I wasn't sure exactly where to put this, so I put it here.

Lately I've been pondering the need Christians have for grace from other Christians. The world we live in is one of condemnation for anyone who is different or God-fearing. As Christians, we stand alone to be bright lights in a world of darkness. So why then is there so much finger pointing and condemnation within our own circle?

There are so many Christians out there with different perceptions of Scripture to how we know it. For a personal example, there are many aspects of Christianity that are considered the norm that are not a part of my belief. However, more and more often, I find myself getting tense and nervous when these issues arise with other Christians, because I know that quite often my ways are shunned or frowned upon or thought "wrong".

There are many things in this category. Modesty, for another example. I know several Christians who dress contrary to what I believe is modest. It is not up to me to judge them, or tell them where they are going wrong. And I don't. It may be just me, but I feel the Lord has given me peace in accepting other Christians the way they are, and not frown upon what they do that is different or against what I believe. However, around some Christian families I feel condemning vibes coming from them about the way I dress. Without them even having to say anything!

After spending some time with a lovely family in Tasmania, a major part in our getting along so well with them and feeling such peace, was the fact that they had grace. They believe in some different things to what my family does. And I must say, as I shared some things with my friend, I was practically chewing my nails off on the inside! Such joy I felt when she accepted my views as a part of who I am, and had no condemnation for me. How wonderful it was to speak openly, unafraid of an attack because I thought differently.

Wouldn't it be marvelous if this kind of grace was within everyone of the Christian walk? How much easier it would make it for our brothers and sisters if we could accept them so easily and without frowning upon them! This would mean we could share with one another different truths we have discovered without the worry that someone will condemn us if they disagree.

After this wonderful experience whilst I was away, I wanted to start a thread to discuss this. Has anyone else had similar experiences? I know that I have been very blessed by so many people on HW who have accepted me the way I am with no condemnation. I hope my sharing these thoughts with you will give us something to discuss together.

I sincerely hope I have never seemed to treat you like this Bush {hugs}

I also wish we saw more of this. I believe everyone has differing views on modesty; I know that I get looked down a lot on, especially when I go to homeschool gatherings, for the way I dress probably because to them I dress immodestly. I am very fussy about what I wear but I like to think I look like a woman! So I like to look pretty, I wear make up, I spend money on nice clothes and I often feel condemned by those around me for looking the way I do. In matters like these I wish people would just agree that we have differing opinions and let each other dress and act as their standards are.

When my Mother first got saved she was so happy and she went to this man and said she was saved and his reply was "Not in those trousers you're not!" I think a lot of people have that attitude, if you don't dress according to 'the code' in their minds they want nothing to do with you.


When it comes to certain Bible truths I think I can't compromise but some people get too silly about it. For instance refusing to talk to you after you disagree over if you're saved before or after you're baptized; I wish people would learn to talk with grace and disagree with grace when possible. I also wish people wouldn't be so judgmental over clothing and certain beliefs. Surely we can disagree and still be friends!

Unfortunately I have found out the hard way that it is actually your brothers and sisters in the Lord who turn on you and hurt you the most. Non Christians can act in a far more Christian way which is rather sad, isn't it? My little sister is very bitter about things said to her and the way people treat her, we are trying at the moment to explain to her about this and I was so happy to show her this thread Bush, I pray it has been an encouragement to her!

It is certainly something we can pray for!!

Well I have to go, I love this topic Bush thank you for posting it and if I get time later I'll come and see what all other people are saying! God bless! P.S Was typing in a rush as puppy is crying hope I haven't done any spelling mistakes

Thankyou so much for your input, Elanor! Though we have had different views on things, you have never condemned me for the way I believe. {hugs back}

The modesty thing is sad, isn't it? The family I stayed with in Tas knew of a very conservative mother who, when observing a little girl in trousers running around the playground told her daughter, "She is an abomination to the Lord." How harsh! It is so sad that our brothers and sisters find it the hardest to accept our differences, isn't it?

I love to look pretty too! Granted I don't wear much makeup, (probably because I don't know how to use it!) but I love to wear sweet necklaces and earrings, or pretty shoes. Us girls love to look nice! It's sad if we are frowned on because we do, whilst still believing we are dressing modestly.

