This is a passionate topic and it is hard to convince either side on what is right, especially those who are strongly convicted. All I can really do is provide my opinion. I’ll admit I’m a little biased on this topic because I have friends and family in law enforcement and emergency response, so I’ve seen the evidence of what happens when men with evil intentions go unopposed. I’m also in training to get my CCW license so you can probably guess where my stances on self defense may lie.
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So, in that situation, why not choose yourself as the one to die? Violence cannot be a last resort unless you have tried all other means (which you yourself say we should do). Until I am dead, I have not tried all means. Therefore, violence would becomes my second last resort. Why? Because I think that I am the only person that can fix this situation. Should we not follow in the example of Jesus and lay down our lives before taking another's?
If you let yourself be killed who’s going to stop the attacker from going after the ones under your protection? Unfortunately, the answer is no one. As a protector of your family, friends, and the weak, it is your responsibility to stop the aggressor. If you do nothing and die then the attacker will have free reign to kill and harm everyone you were supposed to protect. You’ve essentially done nothing to aid your friends or family except slow down the attacker and add another body bag.
George Orwell, author of 1984, once wrote on pacifism: “If you are not prepared to take a life, you must often be prepared for lives to be lost in some other way. When, in 1942, he [Gandhi] urged non-violent resistance against a Japanese invasion, he was ready to admit that it might cost several million deaths.”
Mike Duran, current blogger, author of The Telling, and my source for much of this information and links, added: “Which is why the consistent pacifist must be prepared to sacrifice far more lives than she saves.”
Gandhi, in his essay about WWII and his response to what was happening to the Jews, linked below, said that if there ever was to be a justifiable war it would be so against Germany to prevent the extermination of an entire race, but Gandhi, being an absolute pacifist, did not believe in just war and therefore could not recommend going to war with Germany.
Real pacifism, absolute pacifism, condones violence and war. There is no such thing as a justification for war. There is no such thing as a righteous war. There is no justification in harming another individual. I find this in contradiction to the teachings of Christ. We know there will be a righteous war at the end of times. We know we are called to help and protect the weak.
Gandhi’s Essay, The Jews - November 26, 1938.Quote:
But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which any inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province.
What did Gandhi suggest the Jews do?
Satyagraha. Nonviolent and non-cooperative resistance against the Nazis. Gandhi’s methods worked against the British because they were far tamer than the Nazi’s. The Nazi’s wanted to cleanse the world of racial impurity and that included exterminating the Jews. Having the Jews line up and say “We’re resisting through nonviolence” would have made their mission so much easier. I can not understand the logic of having millions sacrifice themselves through extermination because they don’t want to kill for self preservation or to protect their family. How can you justify letting evil kill so many?
Again, George Orwell in his own
essay titled “Reflections on Gandhi”, believed if the Jews followed Gandhi’s methods they would be committing collective suicide:
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According to Mr. Fischer, Gandhi's view was that the German Jews ought to commit collective suicide, which “would have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence.” After the war he justified himself: the Jews had been killed anyway, and might as well have died significantly. One has the impression that this attitude staggered even so warm an admirer as Mr. Fischer, but Gandhi was merely being honest. If you are not prepared to take life, you must often be prepared for lives to be lost in some other way. When, in 1942, he urged non-violent resistance against a Japanese invasion, he was ready to admit that it might cost several million deaths….[Gandhi] believed in “arousing the world”, which is only possible if the world gets a chance to hear what you are doing. It is difficult to see how Gandhi’s methods could be applied in a country where opponents of the regime disappear in the middle of the night and are never heard of again. Without a free press and the right of assembly, it is impossible not merely to appeal to outside opinion, but to bring a mass movement into being, or even to make your intentions known to your adversary.
Mike Duran added: “Pacifists benefit from those who have fought and died for their right to be pacifists…Pacifists did not end the Holocaust. Soldiers did.”
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Real violence isn’t like Hollywood. The reality is people don’t stop to deliver speeches before they kill the good guy, they don’t go about and be proper or give people a fair fight. There are no five minute fist fight scenes. In real life violence takes place in seconds. It lasts for seconds. People die in seconds. It’s fast, it’s savage, it’s destructive, and it’s disturbing. Evil targets the weak and defenseless because they know they can’t fight back. Many attackers don’t stop until they meet resistance and some don’t stop until they’re dead. Evil thrives when met with no resistance.
