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 Post subject: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 24th, 2010, 12:22 am 
Grease Monkeys
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Hey everyone,
I've been thinking about this idea for a while now, basically it's this. What if, instead of starting with a cliched main character who discovers his full potential and saves the world, what if one were to have a story from the perspective of a villain? One who was trying to destroy the world.

The one question in the character fractalling got me thinking (how do your enemies view your character?) plus the idea that is circling the forum about a basically evil society...what if the entire book were centered on the villain and his perspective? Obviously events in the book would be veiled by his perspective of anger, mistrust, hate (insert handy reason here) or anything you want. Then the end could be a redemption story as the secondary MC (the good guy) would change the MC. And you could see his perspective changing throughout the book from totally evil to beginning to see some of his actions as evil, stuff like that.

I also got ideas from the Apostle Paul, how he used to be 'evil' until the Lord changed his heart. Perhaps something similar could happen to Evil-MC through Good-MC (from God).

Just thinking that the entire 'good-guy-saves-world' and all that is a little overdone. What about a story that's completely from the opposite perspective? I don't have any plans on writing this any time soon, except maybe as a small subplot of my book (though I doubt it) so if anyone wants to take it and run with it, feel free! :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 25th, 2010, 5:16 pm 
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I have thought about writing a story from the villain's point of view... kind of explaining why he was the way he was because of various things that happened to him in the past. The only thing I worried about was that it would spend too much time focusing on the evil, and readers would grow sympathetic towards the character and possibly desensitized towards some of his actions.

Any thoughts on that?


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 26th, 2010, 10:54 am 
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In Prince of Yen the villain is also a secondary main character. From his point of view, he's right. We're sympathizing with the character who's veiwpoint the story is told on. If you flipped it Herene would be right and Janin would be wrong. I had an idea once for a completely different story, but with more or less the same characters that I could flip that way. I want to do a story where the MC is so completely wrong, but he thinks he's doing what's right. He thinks he's helping people and no one realizes he's the villain until he's defeated. It would be so sad...

I did write a short story once about two brothers, lords sons. One inherited his father's lands and one was befriended by revolutionaries. They were friends throughout the whole thing, I never give any objective opinions, so no one can tell who was right and who was wrong. It's just tragic. And there's a song called war between brothers that goes:
Quote:
This one's a nobleman, this one's a squire
One man will sing in the heavenly choir
One will descend into hell's licking fire
But to tell which is which would take better than I

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In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 26th, 2010, 3:37 pm 
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eruheran wrote:
Hey everyone,
I've been thinking about this idea for a while now, basically it's this. What if, instead of starting with a cliched main character who discovers his full potential and saves the world, what if one were to have a story from the perspective of a villain? One who was trying to destroy the world.


I think your talking about C.S. Lewis's "writing in reverse". Screwtape Letters, for example.

There are several tracks you can take:

1. Full Reverse

Like Screwtape, the story focuses on the unambiguously evil main character, who remains evil throughout the story. Something important to note is that since the MC won't go through much character development, either the plot or the theme is going to have to be absolutely, completely, smashingly brilliant. For this to work, we have to both understand that the MC is evil, and hate the MC. Otherwise, readers will expect U-Turn plot, and be disappointed when it doesn't happen.

2. U-Turn

Like the recent movie, Despicable Me, the MC begins as a villain, we know he's a villain, and we like him anyway. Then, varying variables cause him to become a hero. It's rather cliche, but it can be done. We have to like the villain, but not his evilness, because otherwise, we won't find value in his U-Turn experience.

3. U-Twist

I take this track in my unpublished, and unfinished book, (insert title here).

At first, we think the MC is a good guy. Then, we discover he's actually on the wrong path. The MC constantly disappoints us, until we feel conflicting emotions of hate and love. Our MC eventually becomes a hero. Although this plot is really the most common of the three, it's the least recognizable, because it entails so many variables that change from story to story.

Any of those options would work, but the 1 and 2 would work better with a "destroy the world" idea than 3 would. It's very difficult to convince your reader that destroying the world is a good thing, you know what I mean?

There is also the track that Janin used in her short story, where she never offers an objective opinion. This is a viable option, but it's the most difficult track with a "destroy the world" plot. Besides, it's difficult to explore the villainous side if you aren't aware of it.

