Wow... that is way better... Let me take a crack at it now with your corrections. I do want to keep it that he's just a civilian, though..

"A Minoan civilian and follower of the One True God recounts his first-hand story of the rise of the Olympian deities as he seeks to convince his people that the Olympians are not gods and should be destroyed."

How does that work? Or is it too long now?

I know you like civilian, but if you take that out and just put "Minoan follower of..." you'll streamline things a little bit. Other than that, though, I'm liking this one. Good work!

Okay, great! Thanks. I'm liking it a lot, too.

Try 3:

A cowardly teenage boy wakes up in the dying world of dreams and learns the girl he loves is trapped in the castle of the Overseer, but he must fight his cowardice to challenge the Overseer's champion to a duel for her fate.

I think I even have a working title now.

You're moving in the right direction. A couple thoughts:

- Since you have a gender pronoun for the boy later, you can lose "boy" and just say "cowardly teen."

- I'm not sure what it does for the logline to say that he wakes up in the dying world of dreams. His girl's in trouble and that's more than enough for us to understand what's up.

- You don't have an adjective for the Overseer. It'd be nice if you had one.

Try 4:
A cowardly teen wakes up in the dying dreamworld (Indicates it's not a normal guy saves the girl) and learns the girl he loves is trapped in the castle of the shadowy Overseer, but he must fight his cowardice to challenge the Overseer's champion for her freedom.


Now I just have to decide if a civil war and mythological heroes are important enough to add.

Thanks.

Yep, that's working pretty well.



I don't think you have space, nor do you really need it to be compelling in a boiled-down form.

Okay, thanks!

Okay. Hoping this will work. And if not, I will eat my hat.

A lonely dragon waking within a dark jungle with no memory must answer the call of a Peacekeeper and overcome the haze in her mind to protect her newfound friends from an evil sorceress.

*hands Seabird the salt*

What's a Peacekeeper? You might be able to get away with just taking that part out, making it "must overcome the haze..."

Other than that, though, I like it! So maybe you should just eat part of your hat.

Oh okay.

A lonely dragon waking within a dark jungle with no memory must overcome the haze in her mind to protect her newfound friends from an evil sorceress.

*nom nom*

One more tweak. (I know, this is getting tiresome!) When you have "waking" it's rather passive. If you go for "A lonely dragon awakens within...memory and must overcome..." See what I mean?

(I totally cracked up over you eating your hat. )

Ah. So passive is not something to go for. Got it!

A lonely dragon awakens within a dark jungle with no memory and must overcome the haze in her mind to protect her newfound friends from an evil sorceress.

There we go! Keep that one. (And stop eating that hat.)

But it tastes so good!

The logline book has been soft-launched just now! An official announcement blog post and such will come later, but here's the page if you want to take a look: http://phantommoose.com/finding-the-cor ... line-book/

And it's still not too late to get a review copy of the e-book. See this thread for details: viewtopic.php?f=115&t=6348

I've been reading that logline book that you sent me, and I realized that the main conflict is not with a sorceress (who dies in the first book), but with a sorcerer (who is destined to pester the characters until the very end). So, everything is the same except the gender change.

Jordan, thanks so much for doing this for so long. This is exactly what HW is all about.

OK, I know this is short (I was trying to start off without clutter), but I figured I had to start somewhere. This plot has been breaking my writer's heart for over a year.

STORY: Bonesword
GENRE: Fantasy/Dark
LOGLINE: One man, two destinies.

This story was really complicated. This logline was an attempted to get down to the bare thematic bones without all the really lame clutter I was adding. I know it's pretty vague, but my hope is that you can't tell me exactly what it needs so that I don't add a bunch of stuff it DOESN'T need.

Okay, first of all, save what you've got. That's a great tagline.

But it's not a logline.

I've been trying out a new-ish technique on people lately... I've had a lot of folks tell me that they have a really complicated story and don't know how to fit it into one sentence. So I give them three and tell them to start there.

That's your assignment. You have three sentences to tell me what this is about. Go.

Okay, here goes.