Most of the time you only have seconds to make decisions that mean either life or death. You don’t have time to go through every possible nonviolent solution, and most of the time in these situations nonviolent solutions do not exist. The more time you waste the more people get hurt. You either step up and stop them right now this instant or mess around and risk further injury or death. Yes, sometimes you can use violent methods without killing, it is used every day, but violence is sometimes unavoidable and so is death. Sometimes it happens by accident. One hit at the right angle and in the correct spot can kill a man. There are examples of police, military, and medical reports that show this.
I work in security. I am unarmed and I wear no armor for protection. I work in places where the owners put their faith in stickers posted on their property that say “No Weapons Allowed” and expect that bad men will read those magical words and turn away. I once worked at a site to provide protection for two workers. When they saw I didn’t have a gun they asked if I had a knife, baton, or even pepper spray. I said my employer does not allow me to carry any weapons or defensive tools. They looked at each other uncomfortably and then asked, “So, if someone comes in here with a gun or knife wanting to hurt us, what are you going to do?” I said blankly that I’ll charge headlong into the fray and do everything in my power to stop them while you two to run to safety. My job is to protect your lives. Plain and simple.
As a Christian I can not stand by the notion that we are not to use violence to stop someone from harming or attempting to kill a human being. If someone walks in with the intention of harming or killing the people I am hired to protect, or even my family and friends, I will do everything in my power to stop them. Yeah, I might get hurt, I might get shot, but that’s business. My goal is to neutralize those threats and prevent them from causing further harm. My job is to fight and ensure the safety of those under my protection and keep fighting until the One with higher authority than man decides it’s time for me to leave this world. If the enemy is focused on me and not the innocent, I’m saving lives. If I kill the enemy, I’m saving lives. If I go down and take the enemy with me, I’m losing my life but I’m saving lives.
I’m the eldest brother in my family. Growing up I was responsible for my younger siblings when our parents were away. My dad showed me how to handle firearms and how to shoot. He showed me where the gun and ammo were kept and gave me the authority to use it to protect our family. As the oldest it was my responsibility to protect my younger siblings and my mother at all costs. If someone broke in, I attack. If someone grabbed my little brother or sister off the street and tried to take them, I attack. If someone was hurting them, I attack. If the attacker runs or gives up I stop. If they don’t then I keep on going until they do.
If someone is in the act of intentionally harming another human being, especially a child, you yell stop only once. If they don’t stop then you make them stop. You connect your fist under their chin and slam them to the ground. If that doesn’t stop them, you break their bones. If that doesn’t stop them, you choke them out. If all that fails and they won’t stop trying to hurt or kill and you cannot subdue them, you end them. Is that harsh? Absolutely. But there are people out there who will not stop no matter what you say or do, they just don’t care about their life or the lives around them, and those are the most terrifying people to face.
Yes, there are instances where showing restraint and using nonviolent measures work. End of the Spear shows how mercy, sacrifice and forgiveness changed an entire village. Talking can work. If my enemy yells for mercy I stop. But we must acknowledge instances where words and nonviolent measures are not effective and physical action must take place. I never want to be put into the situation where I have to harm another human being. I try to be diligent in keeping myself from areas and situations that increase that risk because, most of the time, you can avoid it. Most of the time. And when those times come where it is unavoidable, when life is in danger, I am mentally prepared to do what needs to be done.
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Warning: The following videos contain graphic images and disturbing audio. Mods, please feel free to edit any of this if it crosses lines as this thread is no longer in the tricky subjects room, but I feel it is necessary to show those who may not understand what real evil and violence looks like compared to what Hollywood shows us. How fast it can be. How little time we have to react. How help is not always right around the corner. Some of these videos have already been edited for public viewing but they are still graphic in nature.
I’ve provided descriptions for those who do not want to see the violence.
Mod's note: The descriptions are also slightly graphic. Read with caution.72-Year Old Man comes to woman’s rescue. Shoots attacker.
