From the ancient celtic myths such as Deidre, to the prophets of the Bible to modern astrology we have always sought to know and understand the future. Our fantasy characters are no different. However, astrology is generally considered incompatible with a Christian worldview.

What is your opinion on using astrology in Christian Fantasy? How do you reconcile biblical references of signs in the heavens to the general disapproval of astrology? How do you use prophecies and predictions in your stories?

Ooh, this topic looks extremely interesting. I bet Arianna will be in here soon

*subscribes to topic*

eru

I haven't had time to fully uncover what I think about this yet, but I'd like to point out one example in Christian fiction that worked, and part of why I think it worked:
In Narnia, the Centaurs are astrologers and seers, but instead of this being a way of looking for guidance apart from Aslan, it's clearly shown that the stars move at the Lion's command.

I rather doubt I'll include anything like astrology in my fiction, largely because that won't work well with travel to the stars. I do (tentatively) include (and, in my WIPs, probably overuse) a few prophets, but I'm not at all sure how to handle this element.

I believe that, on Earth, God aligned the planets and the stars when he first made everything, and in his infinite knowledge he set them up in such an intricate way that, not only would they not crash into each other, but they would show "rare and miraculous wonders" when certain major events happened (i.e. the Christmas star, the darkening of the sun at Christ's crucifixion). The problem comes when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things that proclaim the glory of their creator.

Why can the same not be for a fantasy world? Though I haven't used any yet, I would be perfectly fine with writing prophecies or predictions in a story.

I suspect that the latter wasn't something "set in motion" like that, but something more direct, so that people couldn't explain it away. (For example, I've seen accounts of claims that it was an eclipse of the sun, debunking them by pointing out that eclipses of the sun can only happen at the new moon and this happened at Passover, which is at the full moon.)
That's one problem. But the more relevant problem for this topic is thinking of them as a source of guidance and information apart from God. God has, after all, forbidden just about all forms of divination---including, I think, opening the Bible at random to solve disputes or look for guidance (as one Brother Cadfael mystery by Ellis Peters suggests was not uncommon in some periods of Church history).


Prophecies are a separate if related issue; they are, after all, an established way for God to speak to his people. And the Law includes instructions about how to tell whether a prophet is a false prophet (if something he predicts doesn't come to pass, or if he says to turn away from God) and what to do with each kind of prophet (listen to and obey a true prophet, put a false prophet to death). What I'm struggling with is whether and how to include prophets in my stories, which are (as all human beings are, or are descended from people who are, from Earth, and the immigrants brought Christianity with them) well after the closing of the Canon and the sealing up of all prophecy on Earth---but aren't (for the most part) set on Earth.

That's possible as well, God has unlimited power over his creation.

*nods* But I would say that is another way of replacing God. He wants us to use Him as our source of guidance.

But Vanya asked about our use of prophecies in the original post.

Ah. I won't be having that problem considering that my fantasy world doesn't exist with Earth.

My thoughts are at this point rather under-researched, as I will just watch the conversation for the moment.

*subscribes to topic*

It says in Luke that there'll be signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, I believe it's speaking of the end times. Astrologers are mentioned in the Old Testament, when King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed the Astrologers could not interpret his dreams. It is also mentioned Isaiah

I have not ever really given much thought to it so not much sense can be made of my post. I just thought I would throw a couple of things out there.

Well, one thing to keep in mind is the attitude behind it. Most astrologer types, as I understand it, tend/tended to believe that the stars controlled what happened, instead of, say, sometimes being a sign from God. God seems to like symbolic things, and so He has sometimes used astrology for good by setting up signs and such, but it's still something to be very careful about. But in a fictional world, God could have set things up so that the stars do show something of the future or whatever, because that's how He set it up in that world. So I don't think it's necessarily a problem, but is probably a good thing to be careful about.

Indeed---the reason I clarified was that your original phrasing was "... when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things ..." God is to be our source of guidance and our object of worship, but that doesn't mean that by using something as a source of guidance one is necessarily worshipping it, or vice versa.


Sorry, I should have phrased that a little more clearly: Prophecies are a separate if related issue from the use of the stars for guidance apart from God. Of course Vanya asked about them; that's why I mentioned them.


