The lie.

It's one of the most controversial topics in history. Is it sometimes right to lie? In some places, is it wicked not to lie? Among those I talk to the inevitable illustration is What if you were sheltering Jew from the Nazis and they asked if you were hiding them? You've just got to lie! Another example always brought up is Rahab, who is spoken of in Hebrews and blessed for sheltering Joshua's spies.

So how do you write of lying in your books? Both those polite lies of society and those that save a person's life? What's your stance on the 'white' lie? Do you portray it as sometimes right? Or always not?

*withholds thoughts for present*

Hmmm...good question.

Well, the Bible talks in lots of places about lying;

Leviticus 19:11 says that "You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.

Proverbs 14:5 "A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness breathes out lies."

Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?"

1 John 4:20 "If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."

It goes on and on! Here are some more verses that mention lying and liar:
Prv 19:22
Jn 8:44
Rom 3:4
1 Jn 1:10
1 Tim 4:2
Rv 21:8
Nm 23:19
Rom 1:25
Col 3:9
Heb 6:18
1 Jn 2:21
Ps 101:7
Prv 19:5
Ti 1:2

It seems to be saying that lying is not a good thing, but because we have sin in our lives we continually do it. It's not right, but we can't seem to stop.
Hope that helped!

God bless,
Bethany

*nods* That's great, thank you Bethany. I think the Bible is quite clear on the issue.

Yet the controversy rages. So how would you write lying of in stories? Would you condone your characters the white lie if it's told in politeness? Is it right for a character tell a lie to save someone's life? Or to protect someone from the truth?

I often think of Corrie Ten Boom and her sister, Corrie's family were hiding Jews, and they were under the flooring under the table, Corrie lied and said there were no Jews, Betsy couldn't lie and said they were under the table, the soldiers looked under the table and thought she was joking them. One could lie to save a life, one couldn't.

Personally I think if you are saving/protecting a life it's ok, as in Rahab's case.

In writing I don't have a problem with showing people lying; people do it in life it's a fact. If you had a book where no one lied that wouldn't be realistic. If you're lying to get out of trouble then it should be shown as wrong.

I believe it's right to lie if you're protecting and saving a life.

I have a dog coming in ten minutes so I haven't time to add anymore right now. Poke me if I don't come back later.

It's funny that this topic should come up now. I'm writing a story in which the main characters continually lie to their parents. I mean, how many people do you know who, upon waking up with superpowers, would tell their parents about it? It's fairly standard for a superhero not to tell his family who he is, for protection if nothing else. But actually writing it I discover that these kids habitually lie to cover their tracks. Even as I write it I know that there are people who are going to take issue.

Here's my more useful thoughts on the subject:

The Bible explicitly states that killing is wrong. Unlike lying that is actually one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Not thou shalt not murder, or thou shalt not kill without need, Thou. Shalt. Not. Kill.

Most people will agree that killing in self defense is acceptable and necessary. If not on a personal level, than certainly in war. The nation that was given that command was ordered to kill by the same God who told them not to. Therefore we are forced to conclude that there are two sorts of killing.

So why is it far fetched to believe the same of lying? If you can kill in self defense, why is it a sin to lie in self defense?

And then there's the question that even if it is generally the wrong thing to do people aren't perfect, making the right decisions in a tough spot. Sometimes doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do.

Hmmmm lying. When I was little NEVER lied. I have to admit that I'm a little less trustworthy. People lie in books and movies everyday, secret agents lie and keep secrets all the time. I guess that the most important thing to remember is lying can get easier and easier, all the time.
These are just my thoughts...
Aleena

This is a matter of much debate; I've read claims that the Hebrew word is more specific than "kill" and closer to "murder", and I've read arguments that say precisely the obvious. But ...


Well ... my conclusion is that, if the broader translation of the Sixth Commandment is correct, it's a general command (remember, the Decalogue is a summary of the Law) that is modified by the subsequent, more specific commands. (More interesting is the case of Phineas stopping the plague ... where he was not given specific instructions but was commended afterward.)


Those are (or can be) two different things: it's often possible to keep a secret without lying, and sometimes without even revealing that there is a secret.

