Hello Friends! I wanted to start an official thread to discuss the progress of my novel titled "Barely a Princess". It's technically an alternative history based in the fjord regions of Quebec, Canada around the early 1800s. The setting is based in the kingdom of Bergendelle, a moderately sized kingdom with a long ruling royal family descended from viking like explorers who colonized North America during 1000-1100 AD, the explorers and their descendants are a combination of Norwegian, Danish, and Dutch (Friesland to be exact) people. There are also other surrounding kingdoms and colonies which were the result of early (1200-1300 AD) French, Spanish, and British expeditions that were fueled by the early colonization by these explorers. Because of the colonization from Europe and Scandinavia, the colonial era technically has never happened but that's a story for another time.

The history of Bergendelle is rich with influence from the original Scandinavian explorers with some outside influence from France, e.g., royal gowns, etc. The early settlers of the region were constantly at war with each other over land boundaries and resources. But as ships carrying men, weapons, and supplies from the mainlands grew less and less, groups began to merge, make peace, and ultimately start establishing monarchs of their own. (Sort of similar to how Japan was established.) The only reason Bergendelle was successfully established was from the isolated location on the fjord and the sheer wealth its founders had, allowing for people seeking sanctuary to establish trades, build fortified walls and buildings, and establish the royal guard. But sadly the first hundred years were a very bloody one, as the wars with natives, raiders, and other kingdoms never ended. One of the early kings was named King Fredrik, he was your typical king who started out with good intentions but quickly lost sight of good and was overcome by his desire for power.

However King Fredrik was probably one of the most successful kings to rule, commanding an army of thousands that quickly conquered many of the threats facing the kingdom. Except for one, The kingdom of Ondska. The kingdom was formed from a war camp with heavily fortified fortresses and a dictator with an iron fist. Ondska was the one place King Fredrik could never seem penetrate with his forces, he lost a great number of men over time, including close friends and relatives. The failed battles and loss of men drove him to near insanity, so the king turned to magic for answers. He tasked the kingdom's wise men as advisors to find at all costs anything with magic properties that would claim him victory.

The advisors were reluctant at first but eventually gave in. From old manuscripts with unknown origins, the existence of the Kingdom of the Trolls was revealed. It was true that many people witnessed the existence of trolls and lesser beings in the land but no one has ever communed with or for that matter witnessed a glimpse of them before having their eyes plucked from their head, if that clam could even be confirmed. But what was most interesting to King Fredrik was the story of the Troll King’s crown. It was foretold that the crown had the power to control trolls and lesser beings and it was the source of the Troll King's power. Tales also told that the Troll King was killed some untold hundreds of years prior by early settlers of the land and that the crown was lost to the wild, causing the trolls to go without a king since. Which as it’s told later, the trolls are not bothered by having a king or not, as the king was usually a role impose upon them by the power of the crown.

The advisors tried to convince the king to disregard the crown as an option and that they were not even sure if the stories were real. And if they were real the lore warned that the crown was not intended for humans and that it’s continuous use would curse it’s user and their male kin and so on. (Meaning the curse is passed down through the male bloodline.) But mad for power and victory, the king set out to find the crown regardless. Long story short, the king found the crown and used it to control the giant trolls of the West Mountain. He first ordered them to defeat the Kingdom of Ondska and it was literally defeated overnight with no casualties, ending the war for Bergendelle. The kingdom was finally at peace but not without consequence, King Fredrik as predicted managed to curse himself and his male kin.

During a royal celebration, the king is visited by an old troll nearly the size of a grown man with horns who insisted on being called “The Devil”. He introduces himself as a self proclaimed protector and avenger for all troll kind. Once the troll brought up the curse placed on the king, the king tried to convince himself and the room that he was not cursed. But after the queen admitted the king had developed a cold heart following the incident, The Devil informed the king that his body would slowly turn to stone the more he used the power and that his male kin would also experience the same fate since they now also possessed the same power. This is when the king realized that he no longer needed to Troll King's crown as both himself and his male kin could now wield the power without the crown, for he was indeed cursed. Before The Devil left, he vowed that he would seek vengeance on the royal family for the crimes the king had committed against The Devil's kind but because the king possessed the power, The Devil was near powerless to harm anyone. The Devil was afraid of the king’s power but more importantly the king had ordered that no troll could hurt himself or his kin when he first encountered the giant trolls. So instead, The Devil vowed that he would let the king have his fun for now and just watch to see who manages to get themselves killed. But one day he would return to stage accidents for those cursed and he left the day of his return a close guarded secret. After time past, the king found sanity once again for fear of his life, he ordered the giant trolls back to the West Mountain and manages to live a long prosperous life in a kingdom no longer at war.

