Hey all,

This topic is to discuss how you deal with heaven & hell in your stories. Personally, a lot of my stories are Christian in everything (God, Jesus, Heaven...) or have their allegorical equivalent. What about all of your stories?

Cool topic!
Well, so far I've got a Heaven and Hell, but I haven't really got around to sorting out the details of either. I haven't really worked out too much beyond my elves (I love my elves) and their beliefs, but I've got some ideas of places. When the elves die (natural deaths, that is), their Spirits go to a "Heaven" for now. I'm also toying with the idea of separating Spirits from Souls, and having a Soul be the perfect, immortal body gained after death, and there would be this place called The Valley of Souls, where perfect bodies lie sleeping under trees, waiting to be filled, etc. That's the beginning of my Heaven (I've got another Heaven made for Spirit Keepers, but I won't get into that right now). Hell I haven't really though about yet. However, you've now stimulated my creative juices, so I'll probably be giving it some thought soon.

In my world, souls wait for the end of the world to be judged, at which point they either go to a place of torment, or they are given eternal life, and live in constant fellowship with their loved ones and Creator.

Elestar - your Heaven sounds fascinating! I love the degree to which you have creatively explained it!

Thank you, Liagiba.

Why not just stick with the Bilbical versions? Seems to me the Bible's got it down.

There wouldn't be anything wrong with doing that, I suppose. But sometimes it can be more interesting to make something up.

Honestly, I'm just afraid to tamper with things like that.

There are some Biblical things you just DO NOT mess with.

That's true, but I do think that Elestar and Mindy handled heaven and hell very well.

True, but I still agree with Jay.
There's just something about this telling me I shouldn't be messing with it too much...

In my stories, even the allegory I started (although I didn't work it out as much as I could have, so maybe it shouldn't count...), I didn't change anything about heaven or hell. I've always just used the same Christian beliefs that I have when I write my stories. I do anything I want otherwise, as long as there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't mess with the Christianity part.

Why that paragraph was so hard to put together, I do not know... my grammar stinks today...

I think you explained it well. I've never messed with that stuff either in my stories. I just leave some things alone, or I don't even mention them in my stories.

Actually, that was Tantis, not me. But I agree for the most part.

We want to point people to God's eternal attributes. This is best done by leaving Him as close as we can to the way He is in this world. Of course, some allegories will do it differently to focus exclusively on certain aspects of certain things to emphasize a particular lesson. This is exemplified in an impeachable manner in Pilgrim's Progress.

Does that make sense?

Oops, I must not have been paying attention
I would say I must have been half asleep, but I posted that at 7, so I don't know what I was thinking.
Anyways....

With me, the people are judged on their deeds, and either put into the dark realm, or the spirit realm. The dark realm (obviously ) is Hell, a place of torment in a different realm where you spend an eternity of pain and suffering for every cruel deed you have done. In the spirit realm (Heaven) you live forever with all the other souls that have passed on to the great beyond, and it's a good place.

I think the thing to remember when writing about a Heaven/Hell for your fantasy worlds is that they're fantasy worlds. I have heard/read several people saying that some things you don't mess with, but if the ultimate goal in your writing is to honor God,then I think there is freedom to creatively portray even Heaven & Hell as best fits your purpose.

The problem is that heaven and hell are spiritual locations, not physical. They transcend our reality and further more, when the Bible says something is a certain way, who are we to add, change, or take away from it?

Well, that's entirely possible. You are simply setting your story in a particular theological period.

You make a good point, and I agree with your logic. However, I think there is a middle ground to be had in this matter. If say, all descriptions of Heaven/Hell are derived from characters' perceptions/beliefs rather than from narrative description (the author describing them) then you are not saying that Heaven & Hell are a certain way, rather you're showing that your characters' picture them differently than the Bible leads us to. This allows creativity without changing what the Bible says.