The one Bible story that I'd like to bring up and ask about in re this topic is Elisha's instruction to Hazael in 2 Kings 8. Elisha---who has inherited the command to anoint Hazael king of Aram---tells Hazael to lie to his master by telling him that God said he will recover.

Elisha's words that you refer to are found in verse 10.



Elisha does not say 'God says, go lie to your master and say etc.' In fact, in the next verse we find that Elisha 'settled his countenance steadfastly' (because of his sin in instructing sin?) 'until he was ashamed and wept'. (I don't think he was weeping only about his sin... but that's another discussion).

My conclusions from this is that God had revealed the future to Elisha and that Elisha was anticipating Hazael’s actions with sarcasm. "I know you're going to lie so you can get the throne so just go and do it--yet God tells me that the king will surely die."

Note that Hazael goes away and says 'Elisha told me you would surely recover', when Elisha certainly does not.

Just because one of God's people does something doesn't mean God condones it.

My two cents.

Another thought... if God condones lying in certain situations, what does that say about God? Its nothing like killing... killing is justified in that it's a punishment for sin... it's only a sin itself when it is used wrongly, with personal malice or hate. On the other hand, lying is a sin. Full stop.

Thoughts?

*nods* We should portray lying realistically, like all sin. We don't want utopias in our stories.



*giggles* Your story does sound intriguing, Vanya.



That's a very interesting question. The way I've looked at it is the consequences or 'wages of sin is death'. Therefore killing has in circumstances justification. Lying is not a consequence or reward of sin, but a symptom.

I think we have established that lying is appropriate in certain situations, so I'm not going to add to that.

However, another thing to think about, is intentional misleading. It can be similar to lying, while still technically telling the truth. I have used it before. Again, I think it can be fine to use, and in other instances it is wrong.

*brain is fuzzy * I had lots to say on this subject, and now my brain is freezing... Well, perhaps I'll be back tomorrow, if my brain works again.

Well, the thing is, intentionally misleading someone is no different from lying. You can't say lying is wrong, but practicing deception isn't. There's no difference between saying it isn't so, or just acting like it isn't so.

*comes in to give an example *

My Grandmother had an attachment to this picture. Her stuff, and monetary value, is very important to her. Like a security blanket. It comes from her past, and being unsaved.

When we moved her from California to Missouri, this picture was stolen. We knew it was stolen. We also knew how devastating not having this picture, would be to my Grandma. It was one thing to think that it was lost somewhere in all her boxes in the garage. It was another thing to know someone had stolen it from her and she would never see it again.

So, when we were asked about it, we told the truth. "We aren't sure where exactly it is, Grandma." But while that was the truth, it was also intentionally misleading. We knew it had been stolen, but we didn't know where it was. By saying this, we understood she would automatically assume that meant it was buried in the garage. We allowed her to be intentionally mislead by our answer, in an effort to protect her, because believe me, it was a form of protection to not tell my Grandmother what had happened.

That is what I mean by intentionally misleading. Sometime this is wrong. We intentionally mislead people because it will make life easier on us. I think that's wrong. However, if you intentionally mislead someone as an act of kindness to them, I don't feel it is wrong.

Like so many other things, I think this comes down to the heart. Are you lying for self gain, or are you lying to defend and protect? Murder is for selfish reasons and self gratification. Defending someone's life comes down to obey the command to defend the people of God, your family, the widows and the orphans, and so forth.

Where is your heart in the act? That is what the Lord judges. The true intent.

*brain makes a clicking sound*

I get it now! Thanks for posting that, Kaitlyn.

*agrees with Airianna 100%*

What I was trying to say is, you can't say that lying is wrong but intentionally misleading someone isn't. They're the same practice of deception, and they have the same rules... are you trying to hurt or heal?

I've known people who thought lying, for any reason, was completely unjustifiable, but that deception was fine. That's hypocrisy.

A very good book to read that adresses this is The Hiding Place. They have more than one in depth conversation on it, I think, because they're Christians who make a practice of lying and deception, hiding and smuggling. There are some people who think that it's wrong to lie at all, even to save lives, hence the conversations.

Then there's the interesting question of good character who are liars, openly and apologetically. Sort of like an anti-hero I suppose... notable examples are Captain Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean, and Eugenides from the Queen's Thief series.

I totally agree.

