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 Post subject: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: December 29th, 2018, 10:30 am 
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Got your attention? :book:

I have been told my writing isn't for the younger end of Young Adults. I encourage parents and youth to discuss the material and I support parental decisions about whether or not a child is allowed to read my work. Yet the stuff I'm writing about is specifically about things they are dealing with. I'd be happier if no trauma ever came into a person's life, but that's not what happens since we all are subject to a sinful nature.

The stories show the trauma of inappropriate sexual activity and suicide. Here are some situations; if you are a parent, would you let your child read this material? If you are a young adult, would your parents allow you to read this material?

1. A secondary character commits suicide because of the inaction of the main character.
2. The main character is video recorded doing compromising things she thought were just acting.
3. Due to #1 and #2, the main character attempts suicide.
4. One of the people who rescues the main character discusses her "party girl" reputation and how her friends helped her find redemption.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: December 29th, 2018, 12:08 pm 
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I completely agree with you. We do our youth (and our art) a disservice when we are too afraid to deal with the issues they are facing in everyday life. What's worse, when we make issues like sex and suicide "off limits," they will be completely unprepared should they ever be attacked by these issues--and probably too afraid to talk to us about it, since we were so strict about the subject before.

The key is context--and that's always the key with art. I absolutely believe children would be better off if they were introduced to some of these issues "organically" through good art. But for that to work, the art must be well-done, the issues must work in the context of the story, and they must be handled expertly with respect to the genre, reading level, etc.

There are multiple ways to introduce a subject. For example, there's a big difference between a) your main character having (or almost having) sex on-screen; b) the main character's friend struggling with the aftermath of an assault that's never shown; and c) the main character's mother talking about the abortion she had as a teenager. All three broach the subject, but all three do it with varying levels of intensity and directness which would be appropriate for different audiences.

I also don't think all children's material is the same. Not every piece needs to deal with a major issue. Some work simply for entertainment is okay, and actually very healthy.

So as both a parent and an artist, I would ask myself: a) is the book otherwise well-written? b) does the issue fit within the context of the book and the characters (i.e., it doesn't seem to be shoe-horned in)? and c) is the issue handled well? Is the response of the characters appropriate, and the author doesn't appear to be going for the shock factor?

Where appropriate, I think content warnings are great. I do them for even my softcore books, because I personally love knowing what I'm getting into. But I think that's respectful to parents and readers as well.

Anyway, in general, I agree--these subjects need to be touched on in children's literature. But it must be done with as much artistic flair as any other element of a book, or it can fall flat just the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: December 31st, 2018, 4:34 pm 
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That wasn't a topic title I expected to see. :rofl: I'm glad you did, though. It's so important that we discuss these issues and integrate them into our art, especially with realistic YA fiction.

I'm not a parent, so I can't really say, but I wouldn't say that I'd prevent kids from reading your books with these. Maybe it's because I've been working with adolescents the past couple summers, but the reality that they live in is far beyond what most parents realize or allow their kids to experience. I had 13 and 14-year-old campers who had already overdosed on drugs more than once and attempted suicide on more than one occasion.

Yet, when I talk about my traumas, we had parents complain, crippling the ability for the kids to engage with these things surrounding them in a healthy manner from a Christian perspective. I just have an intense dislike for overprotective evangelical parents. *cough*

Anyway, yes, I think these are great to integrate into quality art, especially when done well. These are the things that become the next Les Miserables or Crime and Punishment.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 2nd, 2019, 11:55 am 
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YES. What many people, parents, and educators don't realize is that if we could introduce these topics through "safe" methods first--through novels, through church, etc.--then their kids might never need to be "educated" by the world. But when you make a subject taboo, they have no choice but to be first exposed to these subjects by the world. Even if they're not seeking it out, it will happen. When you enforce prohibition, all you have is moonshine.

One thing I would add--as with all art, it's important to "study" youth and paint these experiences in a context that's realistic for them. Children can tell if you're working off of stereotypes or preaching to the choir. Depression, sex, and drugs will always exist, but they change form with changing culture. If someone tries to write about these subjects based on their 70s-80s experiences, or they simply copy the stereotypes in movies, they won't reach kids. Your readers will know you're faking it. They'll know you don't really understand.

I'm not tempted to do drugs because some lowlife is peddling them in the back lot of my campus. I'm temped to do drugs because when you're working overtime, feel like a failure in writing, and your brother commits suicide, smoking a joint to get my brain to turn off for an hour sounds great.