However, while the kingdom was at peace, the royal family was not as for the next several hundred years, monarchs never ruled on average for much more than a 10 years each, dying either from the curse or other strange events. That is until the rule of King Anthony, he was crowned king shortly after the death of his older brother and father. The deaths were ruled accidents during a trip. The stories about King Fredrik cursing the family might have faded into lore, but King Anthony knew better, claiming it was the vengeance of The Devil. On his coronation day, he vowed to finally end the family curse by never having any sons and that if he had a son he would disown him, he even went as far as making the suggestion that he would sacrifice his sons to The Devil in hopes of saving his own life.

Fast forward to the protagonist of my story, Princess Anika, age 17. Fifth born daughter to King Anthony, with four older sisters. The fact that the king’s wife has given him five wonderful daughters has delighted him greatly.

During the coming of age celebration for Anika’s older sister, Cornelia, there is some disagreement between Anika and her mother, this results in Anika foolishly running away into the woods on horseback, getting ambushed by Imps, and having to be rescued by her father. Her father comes in and rescues her by using his powers to quickly defeat the Imps but not before hitting that mystical magic use wall, turning more than 70% of his body into stone, meaning he is on the edge of death.

The next day, this event drives Anika’s oldest sister, Elizabeth, to finally reveal the secret of the family curse to Anika, who was mostly kept in the dark up until this point. After finding an old journal in the archives belonging to King Fredrik documenting his attempts at breaking the curse in his old age, she decides to visit the Kingdom of the Trolls for answers. As you can guess, probably not her best decision but she’s hurting from her father being near death after saving her from her first mistake. This is when her romantic interest from the night before decides to follow her to keep her safe, even against her will.

And that’s the start of the story. The rest of the story pacing is set up much like Lord of the Rings, as this adventure part only lasts to about the halfway point when the curse is broken, after that it’s mostly a lot of resolves and heavy social commentary over the experience.

Yes, I said Social Commentary. Meaning this book will have a lot to do with social expectations, parenting, and even gender for that matter. Anika is not your average princess nor is she your “I don’t need a man!” princess. She encounters many curve balls along the way and questions about her own identity as a person. That’s why this book will be speaking to it’s reader that many social stigmas are unhealthy. I don’t want to spoil the whole plot just yet, at least not until I get closer to finishing the novel.

A few questions that will need answers are as follows:

• How would it be best for me to present the opening for the book? The curse and the kingdom's history will play a moderate role in the story overall.
• As you can guess there is a lot of spoiler type stuff I don’t want to reveal just yet but I’m debating if the main spoiler should be nearly on the back cover or be revealed later, I’ve gotten both suggestions. And since the spoiler has a lot to do with the social commentary, it could help in the marketing side of things to have it come early. I want to be able to market the book as more than just another fairy tale.
• My wife pointed out that she thought 17 was getting a bit old, especially when I write that Anika’s sister, Cornelia, is having a coming of age celebration and only her second eldest sister is the only married one. I understand that historically they would have been younger but I’m trying to get it so my characters are relatable to the reader and I don’t feel that a preteen character acting like a 20 year old is very relatable in this day and age. Also it is the 1800s, so ages would be a bit older. I mean even Disney’s Frozen featured 18 and 21 year old princesses.
• Also what sort of things should the characters face on the adventure? e.g., I have one scene where they encounter a fork in the road and I’m not exactly sure how they should guess to go the correct way, ideas? What other adventure type things should I consider? Should they jump from place to place for answers or should I try keeping the destination there and back.

A few cultural and historical questions of my own:

• What sort of servants would attend to a king or prince?
• What is opposite of a hand maiden, meaning a dresser for a prince? Would they have an understanding of women’s garb?
• What sort of hairstyles would have been in for royal men during the 1800s? Did a royal hair dresser have a title? Did they work on both men and women?
• I found that the opposite of a seamstress, is a seamster. But how would a seamster compare in the types of clothing a seamstress makes. Is the sex of the person the only difference?