You know what I love about the Hiding Place? The Lord honors the heart of the people involved in hiding the Jews. Corrie will lie in order to protect the Jews. Nollie, however, will not. Nollie believes it is a sin to lie, a violation of the ten commandments. So when asked about the Jew in her home, she tells the truth. "Yes, this woman is a Jew". They cart the Jew off, but the Lord allows her to miraculously escape the Nazis.

I thought that was so cool! The Lord knew the heart of Nollie. Nollie wanted to protect the Jews, but not above serving the Lord faithfully. She was not willing to sin, as she felt, in order to save the Jew. The Lord didn't punish her for this. Instead, he saved the Jew. I believe He saved the Jew because of Nollie's unwillingness to compromise, rather than in spite of.

I find this so beautiful. While I would be right along side Corrie lying, I respect Nollie's unwillingness to compromise on something she believed passionately.

*tosses up whether should post* *posts*

I agree. Lying is more than speaking duplicitously. You can lie with your actions and heart as well as your tongue.



That's tremendous. But I think there was something more to Nollie's reluctance to compromise. I think there was a total trust and dependence in God's will and His love for her and the Jew.

I'm with Nollie. I believe that all deception is wrong... lying included. Because God's character sets the moral law and He is Truth. I've come to think that lying even to save a life is lack of trust in God, because it's using sin as a form of protection.

Having said that, I rather wish Airi hadn't brought that example of her Grandmother. *ruefully* Very uncomfortable... because it deals with hearts in a more immediate way than most examples. I know in that situation I would want to lie, probably just as much as I would want to to save a life, only in a different way. But thinking as I do I could not...

*doesn't want to get into a debate* Discussion is awesome, though.

Thoughts?

What Scriptural support is there for lying being appropriate in certain situations?

*wonders why she didn't think of asking that*

@ Jonathan - Here's a pretty good one.



- Terra

*puts hand up* *has a question*

Where does it say the midwives lied?

I think it's pretty clearly implied. It says they let the male children live, implying that they were there, but they told Pharaoh that they simply didn't get there in time to obey.

I think it's the way one looks at it, Vanya.



But then perhaps we have the issue of whether one should always tell 'the whole truth'.

Okay, guys. Let me ask you a question. What is lying, according to the Bible?

Many people rely upon a man-made, rather than a Biblical, definition of lying. In doing so, they all too frequently wind up condemning the guiltless, those with pure hearts and intentions.

So, I’m a big one for real life examples. It’s easy to sit in glass boxes and say “x,y,and z”, it’s another thing to apply what we are saying to real life. Just like with my Grandmother. So, I’m going to put my views, and Scripture verses, in practical terms.

Some people, who feel led to the mission field, give up the call because they fail to obtain visas. Why? They feel they are under obligation to tell the whole truth when filling out visa applications. If you put that you are going to a country to bring the gospel, you are frequently denied access to the country. So, should they not go bring the good news of the Gospel to unreached people groups for this reason? We should ignore the call of God because we can’t “lie” about why we are going?

Is it really true that the Biblical prohibition against lying requires us to tell the whole truth in every circumstance? When a foreign country will not grant a gospel preacher a visa, is it a lie for that preacher to list his occupation as "teacher", like my good friend who has recently gone to give the gospel to another nation?

Furthermore, when asked by a government hostile to the preaching of the gospel the purpose of one's visit, is it wrong for a preacher, who during the course of his visit plans to visit different areas of the country in order to preach the gospel, to say, "to visit and travel about in your country"?

According to Webster, to lie is "1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive; 2: to create a false or misleading impression". Obviously, "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive" is an accurate description of a lie, but "to create a false or misleading impression"? I do not believe it is. Why?

Well, in 1 Samuel 16, we have a perfect example. Samuel, the prophet, is instructed by God to go to Bethlehem for the express purpose of anointing another king over Israel. Understandably, Samuel is concerned about King Saul learning of his mission. He’s afraid Saul will kill him, if this becomes known. Knowing something about the character of Saul, we have every reason to believe that Samuel was not just being overly cautious—Saul was certainly the kind of man who would kill to protect his throne. But, in order to allow Samuel's primary purpose to go undetected, God devised a stratagem (i.e., a cleverly contrived scheme to outwit the enemy and gain an end). The Lord told Samuel to take a heifer with him and say: "I have come to sacrifice to the Lord". And then what does the Bible tell us? It says that Samuel went and did as the Lord instructed him. So…. Samuel lied? No, he intentionally misled. He told the truth, sort of. He was sacrificing, but he left out the fact that his main objective was to anoint a new king over Israel.