I didn't struggle with depression because I listened to metal, had a tragic life experience, or woke up hating life. I struggled with depression because I was very confused about religion, and my religion constantly implied I was a bad Christian and a bad daughter, and I didn't know how to reconcile that with what I was actually experiencing in the world.

If you want to deal with these subjects, it's going to get dirty. But probably not dirty in the way you'd expect.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 2nd, 2019, 1:20 pm 
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Yeah, well, here's the current state of things. You can rightly assume your prayers are coveted.

My wife is a former Youth Pastor and much more clued in. She pointed out that most of the girls in the 1429 series (Al, Gray, Dede, Jo, and now Tinny) are "really good girls". That is, they do what their parents say most of the time. Even Al as outlier hasn't been too bad lately. Her recommendation was to have Tinny push hard against her parents image since she wants to be in the "in" crowd. Tinny will attempt suicide instead of telling her parents she's pregnant.

It will be difficult for me to write this, but the more I think about it the "righter" it seems. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 3rd, 2019, 11:18 am 
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Domici wrote:
Yeah, well, here's the current state of things. You can rightly assume your prayers are coveted.

My wife is a former Youth Pastor and much more clued in. She pointed out that most of the girls in the 1429 series (Al, Gray, Dede, Jo, and now Tinny) are "really good girls". That is, they do what their parents say most of the time. Even Al as outlier hasn't been too bad lately. Her recommendation was to have Tinny push hard against her parents image since she wants to be in the "in" crowd. Tinny will attempt suicide instead of telling her parents she's pregnant.

It will be difficult for me to write this, but the more I think about it the "righter" it seems. Thoughts?


As far as the character goes, that definitely seems like a reasonable plot point. However, I think having an abortion without her parents' knowledge would be more likely, given the circumstances, and also possibly more relevant since that's likely the route most girls would be pushed into in our modern society.

Writing "good girls" is not bad if they are entertaining and fit within the genre/tone/reading level of what you're trying to write. Our kids need good role models. But they also need characters who show them how to respond to failure and sin. So both are good, but all must be within the context of good art, or it's a wasted effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am 
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I'll have to keep the "without her parent's knowledge" in mind when I explain things. However, she's at a military academy run by what equates to Christian Fundamentalists in the middle of a sovereign state of those same CFs, so the abortion would be unlikely. :blush:

However, Isela would be able to speak to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 4th, 2019, 1:41 pm 
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Spent some time this morning on a planning session. Lifted great ideas from Proverbs; Bobby will be based on material from Chapters 5 and 7 while Tinny will resonate with Chapter 6. Some gender role reversal going on there. :twisted:

Of course, when Dede and Erk got engaged in TDW.1429.7 there was a "Song of Soloman" theme going on... :diehappyhalo

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 4th, 2019, 10:07 pm 
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Those make sense. Seem to be good ways of handling them!

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 5th, 2019, 11:58 am 
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Domici wrote:
I'll have to keep the "without her parent's knowledge" in mind when I explain things. However, she's at a military academy run by what equates to Christian Fundamentalists in the middle of a sovereign state of those same CFs, so the abortion would be unlikely. :blush:

However, Isela would be able to speak to that.


You can do an abortion yourself... I'm not saying SAFELY, but it can be done. Again, both fit within the character, and both are worth exploring, so either way I think it's worth writing. And as someone who has grown up in an oppressive-conservative environment, I can also say that it would be a worthy topic for children's literature to explore. Being afraid to tell your parents something because of the potential shame and punishment attached to it is a VERY real thing in those environments, whether or not the shame is warranted.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2019, 2:14 am 
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Domici wrote:
Yeah, well, here's the current state of things. You can rightly assume your prayers are coveted.

My wife is a former Youth Pastor and much more clued in. She pointed out that most of the girls in the 1429 series (Al, Gray, Dede, Jo, and now Tinny) are "really good girls". That is, they do what their parents say most of the time. Even Al as outlier hasn't been too bad lately. Her recommendation was to have Tinny push hard against her parents image since she wants to be in the "in" crowd. Tinny will attempt suicide instead of telling her parents she's pregnant.

It will be difficult for me to write this, but the more I think about it the "righter" it seems. Thoughts?


