OK, all you caving experts. I'm going to need some help here. (I'm looking at you, Airianna and Jaynin) In my book, the two MCs are stuck in an underground city, ancient and inhabited by wild wolves that survive by cannibalism and eating the occasional traveler. So I'm planning on making my charries escape this by finding an outlet into a natural cave.

Is it plausible that this ancient city could have been excavated from an ancient cave? I mean, these ancient people find a cave and expand it into a city

Could Zacire and Numarya escape this city by finding a natural outlet into a cave that leads to the surface?

What type of cave would be best for inexperienced, at best, characters? That they could get through realistically?

I have a few more questions but I need to start school so I'll post them later.

eruheran

Okay, it is very possible that a people group could have developed a city inside a cave. Not realistic in our world, but plausible yes, especially since this is fantasy. One of the nice benefits would be the constant temperature all year long. A cave is roughly between 52 and 62 degrees all year round, depending on the type of cave. That temperature does not fluctuate.

However, this cave would have to be a dormant one. If it were active it would cause all sorts of logistical challenges. Also, you would need a cave that no longer has water flooding through it. A trickling creek running through the bottom would be okay (as a water source) but anything more would pose some serious problems, especially since lots of cave water causes hypothermia very quickly.

Yes, you MC’s could find a natural outlet to the surface, but I would recommend it being through a breakdown passage. It’s more realistic that way. This could also mean they have to dig themselves out slightly, depending on how you portray this.

Well… no cave would really be better, other than the obvious fact that you can’t do an underwater cave. All of them would be difficult to traverse over that distance (because of the different things they would encounter in a cave that long) for inexperienced cavers. However, you could make it easier on them by leaving out certain elements. You could make it that they don’t have to scale as many walls, keep the cave horizontal instead of vertical since they wouldn’t have the equipment on them to do a vertical shaft, and keep they out of peanut butter clay. Also, removing the water element could improve their situation, which a breakdown passage would eliminate.

OK, thanks for the information. I've got a ton of questions about what you said and also to satisfy my own curiosity, but I've got to work on school. So I'll post them later.

I'll be around.

What is an active cave, exactly? And what does that mean? Water flooding through it...not a problem, although a trickle might be there, depending on the plot. Would this match a cave where cannibalistic wolves would live? Basically survival of the fittest. Any specific things that should be changed about a cave to match that?



They should have to dig themselves out. But they need to get to this outlet through some sort of narrow fissure that a wolf would be unable to get through...what exactly is a breakdown passage and what does that entail? I'm kind of experiencing some writer's block with this whole chapter so I figure researching some various possibilities to help me.

Depending on your answers, I may have more questions

eruheran

Okay, an active cave is one that has all the pretty white formations everywhere basically. And active cave is still growing. It is being supplied with the proper amount of water flowing down its formations. It is a “live” cave.

Wolves don’t really live in “caves” in our world, they live in dens, or what we cavers call bum caves (they don’t go anywhere and they’re very earthen rather than rocky). Bear do live in caves, but not in Mo. Anymore, although we can sometimes still find their dens.

However, you could probably put wolves in your cave and no one would know any better. Besides, it’s fantastical, you are allowed to divert from reality . The only thing I would be sure to mention about a cave with such creatures would be that it is more flat bedded and has craggy crack type passages. If you have a cave with a lot of shelf stone then the wolves can’t travel very well and it defeats the scary aspect you want to create because the humans could just climb up the rock face onto the shelf stone.

A breakdown passage is exactly what it sounds like. The rock has broken down over time. In a breakdown passage there are huge chunks of loose rock everywhere. They can be very dangerous, depending on the placement of the rock. It often times looks like a big pile of rubble and generally scales upwards like a little hill you have to climb over. Sometimes, in large passages, this breakdown can be tremendous and it is a very large mountainish climb, just depends. Sometimes when you get to the top of a breakdown passage the passage has been choked off and so you will carefully have to move some of the rubble away to continue on. But not all Breakdown rooms lead somewhere. Some just end.

I think the narrow fissure is possible. However, you’d have to have some skinny MC’s if they can get through and not the wolves. Wolves are able to contort their bodies very easily, so they could make it through some things that human’s can. My thoughts would be to do a shelf passage maybe inside a narrow cleft.

Hope that was helpful.

This is fascinating. I'm watching this topic, should I ever send my characters in a cave.

Airianna, do you suppose I could apply a lot of these principles to a fantasy (primitive) mine? I have a book where I send a character down there, and I'm sure it's not a realistic (real-world) mine - more like digging around in a cave system. I will need to do research on that subject as a whole, but I am just curious if some of these caving principles might be applicable.

Yes, definitely. The main difference would be the stability of the mine. Mines (because they are carved out by hand) are less stable than a cave which is naturally created and stabilized. However, you see a lot of the same things in mines that you do in caves. They lack the formations that are in a cave, but structurally they are similar.

Me, too.

That's helpful - thanks, Airianna!

Instability is a good thing. I seem to have a habit of allowing shafts to collapse as a way of driving close encounters and character wake-up calls.

That would happen a lot in an old abandoned mine. I actually had the pleasure to be able to go into an old abandoned mine that was partially flooded. It was very cool!

Partially flooded... that would be fun! Usually I blame my mine's instability with poor management and planning on the part of the money-oriented owners. Anyway, this is helpful/inspirational - thank you!

Oh it was very fun! The only problem was when we got really far back and began to deal with methane gas in the water. At first we didn’t notice it (one of the advantages to carbide lighting is that you will immediately become aware of methane presence), but as we continued to travel and the ceiling and water level got closer and closer we had less air space and the smell began to register. By that point we also noticed small bubbles popping on the surface of the water, alerting us to the high concentration. Methane Gas is produced by rotting wood (old ore carts which could be found on the tracks still, and sometimes under the water depending on where we were in the mine and how much water was present in the passage) and organic material decomposing under the water. As we traveled through some areas we began to stir these gases up, bringing them to the surface. At that point we had to be very cautious as we traveled back to a safe area. These gases cause you to become lightheaded and can make you very weak if you are not careful. Dizziness is also something you have to worry about, and when you are traveling in water you don’t want to have a dizzy spell and possibly black out. We knew what we were dealing with, so we didn’t have a problem and played it safe, but had we continued on under our present conditions we could have had issues. Just another tidbit for you concerning your mine.

Wow. That's a neat experience... though I think I would rather explore forests.

*grins* Yeah, that's the typical reasons I get. "Sounds cool, glad you enjoy it and I get to hear about it, but don't ask me to come". I really do love this stuff though. Although forests are cool too...

Well, I myself am not going - I'm just sending my poor helpless characters down.

Thanks for all the fascinating information!

Hmm, a mine would be interesting. Actually, since they're running around in an abandoned underground city, a mine might be more plausible than a breakdown passage (is that the right way to say it? ). Plus that adds the nice methane, instability, and whatnot for my characters to go through! But how deep could a mine like the type Philadelphia was talking about go down? I mean, without any vertical drilling or anything like that?

@Airianna: I was actually thinking of a shelf-like thing after I asked that, since wolves can't climb. Maybe they can go through two...one that the wolves get through, then the shelf-thing. I may get to this scene this morning so we'll see.

eruheran

It wouldn't be very deep, not without drilling. But it could go back a good ways. You could have the cave lead into a mine...

Well, I've written the scene. Y'all need to hurry up and get me posting more on my story excerpt so that I can post this cave scene.

eruheran