So, according to the above definition on lying, not only did Samuel lie, but God actually instructed him to do so! Who can believe it? Obviously, any definition of lying that would have the Lord encouraging one to do what is sinful cannot be correct. Therefore, from a Scriptural point of view, the creating of a false or misleading impression is not necessarily a lie.

Not convinced? Let's try another Scripture verse that deal with the Lord on this subject. In Joshua 8, God, who "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2), instructed Joshua to "lay an ambush for the city of Ai". Now, let’s be honest, who’s going to deny that an ambush is deceptive? Now, before you say this doesn’t count, let’s actually read the Scripture.



Therefore, if all deception is a lie, then the God who cannot lie commanded Joshua and the Israelites to lie. Again, who can believe it?

So, since it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18), neither the stratagem at Ai nor the subterfuge at Bethlehem could be inherently evil, although both clearly involve what most would identify as deception.

Another example is found in Joshua 2. Joshua sends two men to spy out Jericho, and the king of Jericho finds out. They go to Rahab, a prostitute, and she hides them. When the king’s messengers come looking for them, she says: “The men came to me, but I did not know where they came from. And when it was time to close the gate at dark, the men went out. Where the men went I do not know. Pursue them quickly, for you can overtake them” (Joshua 2:4–5).

The rest of the chapter tells how she believes in God and is delivered when Jericho is attacked. So the Biblical interpretation of her action is that it was done from a heart of faith—even though she lied.

So, I will reiterate that I would not only hide a Jew, but I would do it under the very strong conviction that my God knows my heart, and that He will bless me for placing myself in harm's way to save one of His precious children.

Honestly, guys, there is nothing selfish in a lie to save a life. You are saying that that other person is worth more to you than your own comfort and safety. How can that lie be ungodly? I am willing to be killed for another human being. To endure unbelievable torture. I see nowhere in Scripture that God punishes a person for such an act.

And that is part of the reason why I stand where I do. You are free to believe what you want. Nollie is a woman I greatly admire for her stance. I’ve researched her extensively. However, I do not believe that Corrie is condemned for what she did.

I love where you are coming from, Airi. Especially that first question.



Mmmm. I know.

Can't post extensively now, as our Internet will be slow of the remainer of the month. But I'll consider and study and lurk and return.

For now:

I agree that God judges by heart intent... I do not believe He condones sin even when it's in a good cause. In Hebrews Rahab is condoned for hiding the spies, not lying.

I also don't think the whole truth is always the other person's business. For example John 7:8-10. Christ didn't lie... neither did He tell the whole truth.

And I've got to go.

I'm 100% agreeing with Airi on this one. I think Rahab is condoned and blessed for the lie that she told.

I think we're all agreed that duplicity between what we know to be true and say to be true is definately a definition of 'lie' and is sin, correct?

Well, if God condones this in cases like Rahab's, then what does that say about Him if He is the the standard for the moral law and the Truth?

I have to go to bed now, I'll reply tomorrow.

*nods*

People say that she was commended for hiding the spies, not for lying, but they're the same thing. She lied to hide the spies. What if she had told the soldiers they were in her house? She would have betrayed them, and their trust in her. I cannot believe that's preferable to telling a lie to soldiers who had no right to the truth. Telling them the spies were not there is hardly different in principle from concealing their presence. Both successfully accomplished the purpose of not letting anyone know they were there which is, in itself, a kind of deception.

I'm not advocating telling lies to people who have no right to the truth. And at the moment I think the discussion is over verbal deceit. Although my thoughts are tending towards intentional verbal deceit as the definition of lying, with actions being entirely in a different category....

*is getting confused* But I love this topic. There are lots of thoughts running around in circles in my head...

So forgive me if I'm being unintelligible. I'm juggling several tasks at the moment.

Something I'd like to point out here... In terms of the Ten Commandments, the exact phrasing in the KJV is:



Not "Thou shalt not lie" or "Thou shalt not hide the truth."

