Hey all,

I just watched this TED video, and I immediately thought of you guys, and of writing stories, and understanding characters... especially villains.

I do not want this to come close to a political discussion, so don't even mention the political issues he brings up, please. I just want to discuss the exercise itself, and how we can apply it to developing our characters better. Especially the villains.

Most people have despicable villains, villains that everyone hates and couldn't imagine liking. But in my view, those villains are easy to make, a dime a dozen, and not very unique. They are useful, and you can go with them. But I prefer a villain I can empathize with, a villain with motives I can respect, even if I don't agree with his methods or worldview. I have done this even with Dyrgul, the second most powerful demon in Ithelak, the prime arch-enemy of the world and most of my MCs. I empathize with him. I understand him. I feel his desperation, his desire, his hate, his actions, his standards, and I can empathize with his choices. I hate him, and war against him through all my stories, but the fact remains... he. is. real. And he is an awesome villain. * smiles *

A Radical Experiment in Empathy

Lady E has done this really well with Iri.

Yes, she is a prime example of success in this.

SO agree Jay! Except... I tend to like villains that, although I hate them, and can understand them, I feel sorry for them. Because I know their desperation... their despair... the false hopes they cherish. Unless, of course, they're just absolutely evil and don't care. But how many of those are there around?

Ah yes, I love that. When I feel sorry for a villain, I love the book, almost regardless of anything else in it. The Phantom of the Opera is a brilliant example of a villain you can like, empathize with, and even feel very sorry for.

I haven't watched Phantom of the Opera. I've heard some rave about... and others groan about it. Recommended?

Read the book. It is awesome. The movie and play and all those, I haven't watched. I can't give a judgment on them.

Didn't know there was a book. Thank you!

Haha, there is. It is one of the classics of literature. Wordsworth Classics has it cheap methinks. I highly recommend it. It is a powerful example of what this thread is talking about.

*has heard much about this book/play*

*now that she has heard a good recommendation, she will put it on her reading list*

*leaves, and stops talking in splats*

Yes, Phantom of the Opera is certainly a wonderful example of a story that causes you to deeply pity the villain. That would be why I dislike it so much...

** Derailment warning: On that note, the movie of Phantom of the Opera is very artistic and, in some ways, beautiful, but I would issue a warning on viewing it - it can get very spooky (it's classed a horror movie), violent (several violent deaths caused by the Phantom), and it has strange unbiblical themes (human love as a force of salvation, the superstition regarding the Phantom as "the devil's child," etc.). I disliked the movie, but my sister loved it. End of derailment **

Thanks for sharing that! You're right that empathy is vitally important in creating a realistic villain. However, how would empathy be involved in creating villains who are supposed to be the epitome of evil (for example, Morgoth in Lord of the Rings)?

Will look it up! Wordsworth Classics are generally pretty good--the prices, I mean. And they all look the same. *sighs contentedly* I love sets!

** Note on Phantom of the Opera novel: it's available free online from gutenberg.org, since the copyright has expired. If you like reading online, you can find it here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/175 . I'd recommend the HTML version, since it just looks like a webpage.

Thanks for that Evenstar, forgot about that.

Ah, Morgoth. If you read the Silmarillion right (using your imagination to help fill in the story aspect, since it is mostly a dramatic history, not a novel), you can actually empathize with Morgoth. Kinda tough though. The character isn't pure evil, or the embodiment of evil, no more than Satan is. He is a person, with motivations and desires that we can empathize with. Just, they are hidden, and you have to dig to find them.

I think the point is that if you can't empathize with a character, it isn't a person: it is a machine. We can even empathize with animals, but machines are different.

For example, if you have a mist (cliche, eh?) that trails a specific family line, following them regardless of anything that tries to stop it, and destroys them on contact, and that is it, you can't really empathize with it. It has no motive, no choice, no wavering, no emotion or passion. It is like a machine. A lot of people make their badguys like that. I don't think that is good... unless you actually are talking about a machine or weird mist on a vendetta.

Pure evil... what is pure evil? Is there such a thing, ever? Can something be so opposite to God that it becomes His antonym? I don't think so... if there were, it would cease to exist: God's name is I Am, and that is the ultimate description of His character. Evil is not a prime motive, ever: it is a means to another end, and whatever that end is, you can generally empathize with it somehow.

Wouldn't the complete opposite of God be Satan? As he is the primary enemy. Or are you speaking of characters that are "pure evil"?