I'm fairly sure that much the same language is used all over the prophets when speaking of the judgment that was to (and later did) fall on Israel's enemies (such as Assyria, Edom, and Babylon). But then, there's a great deal of dispute about what "the end times" means in most contexts. (But this is getting highly tangential. Sigh.)

And, I think, in the context of Pharaoh's dreams that Joseph won favor by interpreting, and among those whose power Moses and Aaron challenged in that Pharaoh's court, and so on, and so on ... Astrologers and "diviners" in general tend to get lumped together with magicians (in those narratives and in the Law), as yet another source of knowledge/power that comes from "secret knowledge" rather than from God.

We perhaps ought to add dreams to the list of questions to consider, if we're going to talk about prophecies in the same thread as astrology ... dreams, like prophecies and angel messengers, were often used by God to direct his people, but now that we have the full Scripture should be thoroughly tested against Scripture before we accept them, if we rely on them at all. And, on the gripping hand, we have to consider if and how to properly use them in our fiction.

Fear not the tangential thought. I'm finding this all very interesting and highly educational.

Good thoughts from everyone. I didn't have time to come up with biblical examples, so I'm glad they're coming up of their own accord. I didn't even think of dreams, but it sort falls into that category also.

I basically agree with Mark. God knows from the beginning every tiniest detail of what would happen, so why wouldn't he set the stars in motion from the beginning, especially as He often or usually works through "natural" means He created.

There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely.

I agree that God knows (and more than knows ... decided) from the beginning everything that will happen in the slightest detail. And he did set the stars in motion from the beginning. But whether he intended for them to communicate any particular information about events on Earth is less clear. "There's no such thing as chance, only God's providence", and God controls even what happens when we open a Bible at random or roll a die or flip a coin ... but that doesn't mean we should make decisions by seeking guidance in any of these ways and living by the outcome we deduce from them.


There's also a chilling story by (I think) Isaac Asimov (who is, or was---if he's still alive, he must be very old by now---a secular Jew and a highly influential science fiction author) about an astronaut who finds the ruins of a civilization on a planet around a star that had gone nova, and calculates that that nova was "the Christmas star."


Let me put it this way : I really don't want a debate over which eschatological interpretation is sound, Biblically warranted, orthodox, or otherwise Right to take over this thread. Since eschatology seems to be an area which a lot of Christians can get quite heated about, but many don't even realize there's ever been any disagreement on until their understanding is challenged.

Oh, I agree one hundred percent. The documentary I mentioned makes the point that though you may be able to learn something from astrology, it cannot direct or dictate your life in any way. That's the difference between Christian and pagan astrology.

I also agree about the fact that God directs and decides, not just knows, what will happen, I apologize if I was unclear about that.

As for whether or not God set signs in the sky, I believe He did, but I'm aware that that is not explicitly stated in Scripture, and I freely admit that I may be wrong. That's simply my understanding at the moment.

Oh, I just remembered the verse that leads me to think that way... in Psalms it speaks of the fact that God gave us the stars for "signs, seasons, and years." Has anyone considered that verse? Do you think it applies to this issue?

Ah, yes, I understand that fear, kingjon. We shall do our best to make sure that sort of tangent doesn't occur.

If you remember the name of that Asimov story I would be very interested. I've read a lot of his short stories (probably more than is good for me ) and I've really enjoyed his better ones. He has a lot of ideas that I like to sort of assimilate.

I find it really interesting that there seems to be a leaning towards the existence of Christian astrology. I really didn't expect that. I brought the question up because I overuse prophecy in a lot of my books, and in my current WIP the prophecies are a result of astrology, and it suddenly dawned on me that probably a lot of people would take issue, so I thought it was worth a damage assessment before I actually finished the book.

From instances of signs in the heavens mentioned in the Bible, it seems that the signs in the heavens are simply illustrators of what God said He would do or is doing. Examples: He said the Messiah would come, and a star also showed this (Matthew 2:2). God answered a prayer to halt the sun in the sky temporarily (Joshua 10:12-14). The signs had no power in and of themselves.