This woman suffered over 9 stab wounds within 18 seconds before her assailant was stopped. He stabbed her an average of one time per 1.8 seconds. If that old man ran all the way around the deli and entered through the back to pull the man off by nonviolent means, lets say in 10 seconds, and that’s being very generous, that’s another 5 stab wounds to her person. However, a frail 72-year old man will not win in hand to hand combat with a 57-year old, especially one with a knife. If the older man had tried nonviolent means to intervene not only would he have died but the woman as well. 18 seconds. Interesting how it is a 72-year old man who answers the woman’s call for help.
57-year old defends herself and shoots intruder.
The man who broke into her home was a career criminal with a rap sheet so long and old that they had black and white mug shots of his younger self in his file. This is an edited phone conversation. She was on the phone with 911 for over 20 minutes before the man threw her patio chairs and table at her glass door and broke in. You can hear the glass shatter before he tries to enter and she shoots. She was reading her bible when the man began pounding on her door. In the unedited tapes you can hear her begging for the man to stop and that she doesn’t want to shoot him. I believe an autopsy revealed the man was under the influence of drugs, but I have not confirmed.
Man enters stores and begins stabbing customers and shop owner.
Ignore the commentators. Preferably watch with sound off as security footage has no audio.
The assailant wearing orange enters store and within 1 second slits the throat of a customer standing by the door. The man with the slit throat survived due to the fat around his neck preventing the knife from severing his arteries. Store owner received multiple stab wounds. The man in the green shirt tries to aid store owner but is unable to subdue attacker. Man in green receives multiple lacerations as attacker redirects focus on him. In the video the man in the green falls to the ground. In any fight, even more so with a knife, if you fall to the ground your chances of survival drop. You can clearly see the attacker is preparing to drop onto the man in the green shirt to continue his attack but is stopped when the gun owner shoots and kills the attacker.
The man in the orange is larger and stronger than the three men in the store. The two men go for the attacker’s knife but are overpowered. Without shooting the man in orange those two men would have been killed. This incident took 19 seconds from when the attacker walked in the door to when he fell dead to the ground. Three men injured, two seriously, in 19 seconds with only a knife.
Pay attention at how fast and brutal this knife attack is. Keep in mind that the attacker’s technique is sloppy and amateurish but is nonetheless effective. Knives are literally a human can opener. When officers shoot assailants armed with knives and people cry foul, that’s because they don’t know what a knife can do to a human body.
18-year old widow shoots and kills armed intruder to protect her infant son.
Attack takes place one week after her husband passed away from cancer on Christmas day. The young mother, alone, had seen one of the men before and believed he had been stalking her. The men attempted to break into her home for 20 minutes before breaking one of the doors down. She had placed barricades behind the doors to deter them but the man still broke through wielding a 12 inch hunting knife. She killed him in fear of her own life and for her infant son.
Police shoot and kill man in process of beating infant to death
Police say witnesses saw the man beating an infant and called police for help, however, the witnesses did not intervene because the man was violent and they feared for their own safety. Witnesses did not take aggressive action nor put the life and welfare of the infant above their own. Instead, they waited for someone who would take the necessary action to stop the attack as the man continued to beat the child to death. Infant dies later from injuries.
Father beats man to death who was raping his 4-year old daughter.
Sample of 911 call after the attacker is stopped.
Ignore commentator in first video. She is attempting to sensationalize the story.
Family is visiting grandparents farm when brother and sister go to feed chickens and are separated from the adults. A handy man who occasionally helps on the farm grabs the 4-year old girl and takes her into the brush where he then proceeds to rape her. The Brother runs for help and the 23-year old father goes sprinting toward his daughter’s cries. Father finds the man in the act of raping his daughter and stops the assault by punching the rapist in the head. Man dies immediately from the attack and the family performs life saving techniques in attempt to save the rapist. Father did not intend to kill rapist, only stop him. However, sometime in the process of stopping an attacker death can occur. Example on how it can only takes a few hits to kill a person.***
How does pacifism save lives in these instances? How does stepping in, not fighting, and letting yourself die help save people? How can you justify not taking one life but letting that person in turn take multiple lives? Is that Christian?
Pacifism cannot survive in a violent world of sin. It ultimately leads to self annihilation. The only reason it exists is because there are people willing to protect the pacifists and the innocent by drawing a line in the sand, standing up to evil and saying, “Cross this line and I will break you.”
Proverbs 24:11 - Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
Psalm 82:4 - Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
Luke 22:35-39 - And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and
he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said,
"Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.
