I'm curious as to everyone's perception of angels.

The Bible tells a fairly limited amount, so to write about angels...one can either take the tack that

1) nothing more than what is said in the Bible is allowed, or

2) nothing should contradict what is said in the Bible but anything imaginable beyond that is acceptable (along with the Pauline--all things are permissible I Cor 6:12)

3) it's fantasy, make up what you want to say. Again, the apostle Paul opens the door for many things...such as using the idol on Mars Hill to the unknown god (seemingly contrary to have no idols)..he uses it as an entry to explain about God.

So, what do you think?

I just started a website to address my WIP and stories. If anyone is interested in commenting about angels in my wee forum http://lyndseyrosedavis.weebly.com/forum.html#/, I'd be glad to have your input. ...whether you agree or disagree, dialogue helps us be like the Bereans, the NT seekers of truth.

Good question. Writing about angels at all is rather difficult seeing as we don't have a great deal of information about them. The Bible was written for humanity and therefore spirits only come up when their story intersects with ours.

I think my answer would depend on the nature of the story in question. While we should definitely not write anything that contradicts biblical angelology, I think it might be okay to explore certain unknown themes defending on the context.

Personally, I only use angels in the way that the Scripture uses them. They might pop up occasionally to deliver important messages or act as supernatural warriors. However, even this is kept to a minimum. In fact, I normally just allude to angels rather than actually showing them in my story.

I personally do not have a problem with you using angels in your story so long as they are portrayed appropriately (in character I mean). There is nothing new under the sun, so I don’t think there is an issue with portraying angels, I would just prefer them to be used in another dimension or world if you were going to alter them too much.

I have found this is a very controversial issue, and I think one that people are kind of two faced about (it was the only expression I could think of). If you don’t have a problem portraying demonic beings in your stories, then I don’t think you should have a problem portraying angelic ones. You’d be surprised how many people think one is acceptable and not the other.

I don’t use the angels just because they don’t appeal to my writing style (although if written well they might appeal to my cravings as a veracious reader).

How do you want to portray these angelic beings Vili? That might help us better formulate our answer for you.

My fantasy explores the concept of angel worlds in galaxies (for want of a better cliche) far, far away.

In fact, angels follow the Aquinas realms of angels...with my MC and his buddies being tween/teen angels, progeny of well known angels and growing up in other worlds facing all the issues of normal youth who explore their worlds.

Add to it the demonic interference, and voila, they learn how to gain 'angel wings' and go to school to practice the various aspects of becoming guardian angels. These are pretty low level.

They worship TMH my acronym for The Most High, who is alluded to, prayed to and worshiped, but doesn't encounter my little angels except through their parents.

The journey is one of obstacles and challenges which face the average tween/teen plus some additional multiverse items...fantasy animals, weaponry, transportation between universes/branes etc.

Renzar'tui is the first planet we encounter; a human like planet in a system that is 13 billion years old and pre-dates earth's human population. However, training allows time travel forward and back, so my MC guardian angel wannabes will have the chance in the future to encounter earth types...as human looking angels.

It's a fantasy and yet, IMHO it doesn't contradict what Scripture says, but certainly adds a fantasy world.

I would agree with Airianna. I think it depends on what kind of story you're writing. If you're writing in a fantasy world where everything is fictitious (and, presumably, you don't have the Bible in the form we know), I think you are at liberty to portray angelic spirits any way you like. There need be no connection between your fantasy creatures and the angels of the real world. (However, if you were doing an allegory of a Bible story, I might be a bit more careful to adhere to Biblical principles regarding angels, even if their form is different.)

If you're writing in this world, I believe you should be very careful to copy the Bible's essence of angels. That's not to say that you can't explore some areas of them that are not mentioned in the Bible, but I think everything you write should not consciously contradict the Bible. If necessary, I would put an author's note in the forward or afterward explaining that this is your interpretation. It's a little precaution that goes a long way for me, as a reader, because it prepares me and proves to me that the author is conscientious.

Lyndsey, that kind of sounds like the Angel Wars dvds except more fantasy-style... ever seen them?

On the main subject:
I am trying to use angel-type and demon-type characters in one of my fantasy pieces. Part of this is simply because I want a pure-evil character without having to worry about redemption (because, um, I'm the kind of person who would redeem all my baddies eventually...which ends up looking really really cheesy most of the time.) and part is because I think that we tend to ignore the subject because it's uncomfortable.

I try to make the angels as not-human as possible while still making them relatable. Depending on their role in the story, of course.

