In my world of Skalahseh I have people (Clergy to be exact) gifted with supernatural abilities from the Bible. This includes Lay on Hands, the ability to Rebuke Evil, and even the ability to speak in tongues (Biblical definition see Acts 2:1-4). Some are also able to calm and even command animals, and even more "Powerful" ones can even call rain and lightning or cause the earth to tremble. All of these powers of course come from God and are bestowed on his followers if only the most devout (And certainly no one who is only giving lip service in the hopes of gaining said powers, something I hate about DnD clerics). The issue is that we are all supposed to come to God through Faith it's not a matter of seeing is believing. I already have unbelievers unable to sense or see spirits (Angels and Demons) of course most believers cannot interact with such beings either less it makes its presence known. But how would you keep these powers from becoming so overt that an unbeliever seeing them would have no choice but to believe.

Oooh.... maybe something like the Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh or make using the powers exhausting enough they can't be used often. Or maybe have that very question be an ongoing struggle for answers. I don't know how far your world has progressed if that's possible or not.

That is a very interesting dilemma. I've thought about it before.

I think that part of the way that people are not 'forced' to believe because of overwhelming supernatural evidence is through God's specific intervention – perhaps he makes them 'blind', so that 'seeing they see not, and hearing they do not understand'. He did something similar, I believe, when Jesus was on earth and did so many amazing miracles. Jesus did more miracles than anyone ever has done before in history. And yet so many eyewitnesses of his power still did not have faith in him or believe in his words.

Miracles and power in and of themselves won't make anyone believe. Your unbelievers could think the power comes from the clerics themselves, or from some sacred object, or something similar. Unless you need them to not believe in anything supernatural, I don't think you'll have a problem.

Rwebhu has a good point, too, in that Jesus performed so many miracles, and while they likely did help a number of people come to belief, they didn't force anyone, and there were many who still rejected Jesus anyway.

I also want to add that I don't think seeing makes faith not real or invalid. It almost feels like you're saying that if we have proof, it's not faith, and that makes me uncomfortable.

I agree. Jesus mentioned people who would not be convinced of the truth even if someone rose from the dead (Luke 16:19-21). The Bible has many stories of people who saw miracles and still did not believe in God, such as Pharaoh refusing to let the Israelites go in the midst of the plagues (Exodus 8:8-15), and the same would be true in a fantasy world.

True... I'll take all of that into consideration. Thank you.

I see what you mean, Leandra, and you definitely don't want to go down the road of faith being this blind thing where it doesn't matter if it is completely senseless and unproven, you're still going to believe it. (In some ways, Faith is like that.... When I'm going through a hard time, sometimes the things that God says that I must do don't make sense to me, and the things he says he will do don't seem possible. Yet, ultimately, our faith is based on truth, not on blindness. When I feel blind, I still follow God, because I believe, through reason, that he is a great enough God to know way more about everything than I do. And the only reasonable decision is to follow him, even when what he says doesn't seem to make sense.)

However I do believe there is a valid concern about someone being forced to believe by too much proof. At the end of the world, for instance, I believe there is going to be such an unveiled and amazing display of God's glory and power that 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord'. They simply won't have a choice in the matter. They will 'confess that Jesus Christ is Lord'. (I think it is clear, through the fact that God says some will not believe in him and will go to hell, that this 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess' event is not going to happen during our sojourn on Earth, so I think it's going to happen after the judgment, and after everyone has been judged according to whether they had faith in Jesus while on earth.) Although the Clerical powers that DawnBringer described don't even come close to a full unveiling of God's power, I do believe that the question of whether or not something proves too incontrovertibly the existence of God and therefore eliminates choice is a valid concern. (Of course, I don't think it would be too much of a concern for a Calvinist, come to think of it... But, I'm not a Calvinist, so I still think it's a concern.)

The more I thought about it the more it made sense in the concept of "this is a miracle" "No its not." Believers will see the thing for what it is unbelievers will not. For example (I know alot of you might not agree with this but bear with what I have to say for the simple sake of the point) I once had a simple debate with an Atheist over the Theory of the Primordial Atom (Better known by the loathsome name of "Big Bang Theory) He stated that the Theory disproved Creation theory. My argument was simple that the Theory of the Primordial Atom only supported creation Theory. Or at the vary least the existence of a supreme being whose actions led to the creation of our universe. I stated from a purely logical standpoint the "Big Bang Theory" (Originally purposed by a catholic priest by the way) relies on the existence of a creator. Why because their was no time before the creation of the universe and the only being who can sit outside of time is God. The Atheist argued that nothing could exist outside of time or space. A statement that again disputes "Big Bang Theory" as the theory states that a single piece of matter existed outside of time and space before exploding into the universe as we know it with time and space. Furthermore this Atheist believed in alternate universes which I stated would have to exist outside of our own universe and thus outside of what we perceive as space.

Sorry that was long winded and likely controversial. Please don't brand me a heretic and excommunicate me ... we don't do that on holy-worlds right, right?

In all seriousness please don't be offended.

OK, back on topic.

SO if an Atheist in Skalahseh saw a Shephard perform Lay on Hands he wouldn't perceive anything miraculous just some charlatan putting his hands on some sick or wounded schmuck. When in reality the Shephard is taking away the persons pain and healing their wounds or illness in a subtle or sometimes far from subtle way. Or seeing a powerful Faith user calling down lightning upon an evil demonically tainted beast as a freak occurrence, No matter how often this happens to happen. After all most unbelievers I know are so wise in their own conceit they could see an Angel Fiery sword and all and brush it off as a trick of the light.

Dear me, no. All of us disagree in our beliefs about various theological topics, so we'd have to excommunicate everyone if we started excommunicating people.

Exactly. I agree.

John 12: 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying,] I have both glorified [it,] and will glorify [it] again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it,] said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

Something like that, you know?

I think God mentally blinds people who don't want to believe in him. They want a hard heart, so he gives it to them. To me, it is so amazingly clear how atheism can't make logical sense. But atheists believe it, because they want to. They just don't see the logic the way I do. I think God lets them have that privilege – the privilege of rejecting him and his miracles.