And is there any way to engineer a series of events to cause your own death in a way that isn't suicide?

Now that is an interesting plot point to think on, Matt......

But then wouldn't that be similar to the situation of, you have someone who has plotted someone's death, but they leave the work to someone else? They are then to blame as much as the person who commits the murder. Would it not be more or less exactly the same?

Not necessarily. If you do something knowing that you may very likely (or most certainly) will die, but think it's something that really needs to be done...basically sacrificing yourself...that's not suicide.

So what if you purposely got yourself into a situation where the best thing to do is something that would kill you?

1. Suicide is the coward's way out, it is the act of taking your life, not for any noble goal but simply because you are unable to cope with life.

2. Martyrdom is the act of sacrificing your life to save another's life, or another similarly noble goal.

3. If they already have your family, and you kill yourself, they will just kill your family.

4. I'm sorry if that was a little harsh, but, suicide is a harsh subject that should be considered and looked at in a harsh manner. Suicide is the irredeemable sin the act of commuting the murder of oneself. From the moment the murder is enacted you pass into God's realm, and once you are there there will be no turning back, or asking for forgiveness. I believe you will stare at yourself in the Mirror of God's Eyes and know yourself for who you truly are. As someone who considered suicide myself I KNOW suicide is WRONG.

5. I don't know everything but I believe all these things to be true.

1. Is it cowardly? It does take something to be able to kill yourself. You have to overcome your natural bent towards living.

Okay, so... I've been following this thread for a while, but always been far too terrified to come and state my opinions, especially since I don't really have any evidence or information to strengthen my opinions. But I decided to creep out of my little corner here and speak my mind, as frightening a task as it seems.

First off, I must say that I agree with Elanor's words, earlier on:



We are faithless, but God is faithful. I don't really have all that much more to add, except that I totally agree with Elanor's words.



I've considered suicide myself, various times. I don't think suicide is totally the coward's way out, not entirely. Do you know how much courage, however twisted that courage might be, it takes to actively lift a weapon against yourself? To pull the trigger, open the bottle, whatever it is you're using to either end your life or even just hurt yourself?

It takes a whole lot of bravery. It might be a twisted bravery, but it is still a reckless courage. Like Kelcin says - you have to overcome your natural bent on living.

One last thing I'll comment on before leaving:



This is quite accurate. God's grace is unfathomable; who are we to say it doesn't cover suicide? As Eli says, what if someone does regret their decision after it's already too late? They feel the remorse just before it ends. So what happens then?

My personal belief is, yes, suicide is wrong. I'm not going so far as to say you're going to be sent to Hell if you take that path. I don't think you will. I believe that God's grace is enough to cover suicide, and I believe that He is faithful even when we are faithless.

I don't believe He'll abandon you. Does He abandon you if you self-harm but don't die? It's the same; you've lost the will and strength to go on with life, and you take that hopelessness out on yourself. At least, in my personal experience. Does God abandon you then? If not, then why would He abandon you if you take that hopelessness one level up and just end your life?

I believe God's grace and faithfulness is greater than that.

And I'll go silent now, because I've already ranted for far too long. I apologize if I came across harshly at all, but suicide is an extremely personal topic for me on several different levels, and once I started the post, I felt the need to continue talking until all my points were made. I apologize if I have offended, upset, or angered anyone. *quietly returns to the dark corner from where she was watching before*

It takes someone who has lost the courage to live. It honestly takes less courage to take your own life than it does to get out of bed in the morning. And I happen to know first hand.

Fear of death is just another reason to kill yourself. If your dead you no longer need fear death. this is the state in which someone ready to take their own life is in.

*smiles slightly* Thank you, E.

Perhaps someone who kills themselves is a coward, but somehow I can't think of it that way, not when I know how much courage and bravery it takes for some people not to do it. If they are so brave to resist, can you really go all the way the other direction and say they are a coward if they eventually give in?

...
In the end, are they wrong or right?
For you've gotten through a thousand sleepless nights,
You've stood when the world's done everything in its power to push you down,
You give a broken smile when you have a thousand reasons to frown
You carry on, when life threatens to stop
You have every right to burst into tears, but you don't let your emotions drop.
So what are you but a dangerous fighter
Who knows how to survive when life gets tighter?
You are the very person the world fears
You've already faced all that there is to drive you to tears.
Forever, out of fear they will call the strong weak
Forever they will find in your life all the tiny leaks.
But forever you are a fighter, because the ones who are dangerous have been broken
And have a million things to be spoken. – Faceless Phantom

And I see Kelcin and Teddy's point about the kind of twisted courage it takes to kill yourself, as well.

So I wouldn't really say it's cowardly.

Wrong, though – yes. Foolish – yes. Unwise – yes.

I would take it even farther. I do not believe that you would go to hell for killing yourself even if you don't feel that remorse just before you die.

What if I am sinning in not forgiving my brother? What if I don't feel remorse for it, or repent? And then – I die? Am I going to go to hell?

It's the same thing. And I don't think that there has ever been one single point in time where I have not been unrepentant of at least one sin. In other words...if I would go to hell for killing myself, I would go to hell no matter how I died. That's the kind of corruption I am.

Anyway, the issue that I probably disagree with a lot of people about is whether or not it is right to kill yourself if, for instance, you are trying to avoid giving out life-threatening information under torture. I believe it is right to do so.