It brings up some really good questions of what does it mean to be human (a little lower than angels), what does a spirit-only being act like, etc. which is an awful lot of fun to explore... (it's also the reason I like cyborg/robot/AI stories. human and yet not...)

Side note, I also avoid deus ex machina angels. Ditto for demons, I prefer my charries to take personal responsibility. ('the devil made me do it' is not a valid excuse for wrongdoing)

I make sure that the Biblical background is not ignored, but in things not spoken of, I'll take a bit of liberty...more liberty if it's a fantasy, less if it's contemporary/historical.

On what I've seen in current Christian media:

Incidentally, in Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, demons and angels play a large part. The Balrog, Sauron, and Morgoth are all demons: Gandalf and the other Valar/Maiar are angels. (essentially, with a little artistic license taken, obviously...)

Angels and demons are pretty popular subjects in Christian manga, as far as I've seen. Spiritual warfare is the loophole for action stories because there are predefined limits. Also, it's a carryover from the Japanese preoccupation with all things spiritual: this is the Christian worldview edition. The last reason why it's so popular is because it's just so fun to draw angel wings, haha...(just kidding)

Many mangas prefer to focus more on the guardian angel type stuff and not show demons, or else end up completely about angels and demons fighting (not very relevant). There's not a lot of balance.

So far I like Shelter of Wings (http://www.shelterofwings.com) as a balance between the girl-manga (shoujo) and boy-manga (shounen) art styles. But I honestly would want to see another volume before I make a final judgment on their theology. So far it's been okay despite some slightly comical demons (I hate chibis. Period.) but it takes more than just 200 pages to be sure.

I avoid the use of angels as a main character, because, from both a traditional and Biblical standpoint, those angels that chose to remain with God appear to be perfect and therefore, their motivations and desires are inherently different and difficult for us to understand.

On the alternate side, I have no qualms about portraying the demonic. Because of their one point of choosing (the only time they were allowed to exercise free will as far as the choice of good or evil is concerned), and their fully spiritual nature, I believe that their very substance and nature saturated on a level different than our own nature, allowing us to understand them and their motivations on a very advanced level.

I actually think that because we know so little about angels, we should feel more free to be creative with them.

However, one of my pet peeves is the humanization of angels. Especially in terms of a sinful nature and temptation.

So Neil, just to clarify, you think it is okay to portray the demonic, but not the angelic? I agree that you have to be careful with your portrayal of angelic beings, but I think you also have to do the same thing with the demonic...

I think he means that he wouldn't portray an angelic being as the main character, just because their motivations are different. And I agree. At least for the way I write stories, it would be very difficult to write with a perfect angel (as they are portrayed in the Bible) as the MC. I think they would be rather static, which tends to make for a flat and uninteresting MC. In theory your fantasy "angels" might be different, more humanly, and therefore more qualified to be an MC.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, Neil!)

I knew I missed something in my post!!!



Ditto.

Sometimes I let it slide, though -- as in that Angel Wars dvd -- and just tell myself 'this interpretation is more like elves and not-meant-to-be-real' and I survive. Wouldn't write it that way myself, tho.

Well, you're right that I wouldn't portray an angel as a main character.

I'm of the opinion that if your angels are more human then they aren't angels in a proper sense but a similar creature.

Okay, that's what I thought you meant, and I agree. I thought you were saying something else, which didn't seem very Neilish, so I wanted some clarification.

i.e. Tolkien elves? (not quite but close)

I would take the second view because I wouldn't want to go outside the Bible. Of course there are many types of angels mentioned in the Bible, some of which are not really described, so then you can use your imagination. I would agree with those who said they wouldn't portray angel as humanish.

This question is very relevant to my writing because it all presumes the spiritual war between an angel and a demon. For more on that you can see "The History of the Red World Part I - Before it Came to Be" in the Chronicles.

Obviously, my portrayal falls in the third category. I have an angel creating something. Now I can back away from that by saying it is sub-creation or that the whole story of creation and what-not is just an allegory of how I imagine spirits fighting, but I don't like backing down that alley. It kills all the authority and the glory of having a self-contained world if I have to back down to, "It's all a figment of my imagination not meant to correspond to any reality other than the fact that angels and demons fight."

I have never really questioned this. This might be because Neil of Erk's main point about motivations does not really apply to my two spirit beings (Narok and the White Cross) because their motivations are not considered. Narok wanted to kill the White Cross, the White Cross wanted to kill him. The only motivation is the cosmic conflict between God and Satan. Nothing complicated. In fact, they almost never speak.