Sorry, for the super long post but I’m trying to get everyone up to speed. Anyways, feel free to start asking questions and giving me some early plot and setting input. THANKS!

P.S. I’m also open to anyone wanting to take the opportunity to pitch ideas for creatures or trials for my characters. I can’t promise you’ll get credit or that I’ll use them but I’m very much open to hearing people’s ideas since this is my first novel.

Sorry, guys, when I leave him at home unsupervised for several hours he writes posts too long to read. <3

I'm excited about this. He pitched this idea to me quite some time ago; I'd say we've been verbally refining the plot off and on for over a year. It's a very unique concept and I really like how he's developed the plot so far.

I'm a trouble maker and you know it.

FYI:


If your world has Victorian fashions without Victorian industrialization and a move to modern urban lifestyles, then they may very well retain 18th century marriage customs.

Prior to the 1830's, it was illegal for a man or woman to marry in England before age 21. That was the absolute minimum age!

Where did you find that quote? My knowledge of the Regency era (which extended at least into the 18-teens) admittedly comes mostly from reading Regency fiction, but even the authors who are most meticulously careful about maintaining Period accuracy (to the point of following a chapter of a Pride and Prejudice fanfic with a page of oft-misperceived historical details) show young women "coming out" in their late teens, and portray society as perceiving any young woman not married by 22 as "on the shelf." Someone younger than 21 could not enter into a marriage without parental permission in England, but marrying without the parent's or guardian's blessing was a scandal anyway, and all a teenager would have had to do to circumvent the law was elope to Scotland (usually "Gretna Green"), where the age one could legally consent to marriage was several years lower.


A personal servant for a man, if not necessarily a prince, could be a "valet" or a "manservant." In some royal courts in history, royalty has been distinguished by having its servants be gentry or nobility themselves; a term like "gentleman in waiting" or "gentleman of the chamber" would seem a reasonable converse to "lady in waiting."

I will definitely look a bit more into the age problem and it's not even so much about what age they would marry, as it is what age would people expect a young aristocrat lady to achieve certain goals.

Quick overview, Elizabeth (Anika's Eldest Sister) is the equivalent of Elsa from Frozen; Marriage just doesn't interest her so much, mostly because she's focused on being crowned Queen of Bergendelle. But I'm a bit concerned people might think 25 is a bit too old for her to be unmarried, minor concern but worth consideration.

As for Anika, She's only 17 and because of her isolation from the outside world she's a bit too desperate to have a prince of her own. And I feel it's hard to justify Anika's desire given her age, however I do make the point that her two sisters Cornelia (18) and Rosalie (20) are allowed to attend social events with eligible princes. Even Evelien (22) is already married to a king. I want Anika to have justified social reasons to be passionate about courting a man and her mother to be against it for unspecified reasons.

@kingjon thanks for the answer to my servant question. I should have guessed "valet" or "manservant" was the correct term. The reason I asked about a "seamster" or "manservant" having knowledge of women garb, is I have a scene where the royal seamster has no choice but to help Princess Anika to disrobe and redress into new change of clothes. Ignore the politics of the situation, (A male servant realistically would not be allowed to see the princess in her undergarments) they are dealt with. Basically while trying to help, he encounters her corset and seems to struggle with it's removal, so as a quick solution he decides to rip through the corset strings with a pair of shears. Now I understand there did exist corsets for men but I'm just not sure how I can make the scene work as there is an importance to the scene being heartbreaking for Anika to the point of near tears. Again, I don't want to spoil too much why but I feel the cutting of her dress or corset to remove it would achieve the desired effect I'm looking for. Anyways, thanks for the input once again. This has all been great for the growth of my manuscript.

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/5-things-victorian-women-didnt-do-much

and

http://www.angelpig.net/victorian/engagement.html

You know atpollard is old, right? Maybe it wasn't a quote?

Thank you.

The full paragraph from which you drew the bit about legal age of consent does make clear that it's talking about the age at which one could marry without parental consent:



Like I said, marrying without parental approval would cause a scandal even after the law no longer required it, so unless the story is aiming for the "standing bravely together in the face of scandal" trope, the legal age of consent isn't as relevant to the story's Period plausibility as one might think.

Also, this quote troubles the mathematician in me:



(Though unless you're privy to their sources, this isn't something you can answer. ) They say "the average age of first marriage." Which average: mean? median? And in any case, the average of any data-set with a lower bound and no upper bound is going to skew high.

