Seven ways to be a Knight in Shining Armor with a keyboard and a mouse, as observed by a lady.

1. Use titles of respect. (A gentleman does not think it odd to say “ma’am,” “miss,” or even “Miss Hansen.”)

2. Establish boundaries. (A gentleman knows he is not being paranoid by asking permission for even the simple things - “May I send you an email,” “Is it okay if I friend you on Facebook.”)

3. Respect boundaries. (A gentleman proves his sincerity by being obsessive about honoring a lady’s wishes, constantly seeking to understand her boundaries better, and noticing when others overstep them – “I noticed that this-other-guy *glomped* you in the chat room, and I was wondering what you thought of that.”)

4. Take apologies seriously. (A gentleman encourages a lady to tell him when he has overstepped his bounds and will respect her concerns with the upmost sobriety – “I accidentally invited you to chat even though you don’t do IM; please forgive me and ignore my request,” “I realize that those comments were inappropriate, and I have failed you.”)

5. Look out for her when she is not present. (A gentleman knows when to say “Something happened in the chat room while you weren’t there that I think you should know about.”)

6. Act as you would in real life. (A gentleman will not engage in activities via the internet, however fictitious and innocent, with a lady that he would not in real life, and he speaks only things he would say to her face in the presence of her parents – “I refuse to ‘glomp’ ladies in chat.”)

7. Challenge her to be a lady. (A gentleman does this without trying, for his own adherence to excellence inspires, but he knows when an edifying prod is within his bounds – “Please don’t *headdesk*; I can’t bear the thought of ladies banging their heads against a hard surface.”)

Let not the age of technology fool you – gentlemen still exist, and they continue to prove themselves one keystroke at a time.

Are you worthy?

Disclaimer – in a sense, these things are non-essential. I’m not trying to say “If you don’t do these things, you’re automatically a jerk.” There is also the issue of practicality; I don’t expect a producer to ask for permission before emailing me an offer, and so forth. Rather, these are ways a young man can go above and beyond, to make an extra effort. I wrote this list because each of these things has been done to me, on one occasion or another, and in so doing the sir in question has distinguished himself as something above an average joe – as a gentleman.

Aw, what a cute post, Phili. ^^ I completely agree! I think this sort of etiquette could also apply to us females in respecting the guys out there as well.

I "glomp" girls (usually close friends) in real life, I don't guys. I give them normal hugs. : )

I also think we women/girls should also recognize and take responsibility when we overstep our own boundaries. *speaking from experience*

Thanks for posting, Peanut!

~Calen (Almond)

Aaw; really made me smile this, Philli. I guess I always think to treat guys like I treat my brother, that way I can't go far wrong hopefully!



Boy, that made me giggle!

Déjà vu.... LOL I guess I'll have to say the same thing.


Are you trying to tell me something?

Love it, Phili! Great job!

*laughs heartily*

That's why I tend to "toss hugs" to girls in chat that I'm not sure would want a hug. It's friendly, but not invasive.

Never, Joe!

I think this was cute, Philli, thanks for sharing. I actually know that some of these happened to you, so I knew while reading that you were speaking from personal experience, but I think the disclaimer was good.

Thanks, guys & gals.

Haha! Admittedly, Joe, I thought of you when I wrote the disclaimer. But it wasn't a hint.

Thanks, Airianna. I did not make a single one of these items up, or the examples quoted therein. All of them are paraphrased from actual things gentlemen have done to me. It is personal, so I debated about posting it, but I'm glad a few have been blessed by it.

*nods * I know they happened to you. Some of them were things I recognized.

I love it, Philly!

* nods * It is important to make the effort to find out what a girl's standards are, and then respect and defend them. And have some of your own as well, guys -- don't go to the lowest standard.

Nice sentiment, Jay.

I think this should be made required reading for the male HWers.

While I think this is a lovely thread, guys, not all of these things are things that must be done, in order to be a gentleman. In fact, the first one is not one that many young men do for me; however, this does not make them ungentlemanly. I know many outstanding young men online, and in my real life who just calls me Airianna or Kaitlyn. So I do not feel this should be required reading. I think these are wonderful gestures, but do not define what a gentleman must be.

I like the "extra mile" essence in Philli's post , that is what really defines a young man is trying to be a gentleman. Also, the conscientious nature of ensuring the young woman is treated as she ought to be, that is what I love about this post.

Just because it does not necessarily have to be done does not mean it should not be be required. I would just like everyone aware of this before they post anything they shouldn't.

