Fair enough; the point the books I mentioned were trying to make was not to get attached to (or, rather, not to listen to your attachment to) your wording. (And that clever prose gets in the way of the story---we'd usually rather have the reader engrossed by the story than hung up on a "great line.") Noting items to include and points to make is in fact a very good idea; it's the "phrases" that I made my tangent from---nine times out of ten, probably, if you think of a witty or picturesque turn of phrase so clever you want to write it down to include it later, it's one that shouldn't make it into the final draft.

I've done that before. That's what editing's for I suppose.

First of all, authors tend to be overly attached to their own work (when they're not at the other extreme, hating work that's not bad), so if you're attached to something because you're attached to it rather than because it's really good, and you can cut it without doing violence to the context, it's probably good to cut it just on general principles.

Second, like I said, I at least want my readers to be "enthralled" by my story, the world in which it is set, and the characters who live in that world, rather than being broken out of that "reverie" by amazement at a "great line." This is not that I don't want to have those "great lines," but they should grow organically from the story, and ideally they should be as much a surprise to me as they are to other readers.

Each instance has to be decided on a case-by-case basis, of course, which is why I said "nine times out of ten"---you can't just cut everything that you're attached to, or you'll end up with a novel you hate But being attached to something is not sufficient reason to keep it.

(And all this is a bit much of a tangent for this topic ... someone with the power to do so might want to split it off into a separate thread, perhaps? If not, further replies should probably go to PM, I'm afraid.)

For which I am partly to blame.

But at least it's opened up an interesting discussion.

Well, now that I'm involved, I may as well start talking. I think the purpose of cutting is to make the manuscript better. It's not so much about cutting out our favorite lines as cutting out what needs to be cut for the improvement of the book. However, and this is what kingjon meant I think, that also means a willingness to remove parts you're fond of for whatever reason. If something doesn't add to the message you want to convey, even if it's a phrase or description that you absolutely love, then it must come out. Revision is the brutal and painful process of enhancement. It's like pruning a bush: painful but necessary.

Precisely.

Yes ... but I was thinking more of "the atmosphere you're trying to evoke" than "the message you want to convey," because "great lines" are often strongly helpful in conveying a message but usually break the "spell" of the scene. You want readers to go searching for great lines, not stumble over them.

Yes. The books I was mentioning are generally aimed at beginning writers, which is why (I think) they put this so strongly: Until you know what you're doing, if you "couldn't bear to cut it," when in doubt cut.

Exactly. If you come up with something brilliant that doesn't fit the story, save it in a notebook for later until you can use it. Then, take the atomic-chainsaw and cut it from the draft.

I'm feeling confused. So you save it for later, and then cut it anyway?

"Save it for later" means "save it to use in a later story" where it would fit, then cut it from this story.

Aaaah! Now I see. Thanks!

Yeah, that was what I meant.

Hmmm...I disagree.

Saving "good" lines for other stories isn't necessarily a good idea. I've done it before, but it's led to my engineering conversations between characters, simply so I could show off my superior sense of wit, and that has led to my characters speaking in ways that are highly out of character.

It would be better just to let your characters be themselves, and if a character would use a quote of yours, then great, but don't come up with brilliant little proverbs and then try to work them in. Oscar Wilde had a habit of doing this with some of his characters, in almost every sentence, and although it worked for him because of what he was trying to create (a political/idealogical statement through fiction), it didn't make for a realistic or compelling character.

There's a phrase for that. It's called "Killing your darlings."

My advice would be to write it as it comes when you're rough drafting. By all means, when you're outlining, jot down bits of dialog, scenes, and random sentences! It won't hurt you to write down ideas when they come to you. I do a fair amount of that; if I'm outlining a book and think of a way a particular scene would go, I absolutely sketch it out. This is especially true of dialog. Sometimes I only need to write down a few lines to get the gist, but I capture the idea, because I'll most assuredly lose it otherwise. I almost always end up rewording it when I work it into the book, but it helps me because I have a framework for how I wanted the scene to go. Otherwise I'd be like, "Okay, they were supposed to argue here... Um... What's he gonna say?"

It won't hurt you to write down gems when you think of them, and it won't hurt you to go into a scene hoping to work a certain element in. If that element captures the heart of what you want to convey, build on it! Some people build whole books around the tiniest nugget of inspiration, which could be a short witty line.

The key is to be willing to cut. As the book continues to develop, let it grow as it will. Trust me, you'll know what needs to be cut when you get there. Just let the book manifest itself, and you'll figure out what fits and what doesn't. The finished product will have plenty of beautiful gems all its own.

I went through a lot of this with Peter's Angel. I could publish a whole 'nother book of darlings I had to cut, from little turns of phrase to entire plotlines. Did I love them? Yeah, but I love the finished book, too. New things emerged out of the revised plot that I love just as well, and I know the book is better--exponentially better--than it was before, as anyone who read multiple drafts will heartily testify. (And I don't think they miss all the little nuggets of narration they raved over in the rough draft which I subsequently cut, if they even noticed they were gone.)

I was going to say something to that effect myself.
Saving little ideas or bits of dialog for another story isn't necessarily a bad idea either. It's just a bad idea to try and force them in anywhere. When I hold onto an idea or some bit of story, it begins to mold, and things grow out of it. (disgusting illustration, but it works for my purposes )

Thanks Aubrey and Jeremiah. Excellent points.

This is definitely something I struggle with! When I write nonfiction like essays, actually, I like to outline extensively so that I know exactly what I'm going to need to write...and so then I hopefully won't write a paragraph I think is awesome, then have to cut it out. However, I don't like outlining to that extent with stories, since I can never be sure exactly how things will go. So I just have to buckle down and kill my darlings.

An acquaintance of mine who's a writer likes to say that you shouldn't be in love with your own writing style. This seems like good advice to me!


For myself, I definitely save bits of stories that I had to cut out, but not so much to put them in other stories - I do it more to make myself feel better that I haven't just thrown out my work! But it is great if you recycle old pieces of stories without shoehorning them in.


Very true, and I love your way of putting it I like to always keep a mound of random ideas hiding in a warm, dark place in my brain to see what things grow out of them. Not just ideas from my old stories, but bits from books I've read, inspirations I've got from reading articles on writing and so on, everything. You never know what might show up!

I'm not quite sure what it means. My first thought upon reading it is that if I didn't love my writing style at least sometimes, I would write a whole lot less. Can you explain what you meant, cause I don't think I get it?

Interesting fact: L M Montgomery saved the stories that she had published, and re-used pieces of them again in stories she published later. So yeah... she didn't have any problem with saving things to use later. I'm not sure I'd recommend doing exactly what she did, though.

Maybe it would be clearer if I said infatuated with your own writing style. He meant loving your style so much that you think it's just the best ever and are blind to all its faults. Obviously, you do have to love your style to some extent...but not be infatuated with it!

That makes sense – vanity makes anyone a boring speaker. * grins *