It will be difficult to write, but I think it's the right choice. You already know that I love your "really good girl" characters, so clearly I don't have a problem with them being "good girls". (Though I might argue that Katy doesn't quite fit into that mold. She's an interesting mix.) I like having girl characters in stories who I genuinely like and who are also relatable (They may be "good," but you don't have any perfect characters). However, since your audience, presumably, is a diverse group of people, it's good to have characters who also may be very different.

I was always the "good girl" (Like Gray, I guess, minus being super smart and wealthy). But that's not to say that I didn't have my own struggles with fear and selfishness and feeling like a failure. I needed characters who also had those same struggles, and made it through. It's important to write about what we mistakenly view as "smaller" issues, because they're real and painful, too. But we shouldn't shy away from "bigger," less "polite" issues just because it's less comfortable to talk about them (this puts me in mind of Tenth Avenue North's album "Things We've Been Afraid to Say," which is well worth listening to, by the way). Even if the reader, like myself for instance, hasn't personally struggled with those issues, chances are, someone she knows has struggled or will struggle with them, and if books can teach compassion and understanding in those situations, that, too, could make a huge difference.

And the fact is, a lot of readers have personally struggled with these things, and they need to know they're not alone. More than that, they need to know there's hope. There are books out there that have characters dealing with unwanted pregnancies and attempted suicide. I don't know how many books there are that deal with those topics from a Christian perspective. And the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that we need books just like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2019, 8:58 pm 
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Alias Ember wrote:
But that's not to say that I didn't have my own struggles with fear and selfishness and feeling like a failure.


This is why I write; to make Alias Ember feel like a failure.

Oh, wait. That's not it. Let me try again. :twisted:

The Enemy wants us to feel like failures. Like we cannot make a positive difference. Like being depressed is normal and that we're not qualified to talk to "that girl". You know, the one that got knocked up. Or strung out on drugs. Can't talk to the guy who everyone laughs at; we don't know what to say and then everyone would just laugh at us. Yeah, our families shafted us emotionally and now we're so messed up no one would listen to us anyway, right?

The Enemy wants us to forget the obvious: "encourage one another". That we should eliminate isolation in the spiritual family. To risk looking stupid and to doubt we know what we're doing. To forget that our identity and value rests in God's eyes, not anyone else's.

In a somewhat private communication Alias Ember said she had written down some questions when she read TDW.1429.7. She wasn't sure if I wanted them.

Do you realize the impact of her statement? There are seven billion people on the planet but only two of us have admitted to reading that book. Really, I don't care if she has a critique on every other sentence; she actually read the entire thing! She struggles with 'feeling like a failure' yet doesn't understand the monumental encouragement she provided with one sentence.

I write to encourage. Some people need the encouragement of a strong girl story. Others need encouragement to help someone out. Many of us need encouragement to be compassionate and encouraging in our daily lives.

Alias Ember, I was very encouraged by your comment. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2019, 12:35 am 
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Domici wrote:
She struggles with 'feeling like a failure' yet doesn't understand the monumental encouragement she provided with one sentence.

Thanks, Domici. ...Well, I seem to be at a loss for words. All I can do is read and reread that sentence and smile uncontrollably. You say you write to encourage, and you do just that, all the time. I would say that you don't know how much that means to me, but I think, perhaps, you do. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex and Suicide in YA?
PostPosted: April 7th, 2019, 5:36 pm 
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We just watched "Unplanned". Yeah, I hurt. Yet I am more convinced that "Tinny" the book needs to be published and will probably be called "Mom". That means I have to publish the first three books, so your prayers and encouragement are more than welcome.

Here's the post suicide attempt scene. "Gimpy Rat" is Sir Wilbur Lefron, attending the Academy shortly after TDW.1429.2 "Engineer", where he was beaten almost to death to rescue the others. "Cadet Lieutenant" is "Lost Rat" from "Ought Five and One Two Three", and "Hidden Rat" was called "Pig Tail" earlier in the "Tinny" story here on HW.

Tinny tried to drown herself. She comes to puking water and bile. It is cold winter mountain terrain. Gimpy Rat doffed his clothes and swan in to save her.

####

Bile burned as it ran out her throat and nose. Her gut was back to normal, anyway. Her body shook violently as her stomach and lungs cleared themselves. Every muscle moved to generate heat. Another round of expulsion and Tinny heard voices.