*nods * I respectfully disagree. Not because I have an issue with the post, but because I think young Christian men have their own duty to know, or find out, what it means to be a gentleman, without putting something before them and saying "We require you to read this". That's like saying "We expect you to do this". I don’t think it is right to straddle them with that, when these are personal preferences concerning the topic of being a gentleman. Like I said, the essence of Philli’s post is dead on. However, she herself states that these are not “must dos” but “I appreciates”. Just my perspective. If you think it should be required reading, then you should mention it to Jay.

I understand what you are saying. But don't you think it would be possible to say "We would like you to read this but it is not necessary to do."?

My question is, why?

True. Kind of defeats the purpose.

*nods * I like that guys come and click on this though.

Most guys (or at least me and a couple people I know) really want to exceed and be "gentlemenly." It is nice that Phili showed exactly what you of the fairer race are looking for!

Thank you, sirs and ladies.

I agree with Airianna that this kind of thread shouldn't be required reading for HW. While I am very charmed that much is thought of my thread - and that God has used it perhaps a little - it is ultimately opinion and has nothing to do with HW specifically. We do not require our users to be gentlemen on HW. That is not our realm. We regulate inappropriate behavior, but we cannot force everyone to the standards of any particular user.

But it seems to be getting plenty of views where it is.

I will say that if you think someone would benefit from reading this thread, you (meaning anyone) are welcome to share the link. In fact, they'd probably be more inclined to read it if a friend recommended it to them, rather than it being stuck up with the announcements or what have you.

I think that is a wonderful idea, Philli!

*peeks head in*
call me a wet-blanket, call me disparging, make up some new word, say it in Elvish, or however you prefer to... but...
while this thread is nice...
and Phili is definitely right...

you do realize that if any guy were to ever to just about anything on that list he'd be laughed at and rejected?

Before you try to argue that out, allow me to explain myself. If I ever called Airianna "Ms. Emery" I'd get a LOT of strange emoticons in my direction. If I ever called Bushy "Miss Bush" it'd not only sound exceedingly weird, it'd be perceived as a joke. #2 is a definite, that's just common courtesy that I'd use talking to anybody online. #3... if I ever said anything like that I'd probably receive the following titles: weirdo, hypocrite, goody-two-shoes, wacko, strange, trouble-maker, meddler,... (and a host of other names of similar direction). Oh yes, no one would say it out loud perhaps, but they'd all be thinking it every time I stepped in the chat room. #7, same response as #3, except it'd be also totally awkward and unwanted from the recipient. If I asked people not to head/desk or *slap self* or something like that, I'd get the in overdoses until Dieki's fabulous chat room would think it was being spammed.

Long story short, everything on that list would be great to see, but more often than not guys that try to be nice get the strange look that hurts more than can ever be told without using essence mapping.

Our sincere apologies for anything harsh above, and no personal attack is meant on anybody or anybody's ideas, but I thought that this side of the issue really should be mentioned.

I think some people respond that way, because manners and etiquette are being bred out of us. There's hardly any need to respect nowadays in the world's eyes. I'm not offended if anyone calls me "miss" or "ma'am" because I know it's being used to respect me. It's sort of awkward at first because I'm not used to it, but I don't mind it now. It's also kind of neat to receive such titles which I thought only existed for my grandparents. ^^

(I was also one of those children who were taught to call adults "Mr. Johnson" for example instead of "Jim." Sometimes it's weird for me to call adults on a first name basis.)

That's my bit.

~Calen

Same.

A good thing to bring up, Reiyen, thanks.

The thing is, being courteous in any way is looked down on in common society nowadays. And yet we are commanded to be courteous in the Bible (1 Peter 3:8). So regardless of how people react... we still need to be courteous.

What being courteous means is a bit more... complex though. Rachel merely pointed out some things that she sees as being courteous. I could give a long list of my own. So could other people. Not all of us agree. Which is annoying, but possible to be remedied.

There are some very well worded posts here, well done to you all!

In my small opinion, I believe the good points that Philly made (points 1, 3, and 7 particularly) don't always suit everybody's character. I also wouldn't say that not doing these specific three points makes one not a gentleman.

There are some people who, if they used the title 'miss' in reference to me, I would not find this strange at all. Yet there are others who would use a nickname of mine, and equally, I would not find this strange.

As with glomps: there are some sirs that greet with a virtual glomp, and still others who don't. In my eyes, neither are wrong if it does not contradict the person's character.

Even though they may do things a little differently, I still count these young men to be gentlemen.

That's my very tentative $.02, anyway.

