I have a problem.

So far, in my book, I haven't had any religion whatsoever. The worldview of the book is Christian, but the world itself doesn't have any religion. In other words, good and evil is laid out very clearly, and the main characters model Christ-like attributes (or the opposite, when it comes to the bad guys. ), but there is no defined God.

Is that bad? Do I need to have God in my stories, like He is in the real world? Does not having Him make my story - I don't know - atheistic?

And, if I have Christianity in my story, do I need to develop the history of the world to match ours, at least a little? I write with the assumption that the world was created, and then fell, and my story lies somewhere after the fall. But do I need to say that a savior has either come already or will come sometime in the future? Or can I leave all that undefined?

Then... I feel like, if I have the True God, there should also be false gods. If there weren't, the world would be extremely unrealistic.

If I have all that, then I think it would have to become a somewhat major plot point; after all, our whole purpose in life to glorify God, and to tell others about Him... so it wouldn't be any different in my story.

But I don't want to be preachy, and I want my book to appeal to a non-Christian audience, so that I can reach unbelievers with my writing.

See my problem?

What are you guys' thoughts on this?

This is a good topic to be asking about, Abby! I have given it a lot of thought as well -- I'll gather my thoughts and be back soon to let you know my thoughts. Feel free to poke me if I forget!

That...is a good question.

Personally, I've always wanted to pull off a world that didn't have a God-like figure in it, but rather just had good and bad laid out; I think it's a very nice concept since it can attract an audience that wouldn't read the books otherwise. Therefore, if I were put in your position, I would probably leave it as is unless the story otherwise called that there be a God-like figure in which case...that would pose problems.

The fact of the matter is that even without a God-like figure your world can still withold to the "standards" of Christian Fantasy, because your characters can still portray wholesome morals...it would just be a bit more tricky, or at least, it is for me. Some people do it with such ease.

When it comes to adding a God-like figure though - if you feel that it's necessary - you can sort of just have him there, but if the story doesn't directly call for it, you don't have do much more than a few mentions. If you don't want to, you couldn't probably tiptoe around inventing your own creation story too, just...don't mention it in the story.

But when you add a God-like figure, there is the problem that some people will automatically be wary that your book could come off as preachy.

For example, a few weeks ago, I was "promoting" (and I say that in the lightest sense because I'm terrible at book promotion) my book and I happen to have struck up the conversation with our waitress (yes our family are one of families that you would see talking to their waiter/waitress at a restaurant. ) that I do not believe was a Christian. When I informed her that I had published a Christian Fantasy book, her first question was "So do you, like, have God in your world?" because she was hesitant about reading a book with a God-like character that would "preach" to her.

Anyways, I explained to her about my book and how I got the idea and other things (nice lady, good conversation; one of my oddly extrovert moment. ) and she bought my book a few weeks later and emailed me about it. She said she had liked because I managed to pull off having a God-like character that didn't preach, how I did that...I dunno.

But that was semi-off topic, so the point I was trying to say is that people are very wary of reading books with God-like figures sometimes. So it's probably best to discern which audience you're writing to then figure out which you think your audience would be more comfortable with, but either way you go, it is easy to come across as preachy, but it's also highly possible that you won't.

And...I dont know if that made sense...

Bethany Faith

The Lord Of The Rings movie had good and evil, without direct reference to God that I can remember. (I don't know if the books are different.) I do think it's possible to portray good and evil without directly mentioning God since you are writing with a Christian worldview.

BUT IMO: If you feel God prodding you to write God in your story, don't resist because of the time it will take to figure it out. If will be worth if that's what He wants.
(Another) BUT, when I was faced with the problem of having God in my story or not, I was given some helpful advice. I was told that EVERYTHING you write will bring glory to God's name, if you write for Him.

One of my friends said it this way,

"If you decide to forgo the salvation message that's ok. God won't be mad at you. Using your gifts for his glory means to give him the credit. He's given me all my book ideas, and certainly written a few passages in them through me! I never would have finished all the books I have without his help! It also means using your gifts to give to others for God's glory. If others enjoy the book, give the praise to the Lord! "

My Uncle said,
"To get a answer to a question, it is always best to go to the source. So I would advise you to ask God openly in prayer, 'How best can I make my story to glorify You?' and he will give you a answer. Just be prepared that the answer you seek may not be the one you desire."

Let us know what you decide Princess, but don't be in a hurry to make a decision.

May God give you direction with this.

~ZA

Yes, there needs to be One. Without God, some "other" Authority, you can have no morality.
EDIT: Allow me to clarify - no objective morality. Everything is up for grabs.

At least a little, yes.

As for the Savior already having come or not, that would depend. The former, Him already come, would be better, methinks, as it would be more of a New Testament versus an Old Testament atmosphere (while salvation through faith has, of course, always existed - Romans 4, wasn't it? - things were, of course, slightly different in the Old - e.g., animal sacrifices).

It depends on what you mean by "false gods." False gods are described in the Bible, but they're not actually real, in the sense of being some "god."

