Fellows All,

This is perhaps an unusual post: instead of promoting a race, I'm denouncing one. If I'm in the wrong part of the forum, feel obliged to correct me. The subject of this post is "Why I don't use Elves in my writing." Let's begin with a bit of history.

My old Literature Professor was a mad genius named Mr. Mark Fee. He was a scholarly mastermind, a literary crusader, and a lover of all things interesting. Though confined to a scooter by a rare immobilizing disease called fibrodysplasia, he was independently minded and humbling to be with. One of his fascinations was names: their meanings and histories. After spending a lecture telling his students the legacy of their last names, they asked him his. We suppressed giggles as he told us that fee was an Old French word which the English language would later turn into fairy.

The usage of fairies began with the ancient pagans. They were a kind of lowly divinity - like the gods of the Greeks but more moralized and less powerful. However, at this time the fairies were called fata, or Fates. For the most part, they were viewed as motherly caretakers and peaceful folk. Until Christianity, that is. Once we Crusaders of the Cross reformed the Empire of Rome, the beliefs of the pagans were dwindled to folk belief: the fata became less loving and peaceful, and a few of them turned mischievous. The naughty fairies would later become what we know today as Brownies, Trolls, and Goblins. However, the ideal of the kindly fata remained. But the stereotypical idea of a fairy being a winged, graceful, sparkling damsel would not arise until the Arthurian Legends in the eleventh century. The most famous of these fairies is featured in the poem, "The Faerie Queen," by Johann Heinrich Fussli. After King Arthur and his noble knights, fairies had an esteemed place in literature. Shakespeare himself would later use them, and Tolkien would make them infamous.

This brings me to the thesis of this post: "Why I don't use Elves in my writing." The reason is because they're fairies. We know them today as petite, sparkly, butterfly-like creatures that eat laughter like candy and wherever they touch the ground, a flower grows. But this was hardly their original appearance. According to folklore, the fairies were as tall as humans, graceful, fair, and wingless. They crafted beautiful things, and in some of the stories...just a few...they had slim, pointed ears.

Sound familiar?

The fairies had adopted the name of "elf" in the ninth century. Tolkien, with his "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy, brought back the old face of the timeless pagan spirit and gave them a culture. The Elves in Tolkien's books had a Utopian society and a blank crime record. As true to their roots, the Elves were a god-like, nomadic race. This is why I do not use Elves: such divine perfection has no place in any novel of any kind. How can the protagonist go through the story without admiring and mimicking the Elves, because it's so clear their methods work best above all others? Where is there room for development? Would not all government, kings, and peoples in any "believable" story involving Elves throw down their customs and adopt the more divine ways of the Elf? Would that not be the realistic approach? It would take little to realize that, with every kingdom a Utopia, there would be no reason for war, as power would be completely realized. Tolkien pulled it off, but I'm no Tolkien.

And Elves are not only an emergent form of a pagan religion, but they are way overused.

Hence, there are no Elves in my books for these three reasons:
1. Unlike other creatures that "imply" their pagan roots, the Elf is zealously pagan: it's like writing a fantasy with Zeus or Thor in it.
2. They are overused to the point that they are almost expected in every fantasy novel.
3. They cannot realistically exist with non-Utopian neighbors.

If you disagree with my statements....cool! I would love to hear what you have to say on Elves. And be sure to discuss Elves, not humans with pointy ears.

Desiderio Domini,
Pavalini

I agree with you, Pavalini, in some ways. Firstly, I usually tend to avoid elves for the second reason you gave: They can really be over-done in fantasy writing. Really. They can be done right (I've read a lot of stuff on here that has side-stepped the elves cliche), but a lot of times they aren't.

Also, I don't know anything about the origin of the concept of elves, so I can't say anything on that point...about them being pagan and all that, but that was interesting to read.

I've never thought about the fact that elves are almost perfect, so it stands to reason that non-perfect races such as humans would seek to emulate their culture, etc. Very interesting.

Anyways, I pretty much agree with anything you said, so I'm not really adding to a debate here. I'd like to see what elf-supporters say though...this should be interesting

eruheran

I've instinctively avoided elves for so long I can no longer remember why. I suspect it's because I knew them from Irish folklore and they were just too... mischievous for a serious fantasy novel. I went with Fairies, and shaped them to my own opinions. Fairy was simply the name I used for a magical race of my won creation. Something makes me think I used elves... once... but I can't remember what in.