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Redemption is to be purchased, to have a price paid. So I was redeemed from my master sin, and from justice, which demanded my death. For He paid the price of sin by becoming sin, and met the demands of justice by dying for us.

For all men have a master. But a man cannot have two masters. For he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and sin. So I die to the old, as He died, and I am resurrected to the new, as He was resurrected.

Note: Ebed is Hebrew for bondsman, Eleutheros is Greek for unrestrained (not a slave).


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 26th, 2010, 10:21 pm 
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The Screwtape Letters wasn't the type of story I had in mind. That is a brilliant book, probably one of my top-ranked all time. But even C.S. Lewis said that writing that book was awful, just focusing on all that evil. (That's why he revised it less than other books...). Anyways, I don't think I could pull that type of thing off.

Option two seems to be sort of the lovable villain type of plot. Unfortunately, it's been done a lot and there isn't that much wiggle room for plot originality, but something could be woven in.

Well, since the story would be tilted to the villain's perspective, Option 3 would still be pretty feasible. If the guy honestly thinks that he is destroying these armies for the good of his people...then he could still take over the world. But I agree, it's hard to 'fake' taking over the world into a good thing. :D

I think I'm going to end up going with option three, if I ever write the story. I just decided I'd try NaNoWriMo this year, so maybe that's what my novel will be about. :D (Though I really think my current novel has a much stronger plot that I could write more about, it's ineligible because I've already been working on it :))

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 27th, 2010, 3:28 pm 
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eruheran wrote:
I think I'm going to end up going with option three, if I ever write the story. I just decided I'd try NaNoWriMo this year, so maybe that's what my novel will be about. :D (Though I really think my current novel has a much stronger plot that I could write more about, it's ineligible because I've already been working on it :))

eruheran


Technically, as long as you don't count the words you already have, then you can do it anyway.

What's your Nano name? I'll track you down.

I think that option 3 could work with the "for the good of the/my people" concept. But you may have to let the reader doubt a little bit.

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I am Ebed Eleutheros, redeemed from slavery in sin to the bond-service of my Master, Jesus Christ.

Redemption is to be purchased, to have a price paid. So I was redeemed from my master sin, and from justice, which demanded my death. For He paid the price of sin by becoming sin, and met the demands of justice by dying for us.

For all men have a master. But a man cannot have two masters. For he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and sin. So I die to the old, as He died, and I am resurrected to the new, as He was resurrected.

Note: Ebed is Hebrew for bondsman, Eleutheros is Greek for unrestrained (not a slave).


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 27th, 2010, 6:52 pm 
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....I would say that if you're going to write a book with a full reverse (like Screwtape Letters)...then you need to be extremely careful.

I tried doing that a few years ago. And the result was a completely depressing book, and I wanted to scrub my mind out with lye and a steel brush. I write by understanding and sympathizing with my characters, and so to write from the point of view of someone who was so lost in darkness was...not a cool experience. It was SAD!

Even though, I think that the story itself was one of my best ideas, I stopped after a few scenes in that book, just because I wasn't enjoying writing it. And if I don't enjoy what I write, I don't have the discipline to keep writing. (Maybe I SHOULD but I don't want to write things I don't like if I don't have to.)

Maybe I'll pick it back up again, after a few modifications, but seriously? I'm not sure if it's the best thing to even write that kind of thing.

Even READING it, just weighs on me.

If your MC is a totally disgusting, rotten, vile, egregious, person...through the whole STORY? Who really wants to find out more about them?


(I didn't really enjoy Screwtape Letters either, for the record.:D)

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 27th, 2010, 10:33 pm 
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You must read Myst: Book of Ti'Ana. Want to know how to destroy the world and think you're justified? The MC's best friend starts out as a hero, turns into a villain and turns back into a hero, all in the same story. It's awesome. It's similar to what I want to do in Prince of Yen, just better.

That's the kind of story I want to write one day, the guy who honestly thinks he's doing the right thing. He's so deluded, he deludes the readers. So many villains are evil for the sake of being evil, but look around you. Most corruption is actual people thinking they're doing good. It's Satan's biggest weapon.