I've heard some preachers argue that this phrasing - "bear false witness against thy neighbor" (note the prepositional phrase "against") refers not to lying in general, but more specifically to lying about someone, such as lying about your neighbor's action in court. In Old Testament law, the word of "two or three witnesses" could establish a matter. Some preachers believe this commandment is saying, in effect, "Don't speak badly about your neighbor." In such a case, you would be lying to hurt them, to assign a crime to them that they did not do. You wouldn't be lying to protect them.

I'm not saying I agree with this point of view (I haven't studied it); I also don't disagree that there are other verses in the Bible that make it clear that dishonesty is wrong as a general practice. But I think it's worth noting the exact phrasing of the commandment. Thoughts?

Nope, I agree on the wording, Philli. I've heard the same arguments. Not sure why I didn't think to mention it, which is why I'm so glad you did. You just spurred another medium length post.

I believe that the Bible shows that lying, as a general rule, is frowned upon. There are many verses that support that. Again, I think it is focusing on a type of lying which is sinful because of our intentions and selfish motivations (i.e back to the heart again); however, I agree the Ten Commandments are not dealing with lying as a whole. Bearing false witness against thy neighbor deals very specifically with the type of lying I have said is wrong. Bearing false witness against thy neighbor deals with the heart issue because it not only implies that you are not to bear false witness against a man in court or under oath, but it encompasses gossip, slander, back biting, and calumny. Basically, whatever is deposed as a truth, which is false in fact, and tends to injure another in his goods, person, or character, is against the spirit and letter of this law.

Which means, under this commandment, Corrie Ten Boom is not found to be at fault.

*pulls out Daddy’s commentary * Mathew Henry is a much smarter man, or rather I should say person, since I am not a man, than I, so I think I shall include his piece on this commandment.



Thank you, Philli, for pointing that out.

But in nearly every other case where we read of someone coming to a prophet to inquire of the Lord and the prophet gives an answer without an explicit "thus says the Lord", we infer that the instruction is from God anyway, unless the text makes it clear that the prophet was being disobedient (which I'll get to in a moment)

I think the text makes it quite clear that Elisha's "settling his countenance" or "fixing his gaze" (which I take to mean that he was staring at him), and his weeping, is entirely due to the evil which Hazael will bring on Israel.


I don't see that subtext at all: Hazael comes to ask his master's question, and Elisha tells him to carry one answer back, but that a second answer is actually true.


However, in that Hazael is obeying the command of the prophet. (In his subsequent murder of his master, he's taking matters into his own hands, presuming that God won't act, just like Saul and Jereboam.)


Yes, but ... When we read about the prophets doing something, unless context makes it clear that their action wasn't God's will (like Jonah, or Elijah's flight to Horeb ("What are you doing here, Elijah?"), or Nathan's approval of David's desire to build the temple), we have to assume that it was. Elisha wasn't just "one of God's people", he was a prophet---God's representative to Israel, to whom Israel was commanded to listen.

And, in re the more recent discussion:
Good points, all about the Ninth Commandment forbidding "bearing false witness against your neighbor" rather than lying in general. But, as with most of the moral parts of the Law, the New Testament makes it even stricter. Isn't lying listed in at least some of Paul's lists of vices, for example?

What I don't understand is why lying is considered worse then other acts of self-defense or injury. Violence (any kind of violence, from hitting your sister to engaging in war) is not condoned in the bible either, and yet we don't ever get into these sorts of discussions over that. What's the difference between beating up a thief who wants to steal your wallet or simply lying to him about it? (except that the latter might not work very well, but you never know. For the sake of examples, leave it alone, all you self-defense nerds.)

The Bible condones self defense, Katie. And God tells His people to not only defend themselves and their families, but He also bids them go to war for certain things.

Just like lying, there is a difference between beating someone up for stealing your wallet (which I would personally say is wrong and serves no purpose other than to unleash your wounded pride) to fighting in a war over the protection of your family and others.

That aside, I agree, Kingjon. We are held to a higher standard. But the commandment under discussion already sets the precedence for what the sinful motivation is in lying. Therefore, we can conclude we are to be held to a higher standard of the type of lying which the commandment is talking about.