Well, I'm not a good debater, but here goes.

I really enjoy elves. Simply put. I love Tolkien's elves especially, but I agree with you on the fact that if they aren't well handled in a story, it can become a little cliche. Elves can be used skillfully in a way to promote Christian values (anything can) but if overly used, then they just become a fantasy staple. I agree with you there.

You say that one of the reasons you don't use elves is because of their roots in pagan culture. I tend to disagree with you on that factor, because even something like that can be portrayed to show the glory of God. In the Chronicles of Narnia, Lewis used the river god and Bacchus, but still, those characters were used to uplift Aslan.
Dragons were originally the symbol of the devil in the Bible, as were lions. Yet dragons can (and are) used to support Christian values, and Jesus is referred to as the Lion of Judah.
Just because of their roots doesn't mean that elves can't be used in a Christian way.

I think that elves can realistically exist with non-Utopian (as you put it) neighbors. Simply because a nation is powerful or almost perfect doesn't mean that other countrys follow it's example. Maybe other governments have leaders who want power or work for their own gain, or maybe it just isn't possible for a species (like orcs) to live like the Elvish.

Well, that probably just confused everything here, but still, there you go. Sorry for the long senseless ramble.

Everything has pagan roots if you look hard enough. The very thing you write, fantasy, stems from traditional fairy tales, most of which are rooted in Paganity. Pageantry. Pagenism. (What's the stupid word????) Christmas is Pagan. Easter eggs are Pagan. Wizards are very similar to Druids, who are very pagan. Our history is everywhere you turn. It's not something you can avoid by shunning one race.

It's not the past that matters, it's the future. It's not who you were, but who you can be. It's not where elves originated but what you can do with them.

I disagree with you 100% that Christmas is pagan. I think you may have mis-put what you were trying to communicate. You said that Christmas is pagan. I think you meant to say that Christmas has pagan roots, but I agree with you that we have spun it around and completely changed it, so that none of it's pagan roots remain as part of what we do, but we have made it into a day to celebrate the birth of our Savior.

I think this conversation has 'drifted' a bit off topic.

Fellows All,

Every one of you makes good points and, let's face it, pretty much debunk my post. But in my defense, I said in my post that most elements of fantasy imply their pagan roots, whereas Elves zealously promote it. It's true, Christmas, the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and so on, are drawn up from paganism, but they only imply it and have been easily adjusted to accommodate Christianity. But there are levels of paganism we do not tamper with - the rituals, writings, and beliefs. And yes, C.S. Lewis used Greek gods in his writing, but that's because he was a Universalist (Lewis believed he'd meet Plato in heaven). I am not. I therefore do not use Elves. In my book, there is but One God.

Desiderio Domini,
Pavalini

I do agree that Christmas has pagan roots. Let me clarify though, before you have me burned at the stake . Christmas is the birth of Jesus, correct? When the Catholic church was looking for a place to put His birthday, they found the winter solstice. Traditionally in Rome/Middle Ages the winter solstice was when you did yule logs, evergreen trees with decorations, and when people gave gifts to each other. The Catholic church then adopted it and turned it into Christmas.





Anyways, I rest my case about Christmas having pagan roots. On the Wikipedia page I counted thirty-seven different pagan traditions/holidays that fall on the Winter solstice, many of them dating way before the fourth century, which is when 'Christmas' started to begin.

And Pavalini, I still stand behind you on elves simply for the sole purpose of the fact that elves have gotten pretty cliché. But Ciela Rose, you definitely did make a lot of good points for them that I'll be thinking over.

eruheran

Oh.... I didn't mean to start a debate. I was simply using it as an example, assuming that all you well educated people would know all the "pagan" and "Non-pagan" view points and understand what I was trying to say.

I still wouldn't say that Christmas has pagan roots. Sorry, I don't mean to continue on an argument, but here is my reasoning.

The Catholic church didn't take a pagan holiday and change it to a christian one, they merely chose a date which had pagan holidays on it. So, therefore Christmas is NOT pagan, I would say it is a christian holiday with some traditions influenced by paganism, like the christmas tree, for example. But, the christmas tree has been changed to become a beautiful symbol of Christs love for us.

Even if some of the traditions are influenced, we don't do them for the same reason as they are done in their original holidays, we do them to give the glory to God(hopefully ), so it is no longer in any way pagan.

Sorry. Back to elves.

Which was my point in bringing it up in the first place.