Several other people...I'm not sure who or when, though I know I read y'all talking about it at one point, on some thread or other...said that it wasn't right, because it was not trusting God to get you out of the situation. Since God can do everything, you shouldn't take the situation out of his hands by killing yourself. Something like that. (I'm sorry if I misrepresented someone's views.)

But the problem I find with that is how that logic looks like when applied to other situations. For instance, finding a job: it is taking the situation out of God's hands to do things to try to get a job. Yes, there is nothing very wrong about the things one would do to find a job – but neither is there anything absolutely wrong with taking a life (like in war), even taking your own life (like in self-sacrifice).

To make an even better example than finding a job: what about when a grenade is about to blow, and there is no time for a group of soldiers to get out of range. One of the soldiers flings himself over it. I would imagine no one would say this is wrong to do. And yet – isn't it taking the situation out of God's hands to take his life like that? Couldn't God have kept the bomb from exploding without the necessity of the soldier killing himself? Isn't it then wrong? I still don't believe it is.

As a general rule, I don't believe that 'not taking the situation out of God's hands' is ever a valid reason not to do something that you could do to solve a situation.

Anyone want to show me where I'm wrong?

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I must not have made it clear in my own post, but I don't believe you go to hell even if you don't feel the remorse. *smiles a bit* I never have believed that.



*nods* You're right. I agree with that. I myself have been unrepentant of at least one sin in my life, I'm sure of that. Many people have. You make a very good point... it makes me think.



Yes. This. I wanted to say something like that earlier, but I couldn't figure out how to word it. Taking things out of God's hands happens all the time in daily life, if you think about it - so does that mean it's a sin? I don't think so.

If you spent life not doing anything, or making any decisions, thinking, "Oh, I can't make a decision because if I do, it might take things out of God's hands"... doesn't that sound a little bit silly? You might never get anything done! God made us to have minds capable of making decisions; and while we might not always make the right decisions, there is no escaping the fact that we do have that ability, and God gave it to us. I don't think he would want us to decide, "Well, if I go out and do such-and-such to get a job, I might take the situation out of God's hands, so I'd better just sit here in my room until something direct happens".

Thank you for posting that, Rwebhu. It made me think a lot, and you made some very good points. Good job.

(another way to look at it is that...it's impossible to truly take things out of His hands. He made you. He set things up--the very fabric of space and time that you exist in, He purposefully placed every detail. You can't do something outside of that.)

Great discussion guys--I'm enjoying your posts, Renna and Juliet.

No, no, I didn't think you believed it, I just wanted to make it extra-specially clear that I didn't believe it.

Exactly. * nods *

Interestingly enough, I actually have a sect of believers in Ccwiicc who believe something rather like your example of 'If I do anything, it will take it out of God's hands, so I shouldn't do anything'. They don't, obviously, apply it to the minutiae of life ('It would be taking the situation out of God's hands to pick up the food and put it in my mouth' and such like), but they do apply it to politics, self-defense, big decisions, things like that.

Thankyou, too. It's been helpful to see your perspective.

Mmm...yes, interesting perspective. * will have to think a bit more on that *

Suicide isn't cowardly.

Jeremiah: Hmm... that is true. Thanks for making that point!

Juliet: That's an interesting-sounding sect you have in Ccwiicc. I'd like to hear about them sometime.

Wolverminion: I know. I agree.

I haven't studied the Bible on what God says about suicide, but I am of the belief it is not out of the reach of His mercy. Though I agree that suicide is not cowardly, it doesn't make it okay or right. It is a tool the devil uses to take people out of God's army. Taking your own life is not an escape, it's giving the devil victory, when the victory is already God's. It also destroys every plan and purpose God intricately laid for your life. It removes every chance you ever had of reaching people I and others never could. It is devastating to me to know that there are people out there who don't know that they are loved, valued, cherished, and so very dearly needed. You will never know how vital you are to God's plan until you reach heaven. Don't miss God's divine appointments on your life by leaving it before the finish. You may take not only your own, but the eternal lives of others with you.

Doing something, like sacrificing your life for the other soldiers or what have you, doesn't mean you're taking things out of God's hands. That may be the way God chooses to do things. He could still keep that grenade from going off after the soldier took action, if He so chose. But He usually doesn't. He already knows what's going to happen, and that does not ruin His plans. He always uses things according to His design.

As for suicide being cowardly... it hurts very much to hear people say that. I've had too many people close to me attempt suicide or think very seriously about doing so. It is natural human instinct to try to stay alive, it takes a lot to get past that. You know, even in the midst of everything, that it's the wrong thing to do, but it still seems easiest. There may be days where it seems like it won't get better, and yes, it takes more courage to stay alive. But it is not cowardice to want to die.

As someone who has seriously considered it... thank you so much for saying this. You put it beautifully and so true. It is not cowardice.

I was referring to suicide born out of depression, not self-sacrifice. The Bible says there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for their friends, and I agree in that sacrificing yourself for someone else isn't destroying God's plan for your life, because the Bible says that that could well be part of your life's plan, according to that verse. I think there is a big difference between being in a dangerous situation and sacrificing yourself so others might live, than being depressed and believing people could live without you and killing yourself. Not to degrade or belittle those who have been in the latter place, I can't even imagine what that must be like. But the difference is, a person laying down their life for another has a sense of purpose. A person despairing feels purposeless.