Satan is the primary enemy, but he isn't the opposite of God. If anything, he is the opposite of Michael the archangel. He can't be the opposite of God though. Neither can he be pure evil. Nothing can be pure evil. At least not the way I see things.

Hmm... I never thought about it deeply, to be truthful. However I once heard an analogy that, as darkness is the absence of light, and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of God. So where God is the least, I guess evil would be the worst.

Hell, then. At least if you go by that, which really makes sense. The Bible teaches that Hell is the absence of God, which is really what everyone who is there wanted, in a way.

*topic creeps toward derailment*

eru

Right.

The on-topic key is that unless you are dealing with machines, everything has some potential for empathy.

*hugs Dawn for link *

I'm going to watch that video as soon as possible. This is one area I really struggle with. I can pull off feeling sorry for Raczr, one of my villains, but Pirzak... He needs to be real, and one that I can empathize with, even more than Raczr. Thanks for starting this!

True. Very true. In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis has some interesting notes on pure evil. Although I just packed my copy of the book and thus can't find the exact quote, he says that pure evil cannot exist without attributes of good.

For example, think of intelligence. Intelligence is a good quality. If you stripped evil of intelligence, it would hardly be formidable. But let's think deeper. How about existence? Is it not good to exist? Truly, if evil were "absolutely" evil, it could not even exist.

I encourage everyone to scout for that passage from Mere Christianity, and maybe someone with access to it can post that section up here for all of us to think about.

Interesting point. But when we are talking about someone (such as Satan) who is absolutely evil (I must maintain this, at least for now ), aren't we talking about evil of character, not characteristics? Intelligence is certainly on the list of Satan's characteristics... it's one of the gifts he was created with, and in and of itself, intelligence is a good thing. But the fact that his character determines the use of this intelligence to be absolutely wicked, intelligence in the Devil ceases to be a good thing for he uses it to enslave and deeive mankind. We cannot say that his existence is a good thing either. Character, I think, determines value of one's characteristics. Satan is the total opposite of God in character, intention and personality--therefore any GOOD attributes he had, infused with evil, cease to be good things.

I think, too, that Satan's selfish sin dulled his intelligence... blinded him. How else would he have presumed to endeavour to steal God's throne? He stood before God and was over the angels with Michael and Gabriel--surely he knew God's absolute power! Yet against all that is intelligent and sensible he rebelled.

Hope I haven't put my thoughts too muddily.

No, actually, that is a very astute point. Because Satan's character is evil, all the good attributes of himself become evil.

I think this is a key concept to grasp, because when you consider what it means to have an evil character, you recognize that not even an evil character can be pure evil: it still has the same basic motivations as anyone else. That character was God-created.

Cassandra ~ great points there. Especially the fact that good characteristics {intelligence, love, etc.} can be twisted into evil. Definitely agree with you there!

Still, I think it's impossible for any being to be "equal and opposite" of God. To be such an absolute, the being would have to be eternal and independent rather than dependent on God for life. However, Satan was obviously not eternal and, like all created beings, he is dependent on God for his very being. Also, the devil and demons are limited in their own power and by God's control in what they can and can't do. "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Doesn't sound like an absolute all-powerful equal-to-God being there {at least in characteristics}. What are everyone's thoughts on that?

I think you are right.

Though I also think the emphasis of this discussion should stay on how we can empathize with evil beings in a story, rather than on the specific nature of Satan himself. The conversation isn't much different, but it helps to keep that in mind.

I just wanted to mention that I thought the video was fabulous. I'm actually going to show it to my mom later today. It was very thought provoking and refreshing to realize how caught up in our personal world we can get, and not realize what someone else is dealing with or their perspective on it.

I'm going to be using this to understand one of my characters too. ^^

~Calen

Very good discussion and points ladies, and Jay. I'm very impressed with this conversation. In fact, I'm so impressed, I have little to say. Thanks for working through these thoughts for us to ponder.

I must say my villain would fail at the empathy test. But that's what revisions are for, right?

Very good discussion. I have nothing to add save what I added at the beginning

eru

I agree Evenstar, Jay!

Warning Spoiler's of Eru's book:
When reading your story I did pity Samsvar slightly. He was so promising as a young man and he was Zacire's best friend. His degredation to insanity because of intense hatred and revenge made me pity him. His demon-possession also made me pity him but on a much smaller scale.

You could try to build on these points to make one pity him even more. So I wouldn't call it a total loss.

But one doesn't pity him after he comes to power. *alright, off-topicness alert*

eru

True.
People would outright despise him for betraying his best friend. (not much pity from that)