(In case anyone is wondering, we've been through the "Is Christmas Pagan?" Question many times, and came to the general conclusion that during the little ice age people in frozen northern countries like to have a festival around the winter solstice and that Christians were no exception...)

Lewis wasn't an Universalist. I've read his theological books - definitely no Universalism there.

(I think what you're referring to is his speculative belief in the possibility of a "Christian pagan" particularly in the B.C. time... which he didn't cover very much in his theological books because it really didn't matter in the long run.)

IMO - elves - I really don't care where their roots are.

What I like about Tolkien's elves is the humanity that he gives them.

For being immortal, for having so much more mental capability - they're still very human. They make mistakes; they suffer for them. (in the Silmarillion, mostly...elves really aren't a huge part of LotR)

They're not theologically correct, of course, but since they're only part human (in effect, not in story) it doesn't make me very uptight...

I have to agree with everything Miss Ciela Rose said....

I don't have 'elves' per say, in my story. I created a race that has some of the features of an elf, but added my own parts of culture and faith--I call them the Vasai.

I will say this. Elves have been used to create a stereotype fantasy world, that is why I don't have Elves in my world. Though I like the idea of making a race that is sort of the most "powerful" per say, like the Elves...

I'm glad that Melody pointed out the elve's humanity in the Silmarillion, means that I don't have to . Just kidding. Earlier Pavalini mentioned that they're almost perfect, but in Tolkien's works that's far from true. If there's one thing Tolkien does well in LOtR, it's portray the fading dominance/glory/power of the elves. And when you look back at the Hobbit and the Silmarillion the Elve's humanity and faults are clearly displayed (can anybody say "Thingol"?)
Utopian Elves are more of a product of poor attempts to imitate Tolkien's product, (elves) rather than his principle (adapting a race from folklore). My upcoming blog post on Tolkien-emulation delves further into this idea.

And now onto the origins of elves...hehehe....
I think if you looked into it you'd find that the Teutonic Alfar/Aelfen/etc. which became the English "elves" originated apart from Greek/Latin influence as did many of the types of fairies (brownies, goblins, knockers, kobolds, leprechauns, dwarves) In fact, not only elves, but trolls, and dwarves as well are also products of Norse and Germanic mythology (in which they are more like diminutive spirits, not deities). This doesn't change the fact that some did indeed have pagan origins (Irish fairies in particular were said to be diminished pagan gods). And just to be picky because I can, the Greeks believed in the moirai which means "Fates," it was the Romans who adapted the idea and came up with the fata. Your explanation of the origin of the word fairy is accurate, but the folklorical concept of fairies is a semi-universal one. Cultures the world over have stories about diminutive nature spirits and to say that it originated from one pagan culture (the Greeks) is a bit misinformed. Again, this doesn't mean that many fairy-like creatures aren't of pagan origins, but I'm one who feels that they can be adapted into Christian fantasy regardless of that background.
In Christ,
Jordan
P.S. - sorry if this comes across as a bit argumentative, but fairy-lore is one of my stronger areas of interest and I always enjoy the chance to discuss it

Seer, nice background on elves/fairies in general. Sounds like an explanation that would be given in an Artemis Fowl book (that's a compliment, by the way)

eruheran

Wow...

There was only one bit in there that is actually correct: There were elves in Tolkien's books. :P Sorry. Haha.

Not sure where you got all that from, but it wasn't from anything written by JRR Tolkien.

Sorry if I came across as harsh. The history of the Elves is completely opposite what you said there.

And a bit of extra history to toss in about the origins of elves, fairies, gods, and etc.: many of them had their root in true history, not legend or pagan beliefs.

How many of you know that Jupiter, Vulcan, and their mighty (and not so mighty) consorts were actually real people? And their abilities were only slightly exaggerated, from what I can tell. Yes, much was influenced from demon worship, but most was, as far as I can see, more ancestor worship than anything else.

So in conclusion....

We can use Elves in our stories (with care like everything else in every genre in existence) because there were real Elves on Earth at one time, and they weren't demonic. And even if they were, that doesn't necessarily mean we can't use them.

Just another theory/history.

I'm afraid your seriously mistaken about Tolkien's elves. They are, if anything, more like real humanity than his humans are.

1: Elves are just cultured fairies.