Another option is to have Human souls in your world (if their are humans) go to a heaven or a hell, but have different afterlife options for non-humans. This is similar what Tolkien does in the Silmarillion when he says that Elves' souls pass to the Halls of Mandos until they are reborn and Men's souls pass out of the World altogether with no specifics as to where they go from there.

In one of my worlds, a fairy-like race was made from plants and grew out of the earth like plants and when they died their bodies turned to piles of bone-shaped sticks which were placed back in the earth, where they would decompose and fertilize the soil for new plants to grow, facilitating a sort of cycle of rebirth. But these were sprites, not humans so it didn't contradict Scripture.
In Christ,
Jordan

You bring up a good point: Let me answer it in my way.

The sin occurred when Eve chose to eat the fruit: It was not eating the fruit itself, it was disobeying the command. The fruit gave her knowledge of good and evil, as a consequence of eating it. This was our first experience of evil.

Angels, however appear to have always possessed the understanding of evil, but remained perfect. Therefor: when they chose between good and evil, they were educated enough that their choice would have eternal consequences. Because we sinned without the same knowledge (the concept of evil), we are offered a chance to be redeemed. However, it should be noticed that we receive the same reward as angels. Angels dwell in heaven, we one day will. Demons are ultimately destined for the lake of fire, and so are all unrepentant sinners.

So you see, while the effect evil has on different creature will be different, the consequences are the same for all. The new heaven and the lake of fire are the ultimate judgments: all souls but God will be subjected to them.

I disagree for two reasons. One, the fictitious element of our work gives us more freedom when working out the cosmology of our worlds than this. To treat speculative souls on the same level as the actual souls that actual rules are made for is a bit of a stretch. We have no way of knowing how God would handle the souls of our worlds were they real, and saying that the rules applied to our world would likewise be applied to any and all worlds seems like a bit of a hasty assumption.

The Second reason, well it's more like an alternate perspective really, is that there is nothing that says we have to even address the issue of heaven or hell definitively when worldbuilding. Unless a story requires a portrayal of the afterlife (beyond the description of the inhabitants' beliefs on the matter), this is a subject that can be left unexplored if desired. But to say that all souls in all worlds are ultimately destined for either heaven or hell...I feel as if that puts an unnecessary limit on the rights of others to imagine otherwise.

I'm not disagreeing with your theology, on the contrary I think it's very sound theology; but I do disagree with the idea that this logical understanding of reality must apply to fantasy, which is by definition not reality. Basically, I believe that a God-fearing, Bible-believing Christian can honor God in their writing/worldbuilding without saying that their characters ultimately go to either heaven or hell.

in Christ,
Jordan

There the rough: We don't know how he would treat souls in an other world, and so, in my opinion, we should not speculate. However, there are a few things we know for sure:

1. Heaven and Hell are the ultimate destinations of all souls other than God. You see, Heaven and Hell are the only eternal destinations, and souls are eternal. Not only this, but there can be no other destination even in an otherworld. Heaven is in actuality the only eternal place: Hell is simply the lack of all the Heaven is. They are the only and fully opposed eternal "locations" if you will.

2. All souls go to one or the other. Scripture supports this in that both angels and man will inhabit either one space or the other in the end. We can't speak of things beyond our experience, and so it is wise to not travel beyond our experience.



We do have to explore it: After all, if there is no heaven and hell, to what end is service for the Lord? Christ's sacrifice would mean nothing if our souls were purified only to be destroyed. Why serve Him in any world if service ends in the same manner as dis-service? God doesn't ask us to do good for goodness sake, or he wouldn't be handing out rewards and punishments. Take away the consequences, and it would be better that we had never existed.



Fantasy is firmly rooted in reality. Truly, fantasy is simply the "what if." "What if" the world was this way, in stead of the way it is now? That is fantasy. Fantasy is not an unreality because an unreality is a "nothing." A Fantasy is simply an alternate reality, and should only alternate from ours on points we are given freedom to speculate about. Heaven and Hell are spiritual absolutes, and therefore override and are over all realities, real or imagined.