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Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 27th, 2010, 11:34 pm 
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I'll have to find that book; sounds very interesting. From what you say that plot seems very well-done. Hmm, maybe my idea isn't so original after all. :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 28th, 2010, 9:15 am 
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No, it is. That book is the only one I've read that's done anything like it. So other than the fact that I've had similar ideas, you are quite original indeed.

And yes, the book is incredibly well done.

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Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 28th, 2010, 10:11 am 
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Now I'll have to find the book. Thanks a lot! :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 28th, 2010, 9:57 pm 
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By the way, here's the villainless story I wrote, just to see if it could be done. Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? Who knows? I could have written it either way, I kept straying towards one side or the other, but I'm pretty sure I kept it objective. :D

http://katielynndaniels.com/page/brothers

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Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: July 28th, 2010, 11:17 pm 
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You had me guessing as to who was really evil, though I did get the idea that the hung brother was more innocent and the king was actually more tyrannical than portrayed. :) Good story, though. :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 1st, 2010, 8:07 pm 
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I know this is an old thread, but it reminded me of some books in the Dragonlance and Ravenloft settings that were written focusing on or from the evil characters point of view. Knight Of The Black Rose is one in which Lord Soth from the Dragonlance setting moved into the Ravenloft setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 1st, 2010, 8:23 pm 
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We are big on reviving old posts around here 6strings. However, it may be awhile before you hear back from Eruheran. 11th grade is very time-consuming, so he's put us on the back burner for the time being. He's only checking in occasionally until school settles down some.

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Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 2nd, 2010, 5:12 am 
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Only on Saturdays do I bring my pot of Holy Worlds onto the front burner. :D 6stringedsignseeker, I need to enlarge my fantasy reading repertoire...so I will bear those in mind...but, as many of you know...it can be hard to find books when you live in places that don't have books. :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 2nd, 2010, 7:48 am 
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As culturally cool as it must be to live in Asia Eruheran, I pity anyone who lives in a place with no books!

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Airianna Valenshia

The Rainbow in the Storm- My Blog

Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

Works in progress:

The Diegosian Mark, 115,600 words (Preparing for Publication)
The Diegosian Rider, 121,400 words (Finished)
The Diegosian Warrior, 15,000 (In Progress)


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 2nd, 2010, 12:59 pm 
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My mom is completely astonished when I do NOT take a book or three on a trip. :)
All of these sound really cool! Ideas are spinning in my head now... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 11th, 2010, 4:22 pm 
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You can take this too far. As some have said, there are sins that should not be explored and depths that should not be breached, depending on your stage in life. There are sins I would not attempt to portray (even to ultimately refute) though the eyes of my MC. Some of them I might handle distantly through a secondary character; some I wouldn’t touch at all. They just aren’t things I should be dwelling on right now.

But drawing back, the fact of the matter is: We’re all sinners. We all have evil “present with us” in our sinful flesh. We sin, and believe we’re right in doing so – and so do our characters. In most stories, chances are, even the MC has a fault they are dealing with. Many of us wish to make a point with our stories. We want to refute a sin, show a better way – somehow drive a lesson home. And if we want to do that organically and naturally, avoiding preachy dogmatism, then we have to portray our character’s sin as pitiable and realistic. We have to show the audience why the character is doing what they are – and the audience has to believe us.

Recently I studied theme with a screenwriting mentor, and we explored this topic greatly. When you look at a well-crafted story with theme in mind, every character is struggling with the theme in one way or another – even the bad guy! The bad guy is, in fact, a very strong player. On the surface he may seem purely wicked, but when you break it down in terms of theme, you see that he’s actually struggling with the same problem the MC is. The power of the antagonist lies in this – the antagonist does the wrong thing, refuses to learn his lesson, and fails. And when the antagonist falls, the writer shows the audience that his way was wrong.

Here’s some of my mentor’s words. I think they’re very helpful to this topic, in the area of portraying sin realistically.

Quote:
“Take your theme and turn it into a thesis – the point you’re attempting to prove. For example, if your theme is “taking recognition,” as is the case with Disney-Pixar’s Ratatouille, your thesis might be “You should give recognition where it is due and not take the spotlight for yourself.”

Now flip that thesis around into an antithesis, a counter-argument. Why, or how, would someone logically oppose your thesis?