Of course, by this post I never meant anything about compromising, no. What you believe is personal to you, and the truth you have come to believe with the help of the Lord. If I see something differently to what you do, I will not become hostile towards you. I may share how I see something, but I would never openly shun or frown down on you because you see something differently!

I sincerely hope this post helps your sister! I have been bitter before by things said or done to me. However I heard somewhere that being bitter only hurts one person, and that's you. The only thing we can do is give out the grace we hope to receive, I guess! Hope you come back later!

What is "modest dress"? No makeup, no earrings or jewelry, no short sleeves, no tank sleeves, no dresses or skirts above ankle length? (Many Pentecostals believe that. I have family who are Pentecostals.) What does the human race define as modest? Is it dress that causes Christians to blend into the background of non-Christians? I think Christians should stand out. Should women or girls wear trousers or pants if they are a Christian? Does that make them a sinner? Nooooo. (Being raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, I must remark that my views are a little different. ) Should your neckline be turtleneck all the time? Nooo. You should be respectful, though, not being a stumblingblock for young gentlemen.... use your own discretion, your father's and mother's, your brother's, and God's, most importantly.

That was well put, Elly. The discussion is not specifically about what is the right or the wrong way to dress. Some people have different convictions, and I know of both. Some Christian families are strictly skirt wearers and long short sleeved, fairly high necked shirt wearers. Others are very modern, wearing whatever tickles their fancy, from pants, shorts, to low cut shirts. I'm not saying that both of them are right. For me, both are quite excessive. However what I was pointing out was that no matter what you think of someone's attire, it isn't up to us to judge them or frown upon them because of it. We should accept the person they are, not the clothes they wear, or the beliefs they have.

I hope that made sense without offending anyone.

*nod nod* That's a good analogy.

This is something that really bothers me. It drives me crazy how little things can be so divisive within the church. A huge thing in my church is music style. One week, we will sing gorgeous hymns... and people will get upset, because they don't want "that old stuff". The next week, we will sing beautiful contemporary songs... and people will get equally upset, because they believe you cannot worship God unless you sing the old hymns. People have left our church over that, and some have said unkind things to our music director about it.

It's just so sad, in my opinion. Why do people get so up in arms about the style of music, when there are people who don't even know there is a God to sing praises to?

And that applies to a lot of things. You guys mentioned modesty. Another one my grandparent's church had issues with was wine vs. grape juice in Communion...

Just little things like that; things that are often personal opinion, and never worth the debate they inspire.

But there is another extreme to all this; you shouldn't compromise your fundamental beliefs just to make others happy. Then you end up with a whole 'nother set of problems!

That's my 0.02, anyway.

Christians have to find a balance between being merciful and condemning sin, which is not an easy thing to do.

Hmm... it's a different thing in church. It affects all the whole attendance. There are grey areas, such as modesty and music, but when it crosses over into sin, like you said, Jonathan, it gets hard. It's good to take people for how they are, but if you see a Christian you know falling into sin, who should be the one to tell them?

Great topic. My hope is to comment on it soon. Let me just say that one of the things that irritates me most is how ungracious the church is to the unbelievers. Modesty being one of my biggest pet peeves. I think it is one thing we should hold a high level of modesty for our saved young women, but nothing irritates me more than when the saved look down their noses and treat a young girl with contempt for wearing something she doesn't know there is an issue with. I have known people to confront such girls, and they are so ashamed they will never enter your church again. This gets me riled.

It's very sad, Airi. I notice it more and more often. I know a lady who is so horribly worried her daughter is leaving God, and going off the path, all because occasionally she likes to wear trousers around her farm. She's only around 13. I ache for that girl, because her mum sends her to camps, and wants people to talk to her about her faith. I just think that kind of worry is unnecessary, and more destructive than helpful.

I think if the church held more grace for young girls who are new Christians, they would be encouraged in their walk with the Lord instead of turning back in response to the criticism. Does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? I'd love to hear them.

Thanks so much for posting this!

I like discussing different beliefs with people. Something I've been struggling with lately is judging people. I don't mean to, I just find myself thinking things about people before I even realize it. But I'm working on it; I know I don't like to be judged.