For example. If I think a gossipy thing to say about someone else, I have committed false witness against my neighbor. Even though I didn't actually say anything bad.

I do not think the higher standards of the New Testament means that Corrie Ten Boom is now condemned under the new covenant, where she would not have been, under the old.

I didn't mean beat them up for stealing it, I meant to prevent them stealing it.

But that's the question. If we're allowed to defend ourselves; why can we not use lying as a weapon for that purpose?

Kingjon, my point was that just because a prophet speaks doesn't inevitably mean that God is speaking. Especially if the prophet's words endorse sin.

Why would Elisha be 'ashamed' when he was staring at Hazael if he was thinking solely of what Hazael would do as king?

Point well taken, Vanya. *nods at Airi too* I won't say much right now... too early in the morning. And I have to think...

But one problem I have with using lying as a weapon is that it's fighting sin with sin. Self-defense in general is not like that... pain and death is the natural consequence or punishment for sin and we're justified in using it to fight sin. Lying or deceit is a symptom.

Ah! Got the question now. Yes, I would agree.

Verse 11 in the NKJV (the copy I have most readily to hand) is "He fixed his gaze and stared at him, until he was ashamed. Then the man of God wept." The construction of this verse simply doesn't make sense to me if "he was ashamed" refers to Elisha; it's clearly Hazael who is ashamed. (If it'd been anyone other than God's-representative-on-Earth, he might have snapped the Aramaic equivalent of "What are you staring at?" But with a superior staring at him, he "was ashamed".)

Okay, let's say that it's Hazael that is ashamed. But why would he be ashamed? I think because Hazael had already harboured intentions of deceit, that God revealed this to Elisha and that Elisha is being sarcastic when he says 'Go and tell thy king that he will get well.. but God says that he will die'. In other words, there is no reason to think that Hazael's treacherous thoughts only come into being after his visit to Elisha. But more than that, I think as I do because if you say that God is actually commanding Hazael to lie, you've got to deal with the fact that the holy and righteous God is telling someone to sin.

Because Elisha has been staring at him? The text, after all, says that Elisha "fixed his gaze and stared at him" (or however your translation renders it) "until he was ashamed." And that seems to me to be a more than sufficient explanation.


Reading it as sarcasm is a level of interpretation that doesn't seem to me to be supported by the text. (Not that it's necessarily contradicted, but again it's dangerous to speculate when the prima facie meaning makes perfect sense ...)

I think that Hazael was almost certainly ambitious, desiring the crown. But he likely saw no chance of getting it (thus his surprised question of "how could I do all that?" when Elisha explains why he was weeping)---and then was told that 1. his master would not recover, and 2. he would be the king of Aram, so he took matters into his own hands. Much like Jehu, or Jereboam.

And here we come back to the original question---is lying always sin? But (except for the fact that they often involve direct quotations from God instead of merely the prophet's voice when someone comes to "inquire of the Lord") you could make the same argument about the places where God commanded his people to attack cities and kill every man, woman, child, and animal that lived there, after saying "you shall not kill" in the ten commandments.

Your points are well taken, but I still disagree.

I agree that it is dangerous and unwise to read things into the text. But I don't see that my interpretation is as farfetched as you lay out. Hazael asks 'Is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing?'... but he wasn't asking 'how would I do that, I'm only a servant?' I think he was refering to the great evil that Elisha was describing and exclaiming, 'I'm not that bad!'

To be ashamed, you've got to have a reason to be ashamed. Hazael was a man of high standing, unlikely to be cowed by someone staring at him.

And your reference to the original question, is lying always a sin? I appreciate the question, but I don't think that it can be included in the same category as killing, as I've said before. Remember that death is necessary consequence or wages of sin, and is only a sin itself when the killing is unlawful. Lying is a symptom of our inherent sin nature, thus, I put forth, actual sin.

That said, I'm not going to say much more until I've done more research into the whole issue, Kingjon.

Wow. Ya'll have so many great considerations, ponderings, etc. that I'm unsure of how to insert my 2 cents.
So, I'm just going to ask a question that I have heard asked in such discussions as these. Aren't we, when we lie to protect ourself or others, putting God in a box? Can't we trust his protection and will enough to do what he asks us to do even when it may look absolutely ridiculous to others? Will he not honor our dependence on Him?