I guess I am an advocate of the second or third. That is, you can't make up anything you want, but pretty nearly. I guess it is a question of personal conviction on that one. I wouldn't show angels outsmarting God or fooling him. I'd even be careful to do a The Screwtape Letters on angels simply because I am more comfortable with lampooning or satirizing demons than angels, the one being God's enemies and the other His servants.

The fact is that we know virtually nothing about either angels or demons by Scripture. Does anyone understand what Peter is talking about when he mentions angels chained at the bottom of the sea? How could that even work? Where was Jesus for the three days He was in the grave? How is it that the angel messenger to Daniel was delayed for three weeks by "the prince of Persia," until Michael came to help him? I don't think you can have angels or demons in a major role if you want to stick to only showing what we know in Scripture.

Well, the Bible does say that in Heaven we will be like the angels: neither marrying nor giving in marriage. Also, these angels have been around since the beginning of the world at least, so... having 'teen or tweenage angels' doesn't seem very accurate. I'd think they'd all be the same "age". I think we really must be careful, since angels are completely holy beings, and having them 'face normal issues' of life. Angels aren't like that... I'm not trying to criticize, but shouldn't you have them be something else, some made up creatures sort of like an angel, but one that can grow up, and such like, and be tempted; because angels just do what God tells them to do (Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven). I don't think they can even be tempted to do wrong, as we think of tempting. Their test came when Satan rebelled, and some angels went with him, and the rest stayed faithful, and still stay faithful. I'm not saying you shouldn't write it, but just putting some things up for suggestion and consideration.

Hm... this was an interesting read.

First off, I agree with a couple of you that I don't think angels should be portrayed as a main character. They don't have the same motivation, thoughts, or feelings as humans do. However, they aren't light airy beings that float about handing out peace. They are warriors; they fight for God's cause.

I believe Frank Peretti's depiction of angels in his "This Present Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness" books are very accurate. Even though I don't believe they should be glorified by making them a main character, you can have main characters and show a glimpse of what angels are doing behind the scenes, or angelic warfare for human souls.

A bit of an addled post, but that's my bit anyway!

I haven't dealt with angels in my stories. Except for in "Grey."

In "Grey" I portrayed the "angel" in human form. (No wings added.) Sort of like when the two angels visited Abraham and Sarah in the Old Testament. They took a human form.

I'm generally a fan of free-thinking in fantasy, but this story would give me fits for a few reasons. Firstly, like Neil I'm not a fan of humanizing angels. Secondly because rather than a story happening in another reality separate than ours there's still the sense that it's our reality, our God and his angels, just far removed from Earth. It's different than saying that there's fantasy world X in its own reality and in it angels act and live thus, thus, and thusly. See what I mean? What this asks us to imagine is that somewhere out there, angels are living on their own planets living their own lives, which are similar to ours. So how are they different than us? It's just why I personally wouldn't enjoy the story, but I'm sure that someone less angelically uptight would certainly enjoy it.
Not sure this makes sense, but I hope it helps.

In Christ,
Jordan

What is the scope you would consider in a fantasy about angels?

Do you think creating a world of angelic creatures must be limited to what we have learned from the Bible or can it expand beyond it as long as it doesn't go against what the scripture specifically says?


For example:

What are the duties of angels?

Management (powers, authorities, rulers, etc. over the verse(s), earth, nations etc.)
Messenger (announcing important events)
Choirs (delivering praise around the throne)
Justice providers, Troubleshooters or Checker-outers? (wheels with eyes in every direction so they don't miss anything)
Guardians (both individual and for places like Eden)
Warriors (for the battles in heaven and on earth)
Early church authorities spoke of nine to eleven spheres or choirs of angels. (they included more than messenger, the meaning of angel in Greek) Wikipedia delves into it rather simply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy


Angels are divided into two categories? or more?
Fallen-followers of Satan/the devil/Lucifer etc.
Not-fallen-followers of God/Elohim/Jehovah/YHWH
Can there be a place where angels are deciding which camp to follow? Where would these angels reside?
Are there angels that make the choice over time to follow Satan and 'fall from grace' at that moment?

I am throwing out a bunch of questions...my brain is wrestling with the answers.

I have had computer woes...hard drive crashes (two in last six months) and am only now regrouping.

Thanks in advance for your ideas and opinions.

Lyn

Thanks for all your inputs.

Shortly after posting, I had a hard drive crash and it was a while before I could get a replacement computer. Then the hassle of trying to extract information from the old hard drive.