While it would be wrong to interpret things from the stars alone, it seems acceptable in fiction to have signs in the heavens that illustrate something God already foretold or is concurrently doing.

If you're thinking of the one I'm thinking of, it's called The Star of Bethlehem. It's very interesting.

(Isn't that Genesis?) The "... for seasons, and for years" bit I've always taken as denoting their use in marking the passage of time in longer units than days and months. The "for signs" clause is less clear. (Tangentially, but somewhat apropos, I point you to this post on the Revelation or Bust blog.)


My thought-of-the-moment is that we have at least one example of God using the stars to reveal truth to (pagan) astrologers (the Magi who came to visit Jesus as a child), but we also have one example of God using a donkey to save the life of a pagan (and in every other instance we know of false) prophet who, after blessing God's people, went on to teach their enemies how to lead them astray ... and that doesn't mean that we should go around attaching tape recorders (or whatever the more modern equivalent is) to every donkey we can find just in case one says something. Even the canonical ways by which God spoke to his people have already ceased; the writer of Hebrews wrote to his first-century audience that "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!"


Sorry, it's not Asimov; it's Arthur C. Clarke. The title might be simply "The Star".


I can see good arguments for why it might work ... but none for why it might be necessary after the coming of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, in Christian fiction set in another, different world, it could work well.

One of the things about how Lewis uses it in the Narnia series is that he's not just using astrology as an isolated element; throughout the series, he's over and over showing pagan culture as something that ought to be subject to God. Bachus and Silenus are only "safe" in the Lion's presence, Father Christmas shouts "Long live the true King!", and so on.

I definitely agree.

Seconds!

@kingjon Ah, I see. Sorry, for being unclear.

I basically agree with what Grace has said.

Jonathan brings up an interesting point. (Or, at least, his post got my brain working, whether or not he was trying to bring up a point...) Does it make a difference if the prophecy comes before the celestial indication? That is, if a spiritual authority says "Look to the heavens for this sign of this event," rather than someone looking to the stars and interpreting them as saying "That alignment must mean such-and-so"?

I hope that made sense...

That makes sense. And yes, that was my point.

*was not in here soon, as Andrew predicted, due to being gone *

I miss all the good conversations! *has another mild hissy fit *

Now what made you think that, Andrew?

*chuckles * So, I’m going to shock most everyone, I am sure, besides my beta readers, and say I actually use a type of astrology in my books.

I know. Now I’m really complicated, aren’t I?

It’s very simple, actually. I have a creature called the Diegose. They are appointed as protectors of mankind. They have been created for this function. When their rider dies, they no longer have a master to serve with. So they take their place in the sky, creating a new colored “star” that moves. These Diegose now serve the people in their new place of service. How? Some of them provide entertainment, swirling in different patterns and figures. Others will make patterns that imply a coming rain, which helps the farmers with their crops. They will tell when a thunderstorm is coming, or if the next day will be sunshiny. They help travelers find their way. They are a tool, and asset.

They do not predict the future. I decided against that. That gave them more of a deity feel, I felt. They are not viewed as gods, or something to worship. They are viewed as servants (not slaves), to the people, really.

I believe the focus is important. They are not all knowing, they are not god-like, they do not function as fortunetellers.

This is a problem with modern astrology, and even some of the biblical eastern astrology that we see portrayed. The stars were like fortune tellers, or they were viewed as if they were imbued with god-like characteristics. They were worshiped and revered. Our stars here on earth can help us judge the seasons, find our way home if lost, and even tell us which way is north. The stars are both beautiful, and useful. I see no reason why we cannot include that in our fantasy stories, so long as we portray it correctly.

I am not fond of astrology, generally, because the focus is off.

I think prophecies are separate from astrology.

Excellent thoughts Kait, I was thinking specifically of the Diegose when I mentioned you (Semi off the topic, how do the Diegose know when rain is coming, for instance?)

eru

*giggles * Very off topic. Let's just say my Grandmother knows when it is going to rain, so I don't think it is unreasonable for them to know that, too. Atmospheric changes.

I know when rain is coming... it's not hard to tell.

I guess I'm picturing further in advance, then

eru

*chuckles * Well, they tell you a day in advance. But my Grandma knows a day in advance.