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 Post subject: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: March 20th, 2010, 1:54 pm 
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In my story, the first white mirest, Elkuund obeyed God by creating the first white staff. His parents, Goshen and Tesera, looked upon it and were saved from their sin of leaving God's Valley. However, Elkuund did not look upon it himself. After he saw the power it had by converting his parents, he left to see how much power he could wield by using it on other animals.

Options for how the dark staff is formed:
1) *Original idea - Elkuund does not look into the mirror, but instead takes his staff and disappears into the forest. God hears their prayers, and tells Goshen that Elkuund is free to decide when or if he will allow God's gift to cleanse him, though God knows the outcome. God blesses them with another son, Lu, with that power to make the mirror staff.

Elkuund comes out of the woods just as Lu's staff forms in the water and offers to share rulership of the world with him. Lu rejects the offer and Elkuund tries to turn him by using his mirror staff. Lu sticks out his staff, and in the struggle Elkuund becomes enraged and stabs Lu in the heart with the bottom of his staff.

Elkuund's parents run to Lu's aid. When Tesera looks up at Elkuund, she is horrified, calls him a monster and tells him to leave them alone. Elkuund runs away and when he stops to drink in a river far away, he notices his staff and mirror are both pitch black and the skin on the top of his hands have turned dark red with streaks going up his wrist. God appears to him and tells him that is his curse for murdering his brother, but like Cain, he will be protected from being killed.

Problems with Idea #1 - Would God allow Elkuund to continue to hold the white staff if his heart is to use it in pride? Would God turn the white staff that saves into a staff that condemns others who look upon it?

2) What if Elkuund looks into the white staff with a heart to take it's power and not as a means of being forgiven? God punishes him for coming to Him in an unworthy manner and instead of just killing him, God casts him out.
While in the woods, tormented by demons, Satan comes to him and offers him a staff that he made with the power to make people his slaves.

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: March 25th, 2010, 4:11 pm 
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I like both ideas.
Timotheus wrote:
Would God allow Elkuund to continue to hold the white staff if his heart is to use it in pride?
In most cases, God gives gifts (be they talents/natural abilities or skills, or blessings (i.e. wealth)) to people and leaves it up to that person how to use the gift. Perhaps Elkuund's staff is like that.
Timotheus wrote:
Would God turn the white staff that saves into a staff that condemns others who look upon it?

Maybe instead of having God turn the staff black, it could be the results of Elkuund's lust for power. I'm thinking of a situation like Melkor/Morgoth in Tolkien's Silmarillion, after he revolted, Eru did not turn him into a dark evil monster incapable of good, those were the results of his decision to leave Eru's presence in pursuit of power. Perhaps instead of the dark staff being God's intentional punishment, it is an unavoidable reflection of the change that has taken place in Elkuund's heart.
Another example of this is God's statement to Eve in Genesis 3 about the consequences of her sin. Some were His intentional actions: "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing" while others were the natural consequences/results: "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Maybe the staff turning dark is a natural outcome, while the marks on Elkuund's hands could be God's curse like the mark of Cain.

These are just my thoughts. Hope they help.
In Christ,
Jordan aka Mr. Squishy

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: March 25th, 2010, 6:21 pm 
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Thank you, very helpful. I'll definitely give it some thought. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the fulfillment of this sign/first covenant is Christ or isn't. If I can avoid a Christ, I'd like to, just to make it less preachy.

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2010, 4:29 pm 
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Seer wrote:
I like both ideas.
Timotheus wrote:
Would God allow Elkuund to continue to hold the white staff if his heart is to use it in pride?
In most cases, God gives gifts (be they talents/natural abilities or skills, or blessings (i.e. wealth)) to people and leaves it up to that person how to use the gift. Perhaps Elkuund's staff is like that.
Timotheus wrote:
Would God turn the white staff that saves into a staff that condemns others who look upon it?