I'm back and still asking questions about angels.

The more I read of scripture, even reading the Hebrew and the Greek, the more I see that we have a narrow image of what God has done with creation, including the angels.

I have been reading Aquinas, Augustine and the church fathers on angels. They have a broader approach in many ways.

I started another thread because when I did a search of this thread, I could not find it. However, when I clicked on my posts, it showed up, so I thank you all for your input.

Wonder if you would care to click on the other angel thread and give your feedback on the various aspects of angels cited there.

Thanks,

I think the first thing you need to do is establish what angels are. From what I read in the Bible, I see angels as being our protectors under God’s sovereign hand. I think there can be no doubt that angels help protect the people of God.

Daniel 6:20-23

As he came near to the den where Daniel was, he cried out in a tone of anguish. The king declared to Daniel, “O Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions’ mouths, and they have not harmed me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no harm.” 23 Then the king was exceedingly glad, and commanded that Daniel be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no kind of harm was found on him, because he had trusted in his God.

2 Kings 6:13-17

So he said, “Go and see where he is, that I may send and get him.” And it was told him, saying, “Surely he is in Dothan.” 14 Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city. 15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” 16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Angels also reveal information to us:

Acts 7:52-53

52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Luke 1:11-20

11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

They guide the Children of God:

Matthew 1:20-21

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream,
saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Acts 8:26

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert.

Angels are also given the task to divinely provide for God’s people at certain times:

Genesis 21:17-20

17 And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.”
9 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink. 20 So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

1 Kings 19:5-7

5 Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.” 6 Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again. 7 And the angel of the LORD came back the second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.”

And furthermore, the Bible says that the angles minister to believers in general:

Hebrews 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Hope that helped.

That's a wonderful list of verses, Airianna!

Lyn, will your fantasy story set in "this world" or a parallel universe? If the story is set in "this world," my belief is that, for theological correctness, our portrayal of angels needs to stay as close to the Bible as our humanly wisdom can interpret. I believe there is room for carefully adding details where the Bible gives none, though a disclaimer in the front of the book isn't a bad idea.

If, however, your story is set in another universe, you have choices. If you're doing an allegory of this world's spirituality, you can either mirror the biblical account as closely as possible, or you can take more creative liberties. It is my belief that, if you're writing in another universe, you are not bound to follow the rules of this world, and that includes the depiction of spiritual beings.

Others believe differently, so you'll need to ask yourself where you stand. Seeking a parent's or pastor's help would be good - and could make for a fun study! If you want to portray angels as closely as possible to the Bible, studying them can be not only fun but also edifying.

Thanks AV and Phili,

My WIP story takes place in both an alternate world and on earth.

The main character is training to become a guardian angel and will be sent to earth.

He grows up on another planet and must learn all the aspects of shape shifting, weapons training, fighting demons, interacting with humans, etc.

I've studied the scriptures and other texts, and I continue to do so.

However, I'm interested in finding out what others believe. What the prevailing perceptions are.

Thanks,
Lyn

God, and Heaven, and Angels all are not in Iniel, and take no part in its history; because,
"Wi (the name of God in Iniel) in his wisdom delivered the creation of Iniel to The Building Light."
But the Word of Wi is written in the Light, and therefore in all substance.

However there are fallen angels in Iniel.

Here I took every verse in the Bible that has something to do with angels or apparitions in general (except for Revelation, which might be taken in its entirety) and put them in a list. I did it for a large-scale project Papa is working on: we are hoping to make a movie about Job.

Thanks MarcherLord

That is an awesome list and I've downloaded a copy to add to my research.

I have a similar list only mine is by category e.g. cherubim, wheels, thrones, messenger etc. rather than by Scripture book and verse.

Thanks for sharing.

Lyn

I would tend to agree with Philli. I think you can make some additions that are in keeping with angels (if you are writing in this world). If you are dealing with another world, I think you have a lot more leeway. If you are writing in this world, the Bible in its entirety needs to be your authority.

Lyn, would you like me to use my modly powers to merge your two angel threads? Then everything will be together.

That makes sense.

With my loss of computer last year shortly after I joined, I missed out on the rest of the thread. When I searched for it, nothing came up, so I started fresh.

You can do what you can, but don't make yourself have to work too hard to do it. I'll most likely only follow the more recent one.

You are great to offer. I don't want to be trouble, though.

Thanks
Lyn

You can read Hebrew and Greek!