Again, remember that you character have no reason to serve Him if they will receive no reward except to become nothing: There must be an afterlife in any Fantasy, and it must be Heaven and Hell.

In my opinion, we are free to speculate.



The Bible never paints these as absolutely as you seem to think it does. You give no mention at all to "the Grave" mentioned several times throughout the OT, and even a few times in the NT which is neither Heaven nor Hell but something else altogether (the Hebrew is Sheol).



The Bible never says that their spiritual nature causes them to override all realities. It's simply not in there.



I disagree. I think there are many ways to write Christian Fantasy without delving into the issue of Heaven/Hell. Several Christian fantasy writers have written perfectly fine works of fiction without doing so.
It never comes up in LOTR. Narnia doesn't get into the aspects of Heaven until the Last Battle, and even then it's FAR from the Biblical description. And it never mentions hell or any place like it.
L. B. Graham's Binding of the Blade series does not explore it, nor does Tedd Dekker's extremely allegorical Circle Trilogy. I think it is highly possible to write Christian fantasy without including a Heaven or Hell, just as I think it's entirely possible to write Christian fantasy without having an allegorical God-figure or allegorical Christ-figure in it.


I agree. And that's where it draws it's power from; it's ability to portray reality in a new and different way, and by so doing offer commentary or encourage reflection on real truths. And I think this is entirely possible without slapping a Biblical Heaven and Biblical Hell into your universe.

Adam and Eve did not sin because they gained a knowledge of good and evil. They sinned because Adam blatantly disobeyed the command God gave him. You said that, but the rest sounded like you were saying that they sinned in gaining knowledge of good and evil. In heaven Adam and Eve will have a knowledge of good and evil and not sin.



Why? Jesus has shown us what Heaven and Hell are like, so why should you speculate. In my writing, heaven and hell are the same as they are in the real world.

In my opinion, I don't think we should mess with fundamental truths like heaven, hell, and salvation.



Wouldn't that be the exact opposite of Christianity? Judging people by their deeds is just like any other religion and does not get across the message of salvation in your writing. On the contrary, it would suggest the opposite of the Bible.

I have no idea what I meant there, so lets put that aside for the moment.

I think it comes down to this:

The spiritual world transcends our reality. But what if the spiritual world is the framework, the support structure, the container, for all space-time continuums? There is Biblical (and scientific) evidence of this. Heaven and Hell exist in the spiritual world. So if my idea is correct, then they supersede all realities: And they are absolutes, for all realities.

agreed

As you said, Sheol is the grave, and the grave is different than Heaven and Hell. But the grave is not eternal. Everyone in the grave will be judged and end up in either Heaven or Hell.


Yes, it can be done. It depends on the nature of the work in question. The main thing is, if Heaven and Hell are needed in the work, to portray them accurately.

I have both. My story is somewhat allegorical, so I'm still working on how to portray certain aspects (transport, mainly) for the sake of the story, but the idea is the same. With Hell, there is a scene I am making on the battlefield, and behind the one side (the world) is this giant pit that gets larger and larger as the battle progresses, with creepy vine-like things coming out of it that drag the people of the world down into it. The people on that side (the world) cannot see the pit until it is too late. However, the people on the other side (the Church) can see it and those who are repenting of the world are able to see it then as well when they recognize their sin.
As for Heaven, I have not gotten to that as of yet. For right now, it's mostly the same concept as it is on Earth. Ultimately, the locations stay Biblical but the way people enter them are slightly different, so as to portray certain themes a little more symbolically.

One neat idea I just thought of could be writing a short story or book that happens inside Heaven and Hell. I guess kind of like Dante's Divine Comedy, except more accurate to the Bible. I know description wise authors couldn't go very far because both Heaven and Hell are beyond our imaginations. But, taking what we know from the Bible, and then taking some fictional liberties, I think you could come up with some really neat stories. It would kind of be like the story of Lazarus and the Rich man, or you could be more original than that.

Just a thought.

Heaven is described in great detail in Revelations, so I'll be poring over that when I start describing Evenfar.