Yep.

Why (to both statements)?
God bless,
Joel ><>.

The answer to your question, Princess, depends on whether you want to write a Christian story or to write the story of Christianity. I personally lean far away from any overt Christianity in my books, it's unnecessary. My world has a God-like character, but there is no sacrificial death, no resurrection, incarnation, none of that typical subject matter. Like Bethany, my books have a morality that is dictated as good and bad objectively, but in my case the quasi-salvation is based on allegiance to one of two warring spiritual factions.

In short, you don't need a Christian narrative, a Christian parallel, or anything except a Christian portrayal of events. This is the classic praise of LOTR, that there is a definite right and wrong, even a definite arch-evil character, and yet no God making trite speeches, preaching, condemning, etc. The most you'll get is a reproving look and some grumpy words from Gandalf, and maybe an allusion to "The West" but nothing more.

The nice part about this approach is that it simulates the reality of human life, and the invisibility of God. If you have a God that is constantly preaching it gets lame because it isn't real. No one I know of has had God show up to them in a dream and explain life to them. He did it once and expects us to believe it. Now, I don't even have a Bible in my book. Instead the only witness of the existence and power of my God-character is the testimony of his people. I like this because it is much how our world is today, which makes any messages in my stories that much more powerful because they are not presented in an unreal manner.

Why not? I don't write my books for an unbelieving audience, although I recognize they will probably read my book, but I don't see anything wrong with this. There are different levels of witness, and being "preachy", as we like to put it in novel writing, isn't always the best way. Although I don't have an issue with most books that are this way.

That's how my stories are, Princess. They're fairytales, more or less. When I first joined HW for a while I felt maybe I wasn't writing the right kind of stories, because it seemed everyone had an allegory, and maybe I wasn't being really Christian if it didn't have a Christian message.

I got over that, obviously. I have an allegory in one (out of ten) of my novels; and I have a mountain of false religion in another. (false religion without true religion you say? I can elaborate if that's required, but I think I actually started another thread for that somewhere.)

You do not need to parallel Christianity to write a Christian story. I don't care much for that type of work myself. Nothing against it, but as you said, it can get preachy. A book written from a Christian worldview is already going to be radically different from most other stories in the genre. (Especially in SF, but that's another forum.)

So I say, go for it.

My primary advice: don't force it. If theology creeps in on its own or naturally develops as a major plot point, go with it, but don't make your book all about religion if that's not a big part of the plot.

The most refreshing technique I've seen for this recently is N.D. Wilson's trilogy - the fantasy world uses biblical names and has cathedrals, but there's no explanation as to how the fantasy world ended up being Christian. And y'know what? It doesn't detract from the story for that to be unexplained.

Really good advice here!

First, I'd say that there is a time to write for a Christian audience and encourage and disciple them, and there is a time to write for a non-Christian and evangelize. Not everyone is going to do both, and in my opinion and experience it's a poor choice to try to do both in one story.

Though I actually tend to think that overt Christianity is actually more important when you are writing to non-believers.

Also, Roundelais is right -- don't force it, either way. If you pray about it and work on it and feel that overt Christianity is right for this story, then do not try to remove it. On the other hand, if you pray and work and feel that it is not necessary for this particular story, then do not try to push it in. In my opinion, it's just as disrespectful to force God into something as to force Him out.

Our stories must always be Biblical, but they need not always speak the name of God, or quote Scripture. Have a look at the book of Esther as an example.

As for creating a God-like character -- that's tricky. It borders on idolatry, and though I think it can be done well (Aslan in Narnia, Elshua in the TiraNor books), it can also be done disrespectfully. Use caution if you go this route.

I hope this helps you. If I have more thoughts for you, I'll be back.

Mm-hm, that's why none of my books have a God-like character. Not saying that it can't be done (I love Narnia), but I, personally, do not want to venture into that territory. If that's the directions you want to go - go for it! (Just use caution.) But I have personally decided that most, if not all, of my stories, will not go that route.

However, my stories are fairytale done from a Christian POV, even though they, themselves, are not overtly Christian.

The oldest story still on my works-in-progress roster has been stuck at a writer's block for over six years partly due to this. It's the one that's closest in format to the CoN, and also the most Christian of my fantasies. At this point the Jesus-figure is pretty much an Aslan cameo, which works for my personal satisfaction but would obviously cause some problems if I ever tried to take it to print. ~_~ I'm also nervous about writing dialogue for that character, because.... how on earth could I dare to put words in the Lord's mouth?

@Roundelais: Your last sentence is an excellent point, and exactly why the Creator in all my novels never speaks directly and is understood to be our God.

eru

Thanks for taking the time to think and post about this, everyone. You have given me a lot to think and pray about.

I think I'm going to leave my current story the way it is, without a God figure. Of course, I make the assumption that there is a creator, but I'm going to take the LotR route this time around; if the creator needs to be mentioned, I won't hesitate to put that in, but, if not, I won't try to force it into the story.



