OK, first of I am going to have to clarify some things to keep away from controversy.

When I refer to evolution here, I am not referring to the belief that every living thing on earth evolved from a single celled organism into what it is know. I am referring to "Slow Change Overtime" or "True Evolution Theory," not the misconceived attempts of Atheists to make science into a "Religion to Dispute all Faiths." I am referring to the God-given ability of all living things to adapt to their environment. For instance: an entire population of moths changing color to hide on smoke stacks. Nothing more, nothing less.

Next, this assumes that Revelations either:
A: Is actually referring to the entire universe when it refers to our world. Or,
B: Is a prediction of the suffering and triumph of early Christians. Not saying either is true; this is Speculative Fiction after all.

Lets say you wanted to create a universe with aliens but wanted to avoid the slew of possible philosophical questions that would undoubtedly be asked. We can narrow down that number of questions to two; the two above. Answer them as you see fit, without too much need for elaboration.

Simply place your stories far, far into the future and have all the "Aliens" be Humans who adapted to different environments ultimately becoming so different from other humans that they would have the flavor of being Alien.

Furthermore, if evolution just leaves some sick taste in your mouth, you could avoid that all together by having it be the results of humans tampering with our own genetic structure. There could even be a question as to the moral correctness of this, and with few exceptions, I'd normally say human tampering to that level could very well be sinful, but would not exempt anyone from Gods grace. Especially since such modifications would most likely be carried out in the womb, thus the recipient of the modification would not have any say in the matter.

How does this sound?

Ooooo. Fascinating. I like it.

That's nice to hear. Back when this was on the Sci-fi forums everyone nitpicked it to death.

For that matter, how did this get here? Did I miss something?

I have to say I agree!

The theory of evolution in Christian circles is accepted these days as well, at least some form of evolution. I can't say I agree, but I don't think it would be overly controversial, and in science fiction I think it would make a really interesting concept.

(We've merged the forums at present, since Sci Fi and His-Fic are very quiet)

The funny thing is my world does in fact have aliens. However they where never human. While it also has Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Ogres, amd Skin-changers all hailing from human stock, though that has nothing to do with natural evolution or genetic tampering, more to do with how this special energy form can affect living things.

You could call my world Modern High Science Fantasy, its kind-of all over the place, my only fear is that it may be too far fetched.

I mean think Harry Potter meets Star Wars. Though the whole supers world thing may make it more stomach-able.

Personally I like the idea of Sci Fi meets Fantasy, although I have read that it can be hard to pull off.

What Fantasy isn't far fetched - in the end. It's more like an open mine field - there's really no limit to ones imagination.

I feel that it is note worthy that if aliens are simply different humans or humans of a different type and/or mutation, they are still humans and therefore carry a soul. Therefore killing this type of alien is murder, and marriage with the "alien" race is still morally acceptable.

This is not the case if aliens are a separate type of lifeform - like a giraffe or something along that line.

If you want to give your aliens pointy eyebrows and a different culture, genetic differences work fine. If you want to make them blue and give them antennae, you'll have to go genetic manipulation. Or maybe it's a fashion statement that's easy to get in the future and it belongs to a culture from a certain planet and they get very offended by cultural appropriation.

With this idea I wanted to go for, the idea that more alien genetically modified humans, would only by modified in ways that allow them to live on normally uninhabitable worlds. That way there is a rational and arguably acceptable reason for these changes. Some of these changes might even no longer be necessary but are still carried on in their genetic code, as being a civilized culture it is unlikely for natural selection to cull them out.

I find the Idea of genetic tampering for the sack of physical appearance alone to be almost nightmarish. However there is something to be said for practical changes for the sake of survival.

However in a story such as this changing one's own appearance or perhaps changing the appearance of one's offspring or even slaves (I find it unlikely that anyone who finds the idea of meddling with someone else's appearance would be able to realize just what's wrong with this idea either). Isn't all that far fetched but honestly I would not look kindly on most doing such things.