LOGLINE: Assassin, tactician, and super-soldier Hurion has been groomed to become the Bonesword, the prophesied restorer of his society. But as he ruthlessly exposes and executes the subversive followers of the Dark One, he is contacted by a preternatural voice offering him extraordinary powers and a new purpose. Now Hurion must choose between two destinies offered by supernatural arch-rivals.

Good work!

Just for the record, your final logline should name no names. Describe each character with an adjective-noun pair. Like this: Shady businessman.

So, you could take your three sentences and start by figuring out how to make your main character into an adjective-noun pair. You have a lot here to work with, so it could be a little tricky. Here's one possibility; you might come up with something better: Prophesied assassin. (Anybody else like the tension in that? I'm lovin' it!)

Then do the same for your Dark One. Avoid "evil overlord."

And, finally, you might find it easiest to get this down to one sentence with a setup clause. That is, try starting with, "When a [main character] who ruthlessly executes the followers of darkness {this is too over-the-top, for the record} hears a preternatural voice..."

Something like that, anyway!

Alright, try two.

LOGLINE: While a prophesied assassain-supersoldier hunts down the followers of a subersive cult, he is contacted by a preternatural voice offerring extraordinary powers and a new purpose, forcing him to choose between two destinies offered by supernatural arch rivals.

For logline purposes... Does he know he's prophesied, or is that something the voice tells him? Because if it's something the voice tells him, that makes this easier.

Such as:

A ruthless assassin-supersoldier is forced to choose between supernatural arch rivals when he is contacted by a preternatural voice that offers him extraordinary powers and a new purpose.

This is why I say it's complicated. He knows he's prophesied. The voice is offering an alternative destiny (one other than the one he's prophesied to fulfill).

Although, come to think of it, the way I loglined it didn't mention that he was prophesied either way, did it?

I'm not sure if that's even necessary...

Alright, so losing the prophesied part:

LOGLINE: A ruthless assassin-supersoldier is forced to choose between supernatural arch rivals when he is contacted by a preternatural voice that offers him extraordinary powers and a new purpose.

The fact that he is hunting down a subversive cult, however, is absolutely integral to the part (actually it is the plot for the larger portion of the story, while the voice is a subtle problem which gradually develops and forces him into a moral crisis near the end of the story) and I feel like I'd really like to keep, which gives us something like.

LOGLINE: As he exposes and executes followers of a subversive cult, a ruthless assassin-supersoldier is forced to choose between supernatural arch rivals when he is contacted by a preternatural voice that offers him extraordinary powers and a new purpose.

Random... the concept of "I know I'm prophesied for this, but another supernatural force is offering me an alternative and supposedly has the power to overturn my fate" is a pretty good hook. It's an "I can change my destiny" kind of premise which might be useful for drawing readers. Not sure if that needs to go in the logline, but just pointing that out.

My question is... Is this actually the case?

What I'm not understanding is whether or not the voice is a good thing.

That is actually the case, yes.

And the voice is a good thing. The prophesy is not, and the alternative destiny is. So he has to choose between what his entire culture and personal belief system tell him to do and what is actually the right thing to do.

Okay. This. Is. Awesome!

And that stuff needs to be in your logline. That's what has to get in there to bring out what's really unique about this. Because a prophecy that's not a good thing that is replaced by a strange voice offering another option... I don't think I've seen that one before.

*completely agrees*

* enters to beg a boon of the mysterious and legendary floating head of knowledge * Could you look at my logline? Er, loglines?

Title: Won't
Genre: Animal earth fantasy
Logline: A die-hard-fighter river otter is forced into trying to protect a clan of prejudiced civits, who keep dying, but still aren't sure they want him there.


Title: (off the top of my head 'cause I hadn't named it yet) Merge Into The Power
Genre: slightly sci-fi fantasy
Logline: An agnostic spy must fight to extinction against the cause he is loyal to above all else, to save the existence of his friendship with an old soldier that his superiors would prefer safely out of the way. (I don't really like this one.)

Why do they keep dying? Who's the antagonist here?



Does "fight to extinction" mean that he's trying to obliterate the cause? I could see this one working well if it was rewritten like...

To save a friend from his superiors, an agnostic spy must fight to obliterate his own cause.

oh, yes. How's this:

A die-hard-fighter river otter is forced into trying to protect a clan of prejudiced civits from rats, who keep dying, but still aren't sure they want him there.