But I digress.


What's the correct term is something I would want to consult a reference book for (or, given the scale of the divergence of your alternate history, make up something). I've heard good things about the site the Regency Encyclopedia, but for this specific question I'd look for something like Google's Ngram analysis tool to see which term was most commonly used in books of that period, or the OED to see whether a term existed at the time.


He used a BBCode "quote" tag, so I assume it's a quote from somewhere unless or until I see evidence to the contrary.

What is the audience you are aiming for with the book? My instinct is to keep it brief - like how it's done in the movie Penelope. It's all backstory so a lot of it could always come out when Anika learns about it or even be revealed later. I mean, how much does the reader need to know if the MC never even knows it all because it's all been forgotten?


Can't really help since we don't know the spoiler but if it's a big, twisty reveal, my recommendation would be not to spoil it.


I go back to what's the intended audience? If it's YA aimed at teen girls, then she's on the older side. But if it's aimed at a more general audience, then it probably doesn't matter. How accurate are you wanting to be historically? Plus, just because England had stricter laws doesn't mean everyone agreed with them - or Gretna Green wouldn't have had such a thriving elopement business! And since this is a fictional Canadian kingdom, they can have their own cultural norms.

FYI: Josephine married Oscar I (King of Norway) in 1823 when she was 16 and he was 24. His mother Desiree married in 1798 when she was 21 and his father, Charles XIV John of Sweden, was 35. But both his sons who became kings married in their mid-late 20s and married 21/22yrs-olds.
Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotte of Holstein-Gottorp married Charles XIII of Sweden in 1774 when she was 15 and he was 26. His elder brother Gustav III married Sophia Magdalena in 1766 when they were both 20.
Gustav IV Adolf married Frederica of Baden in 1797 at the age of 19 and she was 16.
Queen Victoria married in 1840 - she & her husband were 21.
Her father, Prince Edward, didn't marry until his 50s in 1818 - his wife was 32.
George III married in 1761 at the age of 23. His was was 17.

All that to say - I don't think it really matters!


Isn't the "rule" that everything needs to further the story? They could go the wrong way, hit a dead end or some such and have to come back? They could go several places, being fed bits of expanding information. But no matter what, each stage needs to be necessary and add something to the character development and plot or readers are going to get impatient. Also, personally, I really hate when characters have to go back someplace they've already been. There's nothing like covering the same ground more than once to make the reader start getting bored - especially if the first time was a wasted trip. I recently read an epic adventure where the group have to retrieve 3 items - the first item was a fail and they decided they'll have to come back after they collect the other two. And I was just like, "what was the point of the last 3 chapters if they just have to come back later?"

How much travel/contact is going on back and forth between this kingdom and the rest of the world? And just how old is this kingdom? Plus they're descended from vikings/dutch/etc, right? So if anything, I'd be looking at the cultural norms for those ancestors and then thinking of how things may have developed separately over the years after the branch-off?

FYI: I'd read up on the history of corsets. If this book is taking place in the early 1800s and you're wanting to be historically accurate: "By 1800, the corset had become primarily a method of supporting the breasts, as the waist was raised to just under the bust line. Corsets still slimmed the torso but this was not their primary purpose.The corset became less constricting with the advent of the high-waisted empire style (around 1796) which de-emphasized the natural waist. Some form of corset was still worn by most women of the time but these were often "short stays" (i.e. they did not extend very far below the breasts). By contrast, corsets intended to exert serious body-shaping force (as in the Victorian era) were "long" (extending down to and beyond the natural waist), laced in back, and stiffened with boning.When the waistline returned to its natural position during the 1830s, the corset reappeared and served the dual purpose of supporting the breasts and narrowing the waist. However, it had changed its shape to the hourglass silhouette that is even now considered typical both for corsets and for Victorian fashion. At the same time, the term corset was first used for this garment in English. In the 1830s, the artificially inflated shoulders and skirts made the intervening waist look narrow, even with the corset laced only moderately."

Also: "In the 1790s, stays began to fall out of fashion. This development coincided with the French Revolution and the adoption of neoclassical styles of dress. Interestingly, it was the men, Dandies, who began to wear corsets. The fashion persisted thorough the 1840s, though after 1850 men who wore corsets claimed they needed them for "back pain"."