I wear jeans to church, as do most of the rest of the youth/college group (and some adults sometimes), and the older members of the church probably don't like that. I've worn shorts a few times before my dad told me it wasn't church-appropriate, then I was a little bitter because I had to wear jeans in 100* weather. I can worship just as well listening to Kutless as any other worship music (sometimes better, if I have to go to the earlier service at church at listen to hymns before the sermon), but the older people in the church aren't even too happy about contemporary music.
I don't mind people thinking differently, but it would be better if people wouldn't look down on others for being different, so I try not to do that to others.


Hopefully that made at least a bit of sense... -_-

I agree, though this is something I struggle with too.

I'm a very cynical person, and this crosses over into my beliefs, especially with salvation. I tend to judge people to harshly, particularly based on music. Not on hymns vs. contemporary or anything like that, but on secular music and such. I'm a firm believer in, "garbage in, garbage out" so when I see Christians listening to certain types of secular music, I get a little uncomfortable and judgmental, which I am gradually learning not to do so much. I have to remember that some Christians may not yet be aware of the messages in the music, or that maybe they do like particular artists and just show discretion on a song-to-song basis, or whatever be the case. I'm also judgmental based on doctrines/beliefs, which I also need to work on. The fact that some of my two best Christian friends have different views than me on various things makes learning such easier. One is more conservative than I am in several aspects, while the other has very different beliefs than I on [debatable] theology.
However, I try my best to keep my personal beliefs, thoughts, etc. from influencing my actions and how I treat my Christian friends. Some I understand are new Christians and still learning what they believe, and others just have different views. But it's good to be able to talk about it respectfully. I also try to remember that other Christians could just as easily judge me. I like my metal and dress darkly sometimes. I'm also a huge nerd and very weird. So if I don't want people judging me, I definitely should not judge them.
The fact that it causes so much strife is really bad. The one thing Christians shouldn't be arguing about is whose theology is better, and this can really hurt new believers. I'm all for Biblical discernment, and God gave us that ability so we could distinguish between what is quite clearly heretical (i.e Chrislam, various cults, etc.) and what is not. But judgement and judging our brothers in sisters won't get us anywhere.

have both experienced this in my life (good and bad), and tried to live it out.

I'm a big communicator (and the audience laughs at the understatement of the year ). I love sharing the truths that the Lord has taught me, with other people. But I learned a long time ago that there is a way to share info and reach people, and there is a way to share truths with them that make them immediately shut down.

This tool is actually grace and humility. It is choosing to use words and phrases that say "I feel so blessed that the Lord has shown this to me, let me share His gift with you", instead of "I'm right, you are wrong, let me show you your error."

In fact, most people don't realize they do this. It has to be a constant effort of denying your pride and extending grace in all areas of your life. Because we are naturally prideful creatures and think we are always right. But that just isn't the case.

The other thing I think that plays into grace is having a teachable spirit. And the only way you can have one, is by humbling yourself. By understanding that you don't know everything and you still need to learn. Once you have the correct attitude in place, you can then graciously discuss a subject with people, understanding that you could learn something from the opposite party. This doesn't mean you compromise. It just means you listen and filter.

I think this is a very important thing for us as Christians, especially when you are dealing with a forum situation where our words are all we have. You can't read body language or hear the tone of voice used. That's why I'm so passionate about ensuring people use words that soothe instead of perturb. You can be debating a subject and still use words that deflect and challenge, instead of accuse and beat down (even if that isn't your intention, some words convey this without you meaning to). It always amazes me how much more someone is willing to listen to, and soak up what you are saying when you do this, because the tone of your writing is much harder to mistake when you do this. They feel that you aren't attacking them, even when you have a different view of the subject.

So our words should always extend grace. But that isn't always easy.

I agree with all that is beng said. I also feel lucky to go to a church where we don't have that problem (as much). Many of my friends wear jeans to church. I only do that on casual Sundays, but I do wear dress pants more often than anything else. This is mostly because I have a horrer of tights, so I can't wear skirts in the winter. Our music is a blend of the new and the old, usually depending on who is leading worship.
I try not to look down on others, but to me, it's difficult sometimes. With most of the people at church, it's not a problem, but I'm distinctly opposed to most of the music my brother listens to. I'm constantly turning it off so that I don't have to hear it.
I do agree, though. We shouldn't judge people by something unless it goes directly against the Bible.