Maybe instead of having God turn the staff black, it could be the results of Elkuund's lust for power. I'm thinking of a situation like Melkor/Morgoth in Tolkien's Silmarillion, after he revolted, Eru did not turn him into a dark evil monster incapable of good, those were the results of his decision to leave Eru's presence in pursuit of power. Perhaps instead of the dark staff being God's intentional punishment, it is an unavoidable reflection of the change that has taken place in Elkuund's heart.
Another example of this is God's statement to Eve in Genesis 3 about the consequences of her sin. Some were His intentional actions: "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing" while others were the natural consequences/results: "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Maybe the staff turning dark is a natural outcome, while the marks on Elkuund's hands could be God's curse like the mark of Cain.

These are just my thoughts. Hope they help.
In Christ,
Jordan aka Mr. Squishy


You said exactly the same things I was going to say, after I read the post, and more! :roll: :D

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"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 28th, 2010, 1:48 pm 
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LOL @ Griffin! Guess that means our ideas must have been good if two people BOTH had them :D

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~Seer~

"I think armpit hair's pretty intimate!" - Roager

"I am so glad I'm getting locked in the basement today." - Airianna Valenshia

"You are the laughter I forgot how to make." - Calista Beth

"Sorry, I was busy asphyxiating Mama R." - Seer

"I'm a man of many personalities, but tell you what? They're all very fond of you." - Sheogorath from Elder Scrolls Online


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 28th, 2010, 3:14 pm 
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Hey, great minds think alike! :D

_________________
Griffin
"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 30th, 2010, 1:40 am 
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I asked this same question in another thread, but I'll ask it again since I didn't get an answer yet: is it possible for a person to be saved without looking into the white staff's mirror? Likewise, and this may seem like a dumb question, can a person be condemned even if they haven't looked into the black staff's mirror?

If salvation is only possible by looking into the mirror, then this idea of the staffs and mirrors makes me uneasy.

Also, when dealing with the black staff, keep in mind that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I really can't see God turning something good into something evil... I like Jordan/Seer's idea:

Seer wrote:
Maybe instead of having God turn the staff black, it could be the results of Elkuund's lust for power.
[...]
Maybe the staff turning dark is a natural outcome, while the marks on Elkuund's hands could be God's curse like the mark of Cain.


This would make sense.

I hope my ideas were helpful in some way. If I seemed a bit harsh, it was not my intention. :D

~ Evensong


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 30th, 2010, 7:58 am 
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Evening L. Aspen wrote:
I asked this same question in another thread, but I'll ask it again since I didn't get an answer yet: is it possible for a person to be saved without looking into the white staff's mirror? Likewise, and this may seem like a dumb question, can a person be condemned even if they haven't looked into the black staff's mirror?

If salvation is only possible by looking into the mirror, then this idea of the staffs and mirrors makes me uneasy.


What about the bronze snake that Moses made in the Old Testament that healed people of the snake bites? It's the same idea.

_________________
Griffin
"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 30th, 2010, 7:03 pm 
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Griffin wrote:
What about the bronze snake that Moses made in the Old Testament that healed people of the snake bites? It's the same idea.


Hmm... I'll do some research on that and get back to you. I don't remember much about that story, so I need to study it again before I come up with an answer.

Thanks for pointing that out, Griffin.

~ Evensong


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: April 30th, 2010, 8:06 pm 
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I believe the Brazen Snake was broken into three pieces by Hezekiah. IT says that some where in the old testament.

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: May 3rd, 2010, 9:02 am 
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Kenton D. Long wrote:
I believe the Brazen Snake was broken into three pieces by Hezekiah. IT says that some where in the old testament.


Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I'll look and see.

_________________
Griffin
"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Dark Staff - How it came to be
PostPosted: May 11th, 2010, 2:32 pm 
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Griffin wrote:
Kenton D. Long wrote:
I believe the Brazen Snake was broken into three pieces by Hezekiah. IT says that some where in the old testament.


Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I'll look and see.


He did because the Israelites were worshiping it.

_________________
Griffin
"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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