As with wizards, balking at Tolkien's choice of names is, to be blunt, a bit silly. Tolkien uses terms like wizards and elves not because they represent the races well, but because they are familiar. "Wizard" made the reader of the time think of possessors of mysterious power. But objectively speaking, Tolkien's "Wizards" don't use magic, but inherent power given to them by Iluvatar.

The same is true of the elves. The term makes of think of the physical attributes: fair, light, pointy ears, the way they move, etc. It does not refer to the pagan roots but was chosen to evoke an image. The elves are just the face of the fairies, not the descendants.

2. Utopian Society and Crimeless History

Doubly wrong. The elves have a history absolute full of trouble that they caused. In fact, most of the trouble in LoTR was caused by elves of the past.

In the Silmarillion (which you don't appear to have read, or at least don't remember) a single elf (with some outside interference from Melkor) successfully curses most of elvendom to die away from their homes, at the mercy of the Dark Enemy. His folly also dooms subsequent generations of men and elves who will die for his foolish decisions.

And, this one elf isn't the only one. From this point on, Elvish history is full of lies, treason, and death, all originating from his mistakes. Interestingly enough, he offers an interesting parallel to Adam, just as the true villain, Melkor, offers a parallel to Satan.

3. God-Like Nomads

First, the nomadic part is technically true. The elves left their first home at the bidding of the Valar, and most of them were later banished from their second-and better-home for crimes of murder. The nearly complete slaughter of an entire group of elves (something like a thousand).

As for the God-Like thing, it should be noted that the elves are less god-like than the men. While men are given freedom to shape their lives (within Iluvatar's will), the elves live out a story that was written for them thousands of years before they came into existence. The elves are completely bound to this story, and are also notably trapped inside space-time, unable to escape to a spiritual existence. (This raises a question about the fate of elves at the end of the world, something Tolkien mentions but doesn't clear up.)

The only reason Tolkien was able to pull it off was a back ground history that LoTR readers are largely unaware of. What appears to be a Utopian society on the outside is really a very human race on the inside.

To put it simply, the humans do better than the elves throughout Tolkien's histories.

And finally, the elves are mortal, just in their own way. Any elf can die, just not of age, or normal sickness. Elves die of weariness, poison, wounds, drowning, hanging, etc.

Finally, I should note that the only problem with Zeus or Thor is that they are offered as alternatives to God. Would you object if they were portrayed as subservient to the One True God, Yahwey?

Firstly, did you mean to say Vulcan there? Isn't that.... made up? I've never heard of a real life Vulcan, unless I'm totally forgetting something. Norse mythology, maybe?

Second, I had never heard anything along the lines of the gods being real. Sources! I thought I knew everything about roman/greek mythology.

* sigh * Not Star Trek Vulcan. :P Vulcan as in the ancient god.

Here, check this book out:

http://ldolphin.org/cooper/

The Biblical Japheth was Jupiter, etc. There are other sources as well that support this theory.

Very few legends are simply made up. They are practically always based off of reality.

Vulcan as in the ancient god from where? I've never heard of him.

ITLP wanders in. Giggles slightly at everyone saying LotR elves are sinless. Gives a big wOrd to Neil of Erk's post.
Now, on Vulcan. He was the roman god of the forges and blacksmiths.
That's really interesting, the myths of the gods being based off fact, I'd never heard that but thinking about it it makes alot of sense. A man was a very good blacksmith, so good, in fact, some said his ability was magical. His renown spreads, and people begin to whisper, perhaps his ability is beyond human, perhaps he could be called a god! The rumor spreads, and soon it takes on a life of it's own, now a tale only slightly rooted in fact. And perhaps his name was "Wekan," but as tale spreads it becomes more and more warped, and soon becomes "Vulcan."
Such an interesting concept! I love it! Nerdish glee.

Oh, yeah, him. The blacksmith. I don't remember him doing anything noteworthy... Probably why I don't remember him. This is an interesting concept to explore.

He was lame.

Elves are just people with pointy ears, long life, and skilled in all things nature worthy. Those are the requirements in order of importance.

Funny, my elves are none of those things (only bad guys have pointy ears, other races are just as long lived if their line is pure, and the other races are far in advance of elves in natural things), and yet they are very... elvish. Their orientation is towards Light.

Then your elves are the most original I've seen.

Same here.