Nicely said, Bushy. And I agree that being polite is something that is disappearing from this world, not only from men but also women. I never called anyone Mr/Mrs ... I think that's more of an American/Homeschool thing? If someone called me Miss Hodgson or Ma'am I really wouldn't like it and I'd probably request that they didn't. However it's more just personal preference.

Reiyen, I understand where you are coming from. Let me explain.

While I am far from my feminist tendencies, I do occasionally see myself slipping up from time to time. You see, a few months ago, a young man offered to carry something for me. It was a heavy box, not something trivial, and my first reaction was “No, that’s okay, Dan.” O.O

Now, before all the girls start posting that they do this and why it is wrong, I’m first going to say it isn’t wrong in and of itself. However, where my “No that’s okay” came from, was. My immediate, inward response was, “No! I can do it, I’m fully capable, I throw hay bales for goodness sakes!” That was a wrong response. Because I had the “anything you can do, I can do better,” response. Dan was trying to be respectful. He was not in any way saying I couldn’t carry the box. He was offering to do it for me so I didn’t have to. And that was not only an act of service, but a generous step. And what did I do? Basically I spat on his gesture. I mean I was nice and sweet about it. Dan’s very nice, I would never have been mean. However, I certainly didn’t encourage him to continue to step out and try to be a gentleman.

Guys are fully responsible for whether or not they are gentlemen, but I think girls often contribute to the lack of gentlemanly behavior. I make it a point to praise the different men in my life when they do something that is frowned upon by society, but shows they are trying to respect me in a culture that doesn’t respect me.

Another example, opening doors. Do you know how few guys do that one simple act? Can I get the door myself? Yes. There is no way I would stand outside of Wal-Mart, waiting for a guy to open the door for me. But when my brothers are with me, they open the doors. When my Daddy is with me, he opens them. And when another of the young men we know, who try to respect young women, gets to the door first, they’ll open it for me. Some girls laugh at this, or would make a point to emasculate a man who did this for them. Shame on them!

All that to say, Reiyen, I know it can be tough when girls do this. But remember, self reliance has been hammered into us to the point where it has poisoned some of our thinking. Being a gentleman does not rely on the cooperation of women, but it certainly makes it easier to serve. As a side note, my brothers don’t go out of their way to open doors for teenage girls who are not young ladies at all. They will for an older woman or probably any of the girls on this site, but for those girls who would sneer at, and totally have no appreciation for their gesture- but we aren’t talking about that.

Manners and courtesy are fast disappearing in our world. Anywhere from not holding doors open, to the man expecting the woman to pick up the check. But that doesn’t mean they have to disappear from us.

As a side note, like I said on HWSF, I don’t prefer being called Miss over Kaitlyn, but I wouldn’t throw a fit about it. However, if I have a parent who specifically wants their children to call me Miss out of respect, I never open my mouth on the subject. Part of me being respectful, is honoring what others feel is an act of respect towards me.

Sorry for going on so long.

As far as titles of respect, I usually find out what people would like to be called, and call them that. I do use many titles of respect with my mother...

As far as the rest: it's always nice to know that there are young women out there who would prefer gentlemanly conduct, even on the Internet.

Lots of wonderful, well-thought-out posts, everyone. A bit of a reminder from the author, however - this thread wasn't intended as a list of "thou shalt and shalt not's." I don't have authority; I'm not even backing this up with Scripture, directly. What I am doing is speaking from experience. I am telling you the truth - these things have been done to me, and here is how they impacted my life and my perception.

However, I said myself in the original post that this wasn't a list of requirements. You're not a jerk if you don't do all of these things, and doing all of these things isn't a "magic formula" for becoming an "instant gentleman," either. Not everyone is going to agree on what is proper and respectable, and that's fine. I didn't start this thread to set forth a list of rules.

I started this thread to make you think. It's my honest assessment that many otherwise excellent young men haven't even thought to do some of these things, partly because culture doesn't ask and partly because we ladies don't ask. In fact, the first time a gentleman did #2 to me, I was floored. I could not believe what I was reading. Mentally, I had a bit of an "Why are you even asking?" reaction; I almost felt sorry for him because he sounded nervous. I was just beyond amazed that he would take the care to ask - I'd never expected anyone to ask, because they never did. I hadn't even thought of it. But after I mulled over it (and he continued to do similarly gentlemanly things), I realized what a beautiful example he was setting. He sets his own bar high and goes to great lengths to prove it. He goes above and beyond. And that is why I wrote this list, to collect some of the things he and others have done for me to prove themselves and set themselves apart. They will not settle for acting "normal," "average," or "just decent." They are gentlemen.