Though it does give me an Idea for an awesome "This isn't my face" Scene!

Well, there are a lot of planets and a lot of room for different cultures and viewpoints on each. Depending on what beliefs and values each culture has, there are most likely some who go that route. They don't have to be the focus of the story, certainly, but it's good to remember that they're there for the sake of world building depth.

What scene is that?

Well, the idea is that a young person--a teenage boy or girl--discovered that they were genetically modified at birth in order to fit their parents' view of a physically perfect specimen. The idea is that they were physically altered at birth and given no choice about it. Imagine waking up one day to find that someone had completely remodeled your face, without your permission. Heck, let's take it a step further and say they put you under and performed gender reassignment surgery on you in your sleep. Can you imagine how violated you might feel?

Now it's probably true that some wouldn't see it that way and could live perfectly normal lives. I mean, they have always looked this way. But there would still be those who would live their lives resenting there parents for turning them into their designer baby. It might even be seen as a mental illness by some. Or simply be the cause for a lot of mental illness in individuals whose parents opted to treat their child like a sports car they could customize.

I don't see this being as big a deal on planets where the physical changes were necessary or with people born unto those who had changes made to them. Though likely it would not be unheard of.

From a Religious standpoint I could see denominations that reject the practice altogether, and denominations that only accept the practice when it is practical or physically necessary for survival. As well as a rare few who don't see the issue.

Personally I'm of the opinion that It should only be done if it is Physically necessary or If a child might be born with a life threatening condition. The Idea of Designer babies bothers me immensely, However people making alterations themselves for aesthetic purposes realy comes down to the same Idea as modern body art for me which personally is a grey area. So any story I write would likely lean this way in regard to narrative. Though in reality this would likely be more window dressing for a more adventurous fun filled story in my hands and I think that so long as the ideas are explored in such a story, the ideas would have alot more merit.

Interesting. Is there something it means to represent in today's world, or is it just a piece of world-building? What sorts of aspects do they change in a person?

Its more a piece of world building, but In a way it does symbolize the way parents try to force children to meet their expectations. To become exactly like they want them to be. I remember how my step mother got it in her head that I was gay and kept trying to make a point of it just because I'm a little effeminate. But Ive seen much bigger much bigger examples, Non-athletic kids inexplicably on the football team even though they don't realy want to be there, or as christian young people driven away from Christ by over-controlling parents who expect perfection.

I was thinking in the aesthetic domain along the lines of Hair, and Eye Color, Height, Bone Structure, and in some extreme cases even gender, think of the amount of damage the "I wanted a boy/girl" mentality could do! Though more exotic features could be implanted if the desire was present.

In the other category it could be almost anything. I prefer to err on the side of the fantastic. Have fun with it is what I always say.

Could they change skin color too? Influence certain vitamins to make the skin bluer, or more orange, or purple like certain birthmarks? Maybe only sticking with the brownscale of ethnic skin tones, rather than exploring the rainbow of deficiencies or overdoses of vitamins and minerals, but still.

Do the children ever try to erase the changes that were made? However that might work...

I was assuming yes people would change skin colors or create new ones with this system.

The second question depends on a number of factors, one is their a way to alter ones genetics after birth? How much can be changed? DO they keep records of there per-alteration genetics? Or do we assume that someone could find traces of there original genetics? So I don't realy know, but I prefer to lean toward the no on this as I wanna say that these alterations cant be made after birth. Though some may have surgical alterations made to more closely resemble ancestors in a sort of attempt at reclaiming there face if at all possible.

So it would be strictly at birth rather than people able to change their appearances for the sake of going undercover or something?

It might in theory be possible if for example you wanted to explore the idea. That say the genetics could be overwritten and in a high concept world the body might "Heal" itself into a new state with some assistance from advanced medical technology. Though really futuristic plastic surgery would do the trick just as well and not cost the government an arm and a leg to research. HOWEVER with the purposed scientific development one could in THEORY alter their DNA in a way that makes it appear to be someone else's when being DNA tested.