*smiles * I have heard this question lots, Phylis, and I think it is a good question to ask. God is sovereign, and I would be the first to say that we should not place Him in a box.

However, I believe the Lord gives us a certain sense of responsibility to act as He would have us. He gave us a brain for a reason. We should use it.

Here's an example. What if someone is stuck in a house fire? Or perhaps their child is trapped in a room in a burning building. Should they sit down in the middle of the room and say "Lord, I know you are sovereign. If you don't want me to die, then let the firemen get here before I am killed." That person is a fool if they do this. Or let's put it on a child. If my precious little sister were trapped in a bedroom of the house and was going to burn to death, should I try to save her, if it were in my power, or should I trust that the Lord will get the firemen there in time?

We have a responsibility to act. Even when God delivered people into the hands of His children, they still had a level of responsibility. We are the tools the Lord uses. It is an honor, a privilege.

We are the tool to reach the unsaved for Christ. He could reveal Himself to them on His own, if He wanted, but you know what He chooses to do? He chooses to bless us and allow us to minister for Him.

God blessed Corrie Ten Boom. He allowed her to suffer horribly, to be a tool ministering for Him in a dark place. It all started with her stand, though. Her stand to value a human life above her own. She lied to save someone. She trusted the Lord would take care of those Jews who were hiding, and she trusted Him to protect her as she was carted away from her home. And you know what? Our faithful Lord honored her stand, and her willingness to serve as His tool. He let every one of those Jews she lied to protect- gave her life to protect- escape. The Nazis did not find them.

The clocks were safe, as the secret message said.

I don't think lying to protect another is boxing God in.

No, I'm not going to comment. Just ask a question.

I so agree with Airi that we have a responsibility to act. But leaving lying out of the picture for the moment: Using sin (something totally against God) for protection, is putting God in a box, right? SO my question is this:

If God is Truth, untruth is against Him, thus lying is sin, thus lying even for a good cause wrong because it is showing lack of trust which is sin in itself?

I can only reiterate myself, same as you, Cassandra. The heart is the root of sin. Our nature is the root of sin. The action itself is not the sin. Just like drinking alcohol is not a sin. The sin is when we let our flesh take over and become drunk.

Same thing here. The sin is not telling a Nazi that I am not harboring Jews. That takes more denial of the flesh, than telling the truth, because my flesh wants to put itself first. It wants to say yes because then they would pardon me. To tell the truth under these circumstances would not only be cowardly, but I believe that is a sin. Because we are following our flesh. Our sin nature. Or, we could flip that. Let’s say my neighbor is a Jew. I am asked, point blank if he is, on pain of death. I tell the truth. “Yes, he is a Jew.” I am spared, but the neighbor is drug away to a concentration camp and killed.

Which is the sin? The fleshly desire to give in? Or the act of selflessness to hide the Jews?

Or we could have someone who says their neighbor is a Jew, when asked, and they are not. This is a lie. This is wrong. It is a sin. Why? Because they are lying for malicious intent. It is lying to get someone else into trouble.

God looks at the heart of man. Just like He told Samuel to deceive the elders as to his intentions, I believe God gave Corrie the strength to preserve the lives of those Jews.
The two situations are basically the same. The difference is the heart. And the sin of the heart, or the purity of the heart, affects the outcome.

I agree, Airi! I certainly didn't mean that we should just sit on our hands. And as for Corrie ten Boom - while I almost (I repeat, almost) question her lying, I hold her in the highest respect. In fact, I was named after her. She's my hero.

That is exactly what I meant, Cassandra! Thank you!

I didn't figure you were saying that, but I have heard people say it before( ), so I thought I'd address it.

::sees Airi's new post::
The whole Jew/Nazi thing is about the hardest and most emotional thing we can use for this discussion. It is the ultimate, it shows the full consequences of our beliefs. Here is no hiding behind moderates.
I cannot say that it would be right to tell on a Jew. Everything in me is repulsed by the idea, just like I'm sure it was for Nollie and Corrie. You are absolutely right, Airi, in saying that selfish motives were often behind telling on Jews.
But I can't help but question these instincts, strong though they are, to wonder whether God wants us to surrender even them.
I don't know.