That is why I posted this list. I wanted to express gratefulness for what has been done to me, praise those that are doing these things (for they know who they are), and challenge those that may not have thought to do these things. I wanted to make you think and pray. If, between you and the Lord, you have your reasons for not doing these things, that is not my business. I'm not going to condemn you for not doing these things. Therefore, you don't need to justify yourself out of this list. Not for my benefit. If you feel the need to justify yourself on this thread, I'd challenge you to consider why you feel that need. Just a thought.


Moving on, Reiyen, I very much sympathize with your position. However, I don't feel that scorn is a reason not to do what you feel led to do. If you feel convicted to do these things (and I'm not making a judgment on whether or not you do), then shouldn't you do them for the Lord regardless of what the world thinks? Would you drop your other convictions if the world started scorning you for them? I think not.

At any rate, I can say with all my heart that you wouldn't get any scorn for me over those things - only respect.

I'm going to nitpick, though. "Ms." is NOT the same as "Miss." "Miss" is a feminine title suitable for an unmarried lady that considers herself under her father's authority, regardless of age. "Ms." (pronounced miz) is a feminist title for unmarried women who consider themselves independent. Look it up - "Ms." is the name of a feminist magazine. Ick. [/endnitpick]

Oh, Jay... if you can make a list of other ideas, you should write it and share it.

As a further disclaimer to my own post... the most gentlemanly sir I know does not do #1, ever. He has a personal system for what he prefers to call people, and I respect him all the more for following it. I know what when he calls me by his preferred name, it's his way of being respectful and honest. Just something for y'all to mull over.

Yes ma'am, I totally agree!!!

Hmm... well I might be able to try my hand at that. You should ask Carissa though, she can help you too. She'd love this thread.

D'ya think she's too busy with the baby? Otherwise, I'll try to find a moment where I can politely bug her. Thanks for the suggestion!

Now, Sir Reiyen; when I do occasionally drop in a mister or miss before a name online, I find that people accept it quite normally. As I did with your name a second ago . I guess it would depend on your upbringing and such but I was always taught mister and misses and miss and sir. Nowandays looking around me and seeing "hey Joe" "hi Mary" from children to adults, I don't really like it. I will say to people my age IRL "hello miss (insertpeoplemyagethatIknowhere)" and they normally say hello and we carry on our buisness. Maybe it's just me? But it seems quite fine!

I agree with Sven, maybe it is just the culture where you live. Where we live it is respected and honored whenever people here go above and beyond. It is something more normal here. I am surprised and distressed that you have not gotten the "nice young man" from your culture and friends. That is something I take for granted here.

She should be able to, especially if you give her a hint about using it as an essay for her writing hour.

Indeed Ael, I and Ael here have been raised where you are expected to go above and beyond the culture (even though sometimes we fail...). Or; in a sense rebel against the flow of the world. Do what others do not. It's in our blood to open the doors for ladies and to say please and thank you... but that isn't us; it's our parents! They are the ones that headed that up!

Here is where I disagree with my brother. It is not our parents but it is the way we were brought up and in our decision to continue and follow that. I don't think fear of rejection should be what hinders you to do those things, if the reason you are doing that is for acceptance then you are understanding it wrong. I honor my sisters and they never receive it and they always push me away. What you can do is pray for your future wife who will receive your honor and practice that on other people if you want to come at it from that perspective. But I am sure I am wrong in something I am saying, just listen to Sir Emeth and do what he says.

Well Ael I was saying that we have learned these values from our parents and then continued them on, I don't want to take all the credit!

That is a very wise statement, Aeleknight. It is something I often correct people on, because they either think I became the way I did on my own (the culture) or because I had the parents I did (homeschool circles).

Both are wrong. I am who I am because my parents played an influence on my life, and I chose to emulate what they mirrored for me. I am not my parents, I am different, but I bear witness to the teachings they instilled in me.

That is the perfect explanation, Miss Airianna, Thank you.

You are welcome, sir.

Well indeed, they set a path and values that they believed in. It was my choice whether to follow them or not. I find that most of what my parents believe in is biblical, so I follow that. I don't do exactly what my parents do just because they do them. I simply see what they do, run it through evidence and logic, pray on it. And then follow it or not.

I wasn't saying that you didn't, Namor, sorry if it sounded that way. I was just... talking. I do a lot of that.

Aww you are alright! I'm just talking as well!

I would just like to quickly say thankyou, Philly, for posting this. You meant it to be a thought-provoking and challenging post, and it was. This whole thread is very insightful.

As was I.

Thank you, Aussie.