Like a nanite virus that only activates under certain conditions and kills cells to insert the DNA, temporarily causing that DNA to be prominent in certain areas until the body reacts and kills it off again.

How often do the genetic rewrites at or before birth fail or cause harm?

I guess the Nanite virus works.

Well that just depends on what level the technology is at. I would think most risk would be weeded out before it became a common thing. I am of the opinion that if you want to show how something might work or how something might be wrong, having it fail in no way shows what might be seen as inherently wrong with it. And I am also of the opinion this thing isn't even necessarily wrong so long as it is used correctly. Though people doing things recklessly and needlessly putting their offspring in danger could be an interesting side point.

Like on a planet where its actually illegal, but someone just HAS to have a son, when they are having a daughter...

Meaning that you want the plot to be more about why it is right or wrong even if it succeeds, rather than being wrong because of dangers or failed attempts?

I was just curious in what sorts of ways it would fail. Could the genetic changes end up corrupting part of the DNA so that the child has genetic related illnesses, conditions, or handicaps? How do the governments, doctors, and families handle that sort of thing?

Any and all of the above. Such biological tampering can even cause mental illness. Any mutation that occurs in humans could happen. Doing something as small as changing someones hair color could have drastic effects if the DNA recoding is done wrong. "I want my boy to have blue eyes and blond hair" could quickly turn to "Why does my baby have a third arm?"

Think of it this way, every gene does more than one thing say the gene that determines hair color also affects hearing (Just as an example).

Read up on cloning and "Designer Babies" for more accurate and in-depth information.

Interesting. How often do you think things like that go wrong with the process?

Like I said it depends on the stage the technology is at. I would hope it would get pretty low before anyone decided to take it to market. That being said, just like with any medical procedures there is always the risk of a hack doctor especially in low income areas and even more so in places where the procedure is illegal. The risk involved could range from negligible to probable depending on circumstances.

However, even I the most favorable circumstances danger would be ever present. DNA alteration is essentially coding only instead of using 1's and 0's your using 4 different possible inputs. If you have ever played a game at launch or without any updates you have a good idea of how bad that can go. Often years after launch a game can still be plagued by minor bugs and glitches, stemming from errors in the code. And the human body is ten times more complex than most video games. That being said human bodies go through lots of minimal glitches and bugs on a regular basis, some you may never even notice. So like I said It all depends on who is doing the coding realy.

If your asking for literal percentages I couldn't even hazard a guess I am hardly a geneticist. Or a statistician. But depending on the nature of the story and what exactly is going on the danger could range from 0.01%-99.99% possibility of error. Though personally I would lean more toward realistic albeit almost comical numbers like 97.3145678942. But thats just me.

Do you know what kind of social importance is placed on this issue?

In real life I can only hazard a guess. But I would assume it would be pretty up there I'd say around the same level as abortion back around when people where desensitized and indoctrinated about it. (Sorry my conservative is showing). I could even see stigma attached to those "Aliens" this whole conversation stems from .

Eventually like the aforementioned subject of abortion the subject would likely die down as arguments of it being the parents RIGHT to alter there CHILD'S DNA however THEY see fit. "It is THERE SEED after-all". Few people will give any thought to how this might affect the child's life on the whole, and for some they wont mind, but for others there entire lives will be shattered. Who cares about the Kid though its only there parents rights that matter. (Sorry just a subject tat bothers me personally.)

Odd as I have such a double standard too. As Practical alterations for the sake of survival or even for the ability to live comfortably in extreme environments doesn't bother me at all. Even If the child would have no say.

And despite how many would feel to the contrary If it where possible people willingly subjugating themselves to extrema modification would not bother me either.