"Is she okay?" Familiar. Hidden Rat. Good old Hidden. What was she doing here?

"She's alive." Strong. Warm. Male.

"She'll freeze." Another voice. Almost familiar. Different. "What can we do?"

"What?" Tinny mumbled. Her body still shook.

She looked up. Hidden Rat was right there by Tinny's pukey face. Gimpy Rat held Tinny on her side and the Rat Cadet Lieutenant stood nearby. Was her name 'Lost Rat' or something? No one else had drowned but Gimpy had an old brown leaf in his drippy wet hair. Tinny's lips quivered.

"Hold her still, Hidden. Like I am." Gimpy said. He stood. Tinny huffed; Gimpy wasn't wearing anything but his regulation boxers. His skin was pink scars over pink-ish teen boy skin. Not even any chest hair. He started to shiver as well. "Lost, you and Hidden take off her wet clothes and dress her in mine. That will slow down hypothermia. Hidden, you run back and get the Doctor. Lost, activate the alarm on your comp."

"She'll die before then. I can't run that fast." Hidden said. She cradled Tinny.

"You are as fast as the wind. You carry life for others." Gimpy said. He put one hand on Hidden. His voice sounded strange. "You can do this. Lost and I will carry her back, it will make things faster. Can you do this?"

"Yes sir." Hidden said. Her voice sounded strange too.

Lost Rat snorted. "Not to be snarky, but you need to look away, mister."

It took a few minutes to yank Tinny out of frozen wet clothes and get her stuffed into a dry boy's uniform. Gimpy was a big guy and that gave more cloth to wrap up in. He had put his own boots back on but given her his socks.

"Go. Fly like the wind." Gimpy said to Hidden. He brought Tinny up and over his shoulders. She puked again, spittle ran down his leg. Hidden sprinted and was gone.

Tinny bounced on muscular shoulders. Gimpy moved slowly but with determination. She couldn't see him limping.

"Are you going to make this?" Lost Rat said. "It's a couple klicks away."

Tinny took a deep breath. Gimpy's shoulders were slick from water but his arms held her tight. "She's right, you can barely walk and you're going to freeze. Besides...I'm not worth it."

She slowly bounced up and down with each step he took. He turned his head to look at her. "You are worth it. I promise." He said.

"No. Really, I'm not. You shouldn't sacrifice yourself for me; you shouldn't die. I should." Tinny paused. "I did something stupid; I'm pregnant. My family is going to be shamed and I don't have any where to go."

Snow crunched under his heels as each step brought them closer to safety. Further from death. He stared ahead for a minute and his jaw set.

"Anyone can make a mistake. We all fall short of what we want to do. To be. I think things I shouldn't." His voice was low. He took a dozen steps up the rise, slipped twice, fell to a knee once, but stood up and started walking again. His voice went funny again. "You are worthy of love. I love you. I want you to live."

He turned his face forward and carried her.

"Hey." Lost Rat said. She matched pace beside Tinny's head. "He means that as a friend, of course. There's this other cute Rat who might get a little jealous if you repeated that out of context."

"It's okay. I'm sure it's not true." Tinny said. Talking was difficult. Her body felt warm but she couldn't feel her toes. "The first time I met The Defender I puked on him. I was a baby and I've had a nervous stomach forever. My sister never let me forget the puke scene. Now everyone will have a different story, the slut who couldn't even kill herself."

"You want to compare stories?" Lost Rat said. She glanced at Gimpy and a tear ran down one cheek. "Just between us? My sister told me Mom would have had me aborted if she could have gotten to a doctor in time. She's such a great sister."

Lost bit her lip. Tears flowed. "She told me that right after I had gotten an abortion. My son would be two next month. If you want to compare stories, girl, you have a long way to go to be the worst."

"I...I'm sorry." Tinny said. "Really."

Lost's voice caught. "Some people want to tear you down no matter what. They want us to be sluts, to be objects. If you're really sorry, then accept help. Accept love. We can be sluts for the rest of our lives or we can be women who grew through tough times. Can you accept that there's a guy who believes in you so much, who lives the 'I love you' thing so much that he's willing to die for you? Are you willing to accept being loved that much?"

"I don't...really..." Tinny whispered. She cried. "Not me...I'm not..."

"You are." Gimpy said. "Just believe. Trust. Will you accept love?"

"Yes." Tinny whispered. She pulled his arm close.

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