Something funny, most people's elves are immortal or extremely long lived, yet they act exactly like humans. People that rip off Tolkien take the beauty, the longevity, yet the first thing to go is any result of longevity. They would be wise, of course, having seen so many different things, yet they'd also be rigid in the Way Things Are Done, and it would be extremely hard to adapt after thousands of years doing something a certain way. Life can get old after a few millenium, elves probobly wouldn't get very buddy buddy with humans, since they die so fast. Yet no one ever mentions these things. I think this is the biggest problem with people using elves, they rip off certain things with no thought to the effect. If your elves glow, wouldn't that make it hard for them to hide? Do they have to smear mud on themselves to blend in, and hide their glow? People they choose them for their exotic-ness yet take away anything that makes them really special, and just make them beautiful humans who are so Speshul because they are going to live really long.
Just my two cents! I love elves to death, but elves that act acually elvish.

Very astute observations (I don't just say that because I noticed the same things).

People rarely look at consequences.

For example, I generally avoid Centaurs in my stories (unless they are outright demonic, in which case I can fudge), because they are so ridiculous to make any sense of. Especially if you have any inkling of internal anatomy. :P

I have finally created a somewhat plausible anatomy for a functioning Centaur, but to do so I had to create a blow hole on his back. This results in Centaurs avoiding deep water like the plague, since they would drown otherwise. They also have to eat food with a very high nutritional density, or they starve quickly.

Stuff like that. Everything needs weaknesses, but those weaknesses need to make sense.

Jay, I want to see that anatomy of a centaur...sounds very interesting. I hadn't put centaurs in my story because they wouldn't be unique, but you bring up some good points. I don't really get the blowhole part, but the highly nutritious and large amounts of food makes sense. Lewis mentions in passing (in the Silver Chair, I think) about Centaurs' breakfasts and he said something like they had to eat large, healthy, amounts. It makes sense. Take how much a horse eats, add some, turn it all into human food, and you've got a Centaur meal.

Centaurs would probably also avoid water just because they're not exactly well-designed for swimming. You can't swim like a human when one is a centaur and a horse swims with only it's head exposed...but the centaur has got a whole human torso on there.

eruheran

Haha, I will probably write up an article on our Coligas (they aren't technically centaurs, since they are also unicorns and pegasuses rolled into one), and post it in here. Eventually. Hopefully soon. They are one of our favorite creations (the 3literati created them for our world).

*ahem* Jay, off topic Just teasing.

That is why I didn't answer in full here.

The point was that we need to consider these sorts of things.

Wow, reading all that just made my mind go blank with anything I had to say. But I will say a few things, whether or not they've been said or they don't sound as wise as others .

Forgive me for backing up a little to the Christmas thing. The Bible says nothing about Christ being born on the 25th. If I remember right about what my dad said, He was born somewhere around Sukkoth (the Feast of Booths). DOn't quote me on it, though.

And Elves. Does it matter very much is they came from pagan ideas? (Or however all you smart people put it ) You can form them to whatever religion you please. It's fantasy, and anything can happen. But I agree that they are used a lot, but I still use 'em.

Well, there's my bit.

In my book I have elves, but they are un-fallen humans. I called them elves because of very elf-like characteristics. They are only in one little piece of history (which I'm {hopefully} going to post today) before they all become humans and loose those elf-traits. Elf is a working name, I'm gonna re-name them when I think of something.

Whew! Thank goodness, if you were a Tolkien replica you might give us all complexes!!!

I personally am not fond of using preexisting races that have been used by other fantasy writers like Tolkien and Lewis. However, I do have a race of people (Orphlins) who borrow some similar characteristics from the elves, though they are still different. I think the elves offer lots of potential, if you handle their characteristics appropriately. So I stole some of their traits and incorporated them into my own work ( *cough* plagiarist! *cough*). However, although my Orphlins live longer than the more human race (Caldarians) they don’t live forever. Most of them don’t even live hundreds of years except for a very few who have been granted long life. I have also stolen fairy traits, making them a separate entity and altering their race to fit my Oneedad population.

Sorry, but I disagree with you here Pavalini (cool name by the way). I’m a big fan of the Chronicles of Narnia. Lewis used mythological creatures and beings in his stories. I wouldn’t necessarily use some of them (Bacchus, for example), but I think if handled correctly these figures are able to be used in Christian Fantasy.