I'm not the best at reading them and I lose skill when I don't practice. I have to do a lot of refreshing, but since I have a degree in theology, they were both required in my studies.

I keep going through what I learn of God and angels from the Bible; what I learn of history from scholars; what I learn of science/physics from the scientists and what I have learned of human beings and how they respond from psychology and sociology, and then apply them to creating a world for the creation of angels and the levels of angels.

I am not trying to insist that what I say is true, but only asking the question is it possible or impossible? Can what I create in world building dovetail with what we know and understand of angels, creation and the verse(s)?

For example, could angels work in parallel dimensions and move easily between them? Is it possible? Could that fit with what we know of angels in Scripture?

I'm trying to think logically of what things could be, given our world and what we know.

Perhaps it would be better if you asked us specific questions, Lyndsey. You see, right now we aren't dealing with any hard facts. We've all said we think there are some things you can alter, and there are some areas of angles that should not be messed with. So until we have specific questions, I don't see how we can help.

What? Are you kidding? Merging threads is FUN! It's one of those nifty mod tasks that we don't get to do very often.

The two angel threads have been merged. Some of the latest posts will be a bit out of order, because merged threads sort the posts by date, but now everything's together.

Lyn, do you know someone who is a Scriptural authority that you trust? If you have a pastor, or a Bible scholar, or someone more familiar with the Greek/Hebrew versions, you could discuss all this with them. This would also be a fun thing to do with your parents.

Thanks Philadelphia for merging things.

I have colleagues I discuss these issues with, and I am a pastor and a scholar, though not my first claim to fame. LOL My parents are long dead, though I have been known to catch myself talking with them anyway. LOL

My interest is what opinions or beliefs are held by individuals here.

I read a plethora of sources--from the extremes of the ignorant who misquote the Scriptures yet speak about them as if they knew, to the scholarly works of a variety of faiths--Jewish rabbis, Protestant scholars and Catholic publications. I read from historical sources and from those who don't come to it from a religious point of view.

But here, I can find what readers and writers of fiction believe and the prevailing perceptions about these issues.

I will try to simplify my questions to one at a time, though.

Thanks.

What you have seems more like another race than angels. I have a race of winged folk in Iniel.

I would say that if you are including earth you should stick with what we know of angels: never marry, never die, never born. And of course you would have to have the thirteen billion years in an Otherworld. It would not fit in Familiarworld history.

Hmm. Currently, I'm portraying them as messengers, and maybe a bit as guardians. My antagonist is possessed, so I'm thinking that my main characters will need some extra protection. However, because angels aren't human, they think differently. I couldn't write with angels as main charcters because we can't understand how they think, because they know the Lord much more intimately then we ever could on earth. I wouldn't be able to portray them properly. I keep them as the Lord's servants, messengers and guardians, with a bit of spiritual warrior thrown in.

Lyndsey,

Great topic!

Though scholars ancient and recent have intriguing things to say about angels, they didn't know more than we can. And what we know is restricted to the things the Lord chooses to reveal. Stick to those, I'd say. Walk a narrow line. If you include angels this way, you can't go wrong and whatever story you write will be sound.

Getting into the angelic mind is impossible for us. They're other than we are. That's why people are saying they don't use them as MCs.

Perhaps you could do as suggested and write about a purely imaginary creature instead. Then, your only focus would be the joy of creating, and how to honor God and His Word.

Hope this is helpful, though not supportive of this particular project!

Lord bless you as you struggle with important writing issues!

I'm cautious with them (though I don't use them very much - at all), because I have seen many books with awful theology because of how they portray angels, sometimes in a way that is unholy and even blasphemous towards God.

I've seen this too, Cheyenne! That's why it's good that Lyndsey is asking questions. It's not easy to put ourselves out there and ask for real responses, Lyndsey.

Some ideas/direction from Lewis. He used angelic beings in his Space Trilogy, but these books weren't written from an angelic point of view. The series took place in our cosmos, on other planets as well as earth. The way he portrayed angels was as totally alien from us, and totally obedient to God. (He did, as we know, tell a story from the point of view of demons in Screwtape Letters. I think he said he was glad to be done with that book--getting into a twisted point of view wasn't pleasant. What he achieved was the right response in his readers. I don't know of any reader who was drawn into empathizing or sympathizing with the demons. Except that I did feel apprehension for the Lesser Demon, who failed to corrupt the person he was assigned to, and was going to be devoured by his Boss Demon because of this.)

Perhaps a key to everything is reader response. Getting one that glorifies the Lord and lines up with His Truth.

God bless you!