I know exactly what you mean, Bushy! I myself am a Messianic Christian who celebrates the old Jewish holidays such as Passover and Sukkot. I don't celebrate Christmas, or Easter, and frequently during christmastime when someone wishes me a merry christmas, I just nod and smile because I don't want to have to explain myself. I don't want strangers judging me simply because they do not understand and I haven't the time to explain and help then see my point of view.


Same here! I like to wear a pretty jacket with a good amount of buttons, and make it match my shoes, or do something fun with my hair to look nice. I don't wear makeup, mostly because I don't have any, but I think it's fine that other girls do. I try not to frown upon some girls who wear so much it almost makes their face look gritty, but instead try to see the inner beauty which I know is there.

I live on a acreage on the prairies where the majority of the population is Mennonites who believe in wearing no skirts above the knee for girls, boys must always wear long pants, and no words on the shirts for either gender. There is a one room school house next door, and when I was younger my brother and sister and I (being homeschooled) would run one over and attend recess and play games with the kids next door. The teacher asked us to follow these dress codes when we went over, and some play dresses were bought for my sister and I to wear, and we were happy to respect what they believed in. I think this respect is what people of all types of Christianity deserve. To accept our brothers and sisters in Christ and not try to change them.

Well, that turned out longer then expected!

I have one thing to say: We are a reflection of Christ, and Christ is beautiful. Not only is He beautiful, but he created women to be beautiful. And you know what? What we wear is a reflection of Christ. It is part of our witness.

I am a firm believer, and I believe the bible teaches, that women are supposed to dress in a way that is aesthetically pleasing and gives a good witness.

But, as you girls have already said, not everyone believes that, which is a shame. Because nowhere in the bible does it tell a woman to wear a gunny sack, leave her hair uncombed, or dress in simple, plain attire so she doesn't draw attention to herself (not that that is bad, and no, I'm not saying women should wear flashy clothing that draws attention to them).

My one things are typically longer in the telling than I plan on them being….

*smiles* Here I identify with you more than you know, Azlyn. For several years now my family have not celebrated Christmas or Easter since we have learnt more about their origins. I can understand exactly how hard it is to explain these views to people, and the responses are often less than pretty. It's hard to share a truth God has convicted you of with others when they haven't been convicted the same way.

When I hear of a differing belief, (if it does not entirely contradict what the Bible states) I don't like to label it wrong, but class it as a different conviction. It's like Paul said about people who esteemed one day higher than another, or ate differently to what another believer did. Paul didn't say either one was wrong, just different.

*Nods* I can totally understand how both of you feel. I'm coming at it from a different slant though. I love to celebrate Christmas, just because of the lovely family feel and what a lovely time it ends up being. I don't mind if people don't want to celebrate it, that is totally up to them and their concience, but I find it very hard when people judge me for celebrating it when they don't. I suppose there is two sides to everything.

Lovely post there, Airi.

I agree with Elanor. I know all the arguments against Christmas and Easter, and I respect the people who will not celebrate them because of that. But I have other reasons that I believe it's fine and good. And that is exactly the kind of thing I think we are talking about here -- those things that are neither essential to salvation, nor explicitly commanded/forbidden in Scripture. Those are the areas where grace can somehow be hardest to figure out!

Oh, definitely, Elanor and Grace! I think my post may have come out wrong. I mean, and can totally understand why a lot of people celebrate Christmas, and I have nothing against that fact at all! However I know that it's just not what God wants for our family.

This is one of the points I touched on in my main post, because my very dear friend's family celebrate Christmas, and I was most afraid of what they would think if I said that ours didn't. However, the fact that it did not phase my friend in the slightest seemed nothing short of a miracle to me. "Oh you don't? Cool! We know a couple of families who don't, that's fine. But we like to celebrate it." This response made me feel and then . I don't get many responses like that.

Why thank you, dear Elanor.

Your post did not come out wrong, Bushy dearest. I understood completely. I was just using that as an example.

I agree holidays are a special time for families. I celebrate Hanukkah, which is eight days long and probably the funnest holiday of them all!