Inesdae,



There is a variant of the Fae species in my books. But they're unlike most fairies. For one thing, I spell their name in the traditional way: faerie. Second, they are not "little people." In fact, they are called Faerie Birds, because that is exactly what they are. Imagine a creature slightly smaller than a hummingbird, and a single color so brilliant they seem to glow. The Faerie Birds, like hummingbirds, eat the nectar of flowers, but there is one flower, called a Livia Blossom, which they consume, petals, stem, seed, and root, and which they require for reproduction. This flower only grows in a the sacred Garden of Shabbathell. These flowers are usually white, but once "every blue moon," one flower grows an emerald green. If this flower were crushed, burned, and its ashes made into a paste, then the paste applied to some area on the face, and the rest drunk, then wherever you are, if you speak the name of the garden, "Shabbathell," and a Faerie Bird hears you, it will come and bring others to your aid. However, the assistance of a bird the length of your thumb doesn't seem very useful, as one character discovers until he becomes lost and is brought berries from the Birds and water from their beaks, one drop at a time.

Desiderio Domini,
Pavalini

It seems they may get tired of the old way, though, and want to try something new. Doing the same thing over and over every day can be boring and/or depressing. I know some people don't like change, so I don't think all elves would welcome a new way of doing things, but some of them might.
Although that makes me think that they would only tire of something long after it's too late to easily try new things....

I don't use elves either. I like them but I think Tolkien perfected the art and there's nothing I could do I'd like better than have them the way they are: including un-plagiarized.

In Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" you get a good look at some of the original mainstream feel of Elves that is interesting.

Dear Everybody,

You have won! My case has entirely changed! The reason I do not use elves now is because I base the creatures of my make-believe world on Scottish and Celtic folklore, where elves are non-existent.

Pat yourselves on the back. My earlier reasoning has been proven entirely invalid.

Desiderio Domini,
Pavalini

Personally, I love Elves. I like Tolkien's Elves, I find the Faerie intriguing, and I even enjoy some of the watered-down mutations of Elves that you find in your average fantasy novel. I love their nobility, their artistry and the romance of their tragedy. I think seeing the majesty and beauty of the natural world fading is something we can all sympathize with to some degree. They seem to personify that lamentation while simultaneously being a living reminder of the Glory that created that beauty.

However, I agree with what Celearas said:



One of the things I find fascinating about the Elf archetype we find in modern fantasy are these consequences that would really make them more alien to us, and mirror our dark sides as well as our better natures, instead of just humans with pointy ears who are inherently better than us.

Having said that, I try to avoid using Elves in my fantasy fiction writing. Unless I'm writing for a specific property that features them (say, if I were to write game fiction), I would prefer to avoid them altogether, because as far as I've seen in modern fantasy, everyone's just riding J.R.R.'s coat-tails. I want to create something original.

The Faerie in my current writing project are more the "mischievous, impish wild spirit" you see in fairy tales, who have a fairly alien mindset to normal people. Since this particular story takes place in a version of medieval Europe where monsters are real, my cosmological explanation for them is that they are the remnants of angels who sided with neither God nor Satan in the great rebellion, and as a result were cursed to share their fate with the Earth itself. They were not condemned to Hell, as Satan's legions are, but they are barred from Heaven and will perish along with the physical world. Many hate humans, many are jealous of them, and most have just fallen to melancholy and insanity due to their fate.

I have another race in a different, more fantastic setting (that is, not based on historical Earth), which is inspired by both Elves and Fairies. These beings, called the Geisper, are creatures who have transgressed the limitations of physical form. They are chaotic in form as well as in nature. They are a race that uses illusion to conquer the world around them as well as to entertain their own jaded tastes. The idea for the Geisper came out of designing a setting where the big two stereotypical fantasy races - Elves and Dwarves - ruled the world, while Humanity was only one of many races enslaved by their empires.

So I really like Elves, but I feel a responsibility to make something that I can point to and call my own.

I just Adore Elves! Isn't that a good enough reason to use them!! I loved them in Tolkien's books. They're magical. To be honest you could find something pagan in lots and lots of things and in the end it's just what your concience lets you do etc. I love Christmas, its a wonderful family time and an amazing witness opportunity. Some people can't do Christmas but hey, we still get on It's just what they feel is right for them. I don't think Jesus was born at Christmas but it doesnt put me off using the name because I think that's what a lot of people want these days, Christ out of Christmas, it's a wonderful time to witness to the non christian members of the family. So although I am biased because I just love elves I just think that one person won't use them, another can After reading Tolkien I dont see elves as little men with green hats on I think he re defined the elves that we knew into something fresh and wonderful! I know I haven't put forward a very good side, but for what it's worth....