Not enough detail still?

And vice versa, when they find out what he's doing.

* nods * I was thinkin' of saying it rather like that, but – it isn't really his cause. One of the twists of the story is that he isn't even in agreement with it, but he stays with it because – he feels as if he owes it to them, he has nothing else to live for, they give him purpose, and he's drugged. Besides sheer habit.

What I'd need to see in this logline to get me interested in this story is a compelling hook. You have a hero who's protecting others where he's not wanted, but I've heard this one before. What's different about yours?



Okay... This one is intriguing but I'm not quite sure what to do with it. I've been telling people to write three sentences in summary lately, because that tends to give me more material to look at and help pinpoint where a logline needs to go. Would you like to try that?

Mendel
Fantasy, with Sci-Fi/Historical Fiction elements.
A young student becomes the protege of Mendel, a great Wizard who attempts to protect both his students and a hostile public in an escalating conflict.

My first thought was "um...nothin'". It is a very simple story, and the main point are the characters and the setting. * thinks * Well...let's see. He gets into quite a bit of conflict because of not wanting to like the civits, and finding himself becoming friends with some of them. He also has a couple of the otters asking him to train them – well, actually only one – and doesn't want to because it is against tradition (though he does it anyway). * thinks some more * His main conflict, I think, is that he doesn't want to be in a fight without there being a chance of winning, no matter how right of a cause it is to fight for. And he doesn't want to stop despising civits because they're weak.

* nods * Sure.

* thinks *

This might be hard...there are some rather complex technology concepts involved that I was trying to keep out of the logline because they were hard to explain quickly. Alright:

A spy, the best and only active one of his kind, spends his time being other people – not one of whom has ever remembered him, or cared the slightest about him other than being afraid. One day he merges with an old soldier to save his own life and together they free the spy from the people who had captured his body, but when it comes time to leave him, the spy cannot bear to lose the friendship that grew between them and jeopardizes his position by allowing him to keep the memory of their time together. His superiors begin to work a plot towards making the soldier a mindless robot because he knows too much now, and the spy makes the decision to turn against the people he has never even thought against all his life when their plans come to a head.

Yay, another logliner! (I think you're new to this thread, right?)

Here's a logline rule: Don't name names. Every character should be referred to by an adjective-noun pair. You've got one here for Mendel already: great wizard.

What is this conflict? Can you get that into the logline?

So am I gathering correctly that the MC is a bit cocky, doesn't want to do things unless there's a tangible reward, etc.? Because that's something you'd want to play up. Instead of calling him a die-hard-fighter, you might look for something in the realm of cocky warrior, mercenary, or something along those lines.



I'm intrigued. This is good stuff. Complicated, too, so this'll take some work.

I'm getting that saving the friend is the main thrust of the story. We might have to do a little setup to get some of that backstory in there, but I think it can be done...

When an agnostic spy befriends a man whose memory he's supposed to erase, he is faced with a choice between his loyalty to his superiors' cause and his only friend.

That might still be a little clunky, but what do you think?

* jumps * Oh, no. Not cocky. Not mercenary. Nothing like that. He's a good fighter, not really proud. He's tough and practical, not really mercenary. He just doesn't see the point of killing himself over people he doesn't even like or respect. What about...a tough fighter? I could leave out the part about them all being otters, maybe. The rats wouldn't make as much sense then, though...unless I tried to describe them too.

I'm glad...I'm not very good with plots at all.

* thinks * That's good, I think...but, not to seem nitpicky, but the soldier befriended him more than he befriended the soldier, if you know what I mean. I think the last bit of the sentence is better though, than what I had before.

Well, then this is good! Now we know the logline needs work.



What I'm trying to figure out is a good way to describe his viewpoint without taking up all that space... Is there an adjective that might do the trick?



Does the core story work without it being about otters and rats? Because if that's the case, you could (and should) probably take it out.



You're not nitpicky at all! This is your story; I'm just tossing out possibilities based on how it feels in my head from what you've told me. So now you know that that's something you need to rewrite in your logline to get it across the way it is in the story.

Loglining is iterative, especially when I don't know all the story details. You just keep refining until it fits your story and simultaneously makes people interested in reading that story.