BTW I have been playing with the possibility of a sort-of Metamorphism procedure. That makes use of DNA alteration via Nanites programmed to alter the DNA (Ala your suggestion) and advanced "Plastic Surgery" (I call it thats though it would be more re-purposing organic matter rather than putting in silicone implants.) Also administered via Nanite. Just to add to the high concept of it (Also a bit to the realism actually) I was thinking they would have to be put into sedation for a long period of time and kept in an isolation chamber affectionately referred to as a Chrysalis. The procedure could take anywhere from a week to a year to undergo depending on the extent of the operation, and would be both vary expensive and reasonably dangerous. Furthermore recipients would have to undergo physical therapy and take medication to adapt to there new bodies. Though rather than doing it all at once a set of treatments might be more realistic for more extreme changes. The procedure would be understandably controversial. (Likely more controversial thane designer babies actually despite in my opinion being not nearly as bad.)

I just thought of an Idea thats actually kind-of romantic. Say a Guy/Lady falls in love withe someone whose genetics have been altered so much that they cant actually have offspring together so they undergo the change so they can. But maybe your idea of romantic is a bit different from mine.

Also a nasty way to assassinate someone with a penchant for body modification.

So do these modifications happen after birth, or at any time of life?

Could a genetic surgery actually restore viability to one's ability to reproduce or is it more like creating a clone that will later be birthed?

I would assume the changes occur as the child develops in the womb. Part of the reason I would say it would normally be impossible to change someone post birth. The Idea is to change the baby as early as possible. The earlier into the child's development the better.

In theory you could "correct" anything you wish in this manner. As you would be altering the body on a cellular level. Not just making aesthetic changes that where only skin deep. Actually you could just change your sex cells and forgo any other changes to produce fertile offspring with someone you normally couldent.

That actually remind me of something they did in Justice League: Unlimited with Batman Beyond. Amanda Waller had a mans genetics altered so that any child he might have would actually be Bruce Wanes genetic offspring. Sick and twisted I know but they didn't exactly write it off as the actions of a saint either.

I remember that episode. Basically Batman from a test tube. I'm sure something of that magnitude is very expensive so late in life though.

I would think unless you had the Genetic *ehem* material frozen from earlier in your life. Like how some women have their eggs frozen.

Even so, having the DNA applied to an entire adult rather than a developing infant is probably more trouble and comes with another wave of risks.

Not entirely sure where the conversation is coming from, but something about changing an adults genetic code would be practically impossible. Every single cell in their body has a complete copy of DNA they used to duplicate, so to make adjustments would mean having to rewrite every cell. It would have to be done early in development before there would be too many cells to modify.

We already made that point and we're more thinking along the lines of a high concept world now. And yeah it would be very risky.

Actually, while it would be challenging, it wouldn't be impossible. A Lentivirus could be used to propagate new genetic information into most, if not all, cells in your body. The effects of HIV are a strong testament to just how potent the changes a lentivirus makes can be.

Also, actually rewritting DNA is probably not the best way to dramatically alter human physiology. Most of the ways people differ from each other (heigh, eye/hair color, skin tone, health conditions, etc.) are cause not by having genes, but by the same genes expressing themselves differently. This is mostly caused by environmental factors. Once gene expression is properly understood, hypothetical future scientist could conceivably manipulate gene expression to result in remarkably inhuman features and qualities.

A lot of different methods could be used. A virus could act directly on DNA during an early developmental stage. Bacteria could act on DNA indirectly. There are also structures in DNA which can turn expressions on and off. These sometimes cause cancer, which shows how dramatic the effects can be.

There is also increasing evidence that heredity is as much a product of cell structure as it is of DNA. So interference with the molecular structure of a cell could also be a way of changing human physiology.

Granted, this is all just as fantastical (and risky) as the idea of rewriting DNA. But there are people trying to do these very things right now. Good science fiction is all about exploring the risks and implications of cutting edge science.

I was just using a layman's understanding to speculate you my friend are on the ball.