In the Argument school of thought, everything in a film relates to the theme. Every character, every single narrative element, explores your thesis by supporting or contradicting it. The goal of a story is to prove your thesis – by using the antithesis.

Remember - "a hero is only as heroic as the antagonist is strong." Most people - especially most Christians - write the antagonist (even if the antagonist isn't a person but just a force) as weak and simplistic and easily overcome.

As an example, whenever a Christian proposes to me an anti-abortion story they want to write, I propose that the story cannot be effective until the writer can create an emotionally and intellectually compelling argument as to why the doctor providing the abortions has a cogent, moral position that is defensible.

The reason is for this is: You're going to have your main character, for most of the film, unwilling to confront the truth of your premise. In effect, your main character is going to be saying to himself and the audience "The antithesis is the right way.” If the main character can’t prove to himself (and the Audience) that he might have a valid position, it's all just tripe and melodrama.

The problem with most faith-based filmmaking is that people think of a problem that "other people have" and have a simplistic solution to that problem and then assemble a simple narrative to illustrate that fact. What you want instead is to find the emotional core of your own struggles with accepting the thesis and weave that into your main character. So as he's making the choices that lead her deeper and deeper into trouble, the audience will either think "but he's doing the correct thing!" or "man, I understand why he's doing that, but it’s not right!"

In fact, the strongest position to take is to establish, narratively, that the worst choice your main character could make would be to accept the thesis! And then you elevate the story by inverting it at the end, so through the prism of the climax we see that he - and we - were wrong all along.

Of course, in order to do that, you'll have to establish that your character’s choices all along the way are the natural human and good choices and perspective, but that there is a Better Way. To accomplish this, you need to discover the common, human reasons why we would go against your thesis, so we understand why your main character does.”


In effect, if you want to teach a moral organically, you have to look at your own sin. The logic behind wickedness is right with you! But you have been shown the better way. And you can use the two together, the knowledge of your past sin and the light of God’s truth, to bring others down the same path.

All of that to say – you can take it too far. By no means am I encouraging you to explore dark sins your spirit is not ready to tackle. But I am saying that looking at things from the antagonist’s POV is not necessarily that unusual. It depends on how dark and how wicked you start him out as – and what your end goal is. The darker he is, the harder it probably is to portray him as pitiable. But if your goal is to start with a sinful character and have him gradually realize his wrong… well, that’s what you do with all your characters!

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 11th, 2010, 4:34 pm 
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Wow. I like the way you put that, Philli.

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 11th, 2010, 8:51 pm 
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Very interesting thoughts Philli. I haven't ever thought about developing the antagonist, up until now he's just been a demon-possessed faceless evil. How can we accurately delve into getting a deep antagonist that ultimately makes the wrong decisions without being cliche?

Take Jay's fractaling system, for example...it's really great, I used it on both my MCs. I guess I just haven't used it on my Antagonist (AC) just because I don't want some cliche back story to come out: he was the MCs uncle or something like that. Actually, my AC hasn't come in to the story 16,000 words in...he's still a faceless evil sending minions...sort of like Sauron, so far. His actual interaction and character-ness comes in the second half of the book. I've resisted making the AC 'human' because if he does than he can be pitiable. I don't want him pitiable.

But, you've got some great points to the contrary...so I will begin fractaling my AC today! Well, actually, I've got a lot of homework today. Tomorrow! Definitely an under-developed segment of stories...villains.

Sorry if that was a bit off-topic...but thanks for your thoughts. :D

eruheran

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse Story?
PostPosted: October 12th, 2010, 9:46 am 
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You're welcome, but I learned it all from my mentor and his amazing "homework" assignments!

The antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be detailed to tie into theme; you don't even have to view anything from his POV. By way of example... in City of Ember, everyone is fighting for survival. The "good guys" go about it in constructive ways, and they succeed. The mayor, however, tries to survive by stealing and cheating - and he fails. In the book, you don't study the mayor's motives in detail, but you an see the effect of his actions. He chose a wrong way and failed.

Oftentimes it's subtle. On the surface, the bad guy might look like just a crazed madman. But if you dig in, start analyzing - it's there, beneath the surface.

But I shall not derail thy thread any further. Theme is fascinating, but it's another topic!

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