Right! * nodnod *

I was trying think of one.... Pragmatic? * looks up a bunch of synonyms, but none of them really match him * Practical, maybe?

A lot of the details wouldn't, but the core story would I believe. * nods *

So what about this:

A pragmatic fighter is forced into trying to protect a clan of prejudiced civits from a power that wants them extinct, but even though they keep dying, they still aren't sure they want him there, and as the net draws closer he is faced with the decision of leaving them to die because he can't save them.

Any better?

Alright! * thinks * So...what about this instead:

When an agnostic spy is befriended by a man whose memories he is supposed to erase, he disobeys, and is faced with a choice between his imperishable loyalty to his superiors and his only friend.

Yes. I'm getting tripped up on the latter half, though. That should be simplified a lot, perhaps like this...

A pragmatic fighter is forced to protect a clan of prejudiced civits from a power that wants them extinct, but as it becomes clear that he can't save them, he must decide if it would be better to leave them to die.

(By the way, I get a red squiggly under "civits" so y'might want to check the spelling on that. I'm not sure I know what that word means, either...)



Only one thing I would do to this one. Add the word orders to that middle part, so it reads "he disobeys orders". That's just for clarity reasons. I like this one!

Hm.... * thinks on it *

Well...I – sorta made it up. * wry * It's one of the two castes of river otters – the fighters and the civits. I hoped it was similar enough to civilian that it wouldn't cause problems, it's sort of slangy for that....

* obeys orders *

When an agnostic spy is befriended by a man whose memories he is supposed to erase, he disobeys orders, and is faced with a choice between his imperishable loyalty to his superiors and his only friend.

* bounces * Thankyou very much!

You might want to use a "real" word... "Civet" (with the e) is a real word, but it's an animal in the cat family, it seems. Folks might think you're talking about that.

* nods * I'll try and think of a different word...but I haven't thought of one yet.

Let us see what themysteriousandlegendaryfloatingheadofknowledgebutyoucancallmemalfhok can swallow.

The Time Call
Fantasy-Time travel-Horror
A smith turned into a suit of armor by his own skill and hidden ancestry, must trick time itself to save a family from the wrath of demons and their worshipers.

The Riddle of the Spear
Fantasy
Though none of the cursed faithful may survive standing against the wrath of a beautiful race from a world of splendor and deceit, they must find the answers to the ancient Riddle of the Spear to at last break the lie, and banish that fair folk from earth.

How do you like it? What do you think?
*waits eagerly beaverly *


I had that in the The Riddle of the Spear! Of course I mostly had stuff turned upside down in that story, and will probably turn more things upside down.

It shocks me how many people have seen that.



I'm intrigued by the fantasy element here, but I'm uncompelled by the stakes. There's a family, but what attachment is it to the smith? A decent adjective for our hero would help.

And you don't need that comma.



This one feels like a giant setup for a story without actually getting to the story itself. Who's the main character? Who's the antagonist? (Don't name names.)

Let me see...

A devoted craftsman turned into a suit of armor by his own skill and hidden ancestry must trick time itself to save a family that will defeat the demonic enemies of his ancestors.

Here is the one I thought of before I wrote it (the first draft is written by the way, I did it for Nanowrimo last year):

A man puts on a suit of armor, and goes back in time, where he becomes his own ancestor before he returns.


Well... I admit I deliberately left out characters, because there were so many, but I do have a main character in the sense of one that goes from the beginning to the end. And an antagonist. I could try to work them in like this:

A quiet hunter is forced to join a steadfast band cursed by a beautiful race brought from a land of splendor and deceit by a cowardly tyrant and an ancient sorcerer, and before the faithful are destroyed they must find the answers to the queer Riddle of the Spear.

What do you think?

This. This is your hook. And it's a mighty good one!

Is it the suit that makes him time travel? Because then you could do this...

When a man puts on a suit of armor, he is sent back in time and becomes his own ancestor.

That might be too simplistic, but it's interesting enough to get me to take a second look.



I'm getting lost in the flowers. What's a Riddle of the Spear?

Though adding a protagonist and antagonist does make it more interesting. If I could understand what it's actually saying, I might find it intriguing.