I would like to see them encounter the native Americans. Just so we can find out what has happened to them while all this kingdom making has been going on.

Also you could use some more characters from Scandinavian mythology
Kolbolds, Dragons, Goblins, Light Elfs and Dark Elfs (Dwarfs) come to mind. And there are plenty of other more obscure one's you could use such as Draugr (undead barrow guardians) Vargr (The basis of Wargs in lotr) or Mare (basically the Norse version of a succubus.) There is lots more to drawn from if you do some digging. You may even want to draw some ideas from the local mythology of Quebec, if it exist. (Which i assume it does.)

So far it's heading in that direction, meaning more discovery and less up front narration. I recently rewrote my introduction and was able to squeeze 4 pages (8.5x11) of narration down to 2.5 pages and I should be able to squeeze it down some more with editing and some stuff being moved into chapters yet written. So we'll see.



I'd say it's a fairly huge twist but it's also going to have a lot to do with my target audience. I'd hate to never bring it up and people don't read it. It's like writing a book on depression but don't say that until the reader is half way though. I sometimes feel like the twist is obvious and I've yet to tell someone who guesses after hearing the my elevator pitch. It's sort of a destiny type twist but not like anything people would expect. If you're interested and don't mind having it spoiled, I'm more than happy to tell you (and most anyone) via PM on Facebook. Until I decide one way or the other, I'm keeping it off my main discussion post.

As for the age issue I brought up, I think I've made the decision to stick with the ages I've set. Probably the only age I'm unsure about is her sister Elizabeth. It feels like 25 is a bit old to not at least be engaged (while the second born is married) or to have none to little interest in marriage but she is being groomed as the heir presumptive. I don't know, I guess I'll just cross that bridge when the time comes. I'm fairly certain my target audience is going to be young adults (16/18 to 28/30) who struggle with issues much like I did.

Also, Lady Sparks. Thanks for all the help with the adventure suggestions. I would totally agree that revisiting locations can be a nightmare to a reader, I've never liked it. I think I've come up with a general outline for the adventure and each location is fairly simple. Home -> Troll Kingdom -> Ruins -> Break the Curse. The thing I had someone recommend to me is that I need to remember that this adventure is not what my story is about, he was the one that brought up how Lord of the Rings does it. The curse only takes half the time and after the curse is broken, we then observe the consequences of Anika's decisions.

I like the idea of maybe a brief wrong direction from the start and my wife even suggested I have a character at the Troll Kingdom reveal some details by translating some ancient texts. I wrote a scene this morning between The Devil and Anika of her finally coming to terms with the twist. But I'm sort of currently stuck on how she figures it out when The Devil knows but wants to keep it a secret to have fun (Much like the Shinigami from Death Note.) and the only other person who knows is Anika's mother. But I'm sure I can have that one figured out in due time.



Native Americans? That might be an interesting one as a brief visit, just might depend on if the book has time to do so. Like I said, the adventure is not the point. I did introduce Trolls and Imps so far and I believe Native Americans have folk lore about similar creatures. I did however mention in the introduction that natives were somewhat of a threat to the kingdoms first hundred years but we're now 700 years later, so I would have to consider when did the natives comes to the region (e.g., the Alaskan ice bridge.) and how well would they survive in a region conquered nearly 500 years earlier by Scandinavia and Europe. It might be best to bring a tribe of people into the story as only a friendly neutral group for Anika to receive supplies and advice from. Anyways, I'll explore it.



Another idea. One thing I ran into early was Trolls verses Gnomes. Trolls come from Norwegian mythology, while Gnomes come from Dutch mythology. I've sort of merged the two into one species as the dutch believed the gnomes had a king (i.e. The Kingdom of the Trolls) and the Norwegians believed the trolls were tricksters looking to have fun at humans expense. There's so many mythical creatures I could explore including creatures and spirits from the Native American tribes. Norwegians also have these women in white spirits I really liked, I'm considering them being like a saving deus ex for Anika in the hardest part of the adventure. Not sure just yet.

Thanks again. Love having the ability to talk most this out.

Still catching up. However, something to consider, given the time period. There's a lot of OSR (old school role-playing) going on; I can see a supplement based on the concepts behind the book. A few years ago I started tossing around the idea of the "Wild East"; a mix of Wild West era and Orcs.