Personally, I don't have a problem with some preachiness in a book, but I know a lot of people who do. Most of them are not Christians, and they are the people I want to reach the most. There's nothing wrong with writing to a Christian audience - some of those books are among my favorites - but that's not what I want for this book. I want my non-Christian friends to be able to read it without feeling like they are being beat over the head with the Bible, because that won't help at all. But, at the same time, they will be reading a book with a Christian worldview, as opposed to what they normally read.

On the other hand, I have another story (that's still in the dream stages ) that will be more overtly Christian. But it will be like real life, where we can see God in His creation and in His Word and Church, but He doesn't show up and give speeches... that way, I don't have the problem of putting words in the Lord's mouth.

Hopefully that made sense.

Here is a link to another discussion in which many good points were made that are pertinent to this discussion.
http://www.holyworlds.org/fantasy/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4164

The best Otherworld creation story I have ever read is the beginning of the Silmarillion. Every writer of Christian Fantasy would do well to read the Silmarillion.

I heartily second that, Tsahraf - the Silmarillion is an excellent read.

eru

Thanks for the link, Tsahraf; I'll try to read that thread soon.

I started the Simarillion a long time ago, got about halfway through it, and never finished. I keep meaning to pick it back up again... but I haven't had a lot of time to do so...

It's not an easy book. There were some times when I just had to tell myself, "OK, I don't know where that river is or who exactly that elf is, but I'll get through it anyways!" Tolkien is a big fan of inundating you with place names/character lineage.

eru

Not to mention the fact that everyone and everything has at least two names - often three or more! Then you get into the Lost Tales and the Unfinished Tales, and things get worse. When I was younger I could actually keep track of most of it. Now I can't remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday.

There have been a lot of wonderful posts on this thread, and I am glad you were able to sort it out, Abby! As someone who writes both kinds of stories (those with implied morality and those with overt religion), I have a few points to add which will hopefully not just repeat all of the fantastic posts before me.

First, a thought on being preachy. It is not the presence of Christianity that makes your book preachy; it is the way it is written. "Preachiness" is often the result of poor, didactic writing and is not usually a good thing even for Christian fiction. As fiction writers our goal is to create a compelling narrative that takes the characters (and readers) on a journey of discovery, where they grow spiritually just like we do in real life - by going through life-changing events and slowly coming into a fuller knowledge of the glory of God. When we change out that journey for contrived, forced preaching - where the message is spelled out, tacked on, or forced in - the story loses its power.

Putting Christianity into your story doesn't automatically make it preachy. In fact, I think one of the best ways to avoid being preachy with religion is to make Christianity an integral part of the characters' lives. Don't just pull out religion for the occasional speech by the mentor character or a contrived prayer during the moments of tension. Make your characters LIVE Christianity. Pray frequently, think about Him constantly, include Him in their decisions. The key to making religion realistic is to make your characters have the same faith that you have - a daily relationship. Because I hate to say it, but if the only time you think of God is at your darkest moments of life-and-death, then your faith is contrived.

My first book, Red Rain, is overtly Christian in that the 1st-person narrator is a Christian. Christianity is such an integral part of her life that in a sense it's taken for granted. She just is, and she's not preaching at the audience to become saved. This is just the way she lives. So it's completely natural for her to pray frequently and the like. Actually, she's better at praying than I am.

I had a reviewer say that a non-Christian could probably empathize with the MC even if they didn't share her religion, and I think that's because the religion is just an integral part of her character and not an external message that was tacked on. There will, of course, be people that avoid your book if it has any religion at all. But they are not your concern. Write the book the way it's meant to be and let God worry about your audience.

With that being said, I shall echo the advice of the others here - write religion in a way that fits the book. Do not force it either way. Seek God's will and let the book write itself. I write both kinds of books, and I don't consciously choose which route I'm going to go. I just write the book the way it flows best.

I agree about "preachiness" versus faith that is integral to the characters and story.

Good point, Philli (and Jon ). Even though I'm leaving this story the way it is already, I'll definitely try to think about all the things you said with my next project! I especially agree with what you said about contrived religion; someone who prays only in life-or-death situations isn't showing what true relationship with the Lord is like.

"Preachiness" is not something that only Christian authors fall for, I've seen it before in non-Christian books desperately trying to convey a worldview (and failing). So yes, I agree with Phili, that preachiness does not come from putting Christianity in your story. It's a matter of how, not what.

Realism is key.

*nods with Red * Yeah, I've seen preachiness in non-Christian books, too.

I second Philadelphia. Some seem to think that poor quality is more spiritual, or more convincing. They are actually painting a poor picture of whatever belief they represent.


Some people have the same trouble with the Old Testament. *smirks* One difference is that Tolkien rarely includes a name or description unless he eventually or immediately tells you something about it. All the lists of names are in charts in the back of the book (...this is the line of Aragorn from Isildur...). The Bible writes all the names in (...The book of the generations of Jesus Christ...). The Silmarillion is perhaps the only book made to be read as a story, but with the weight of the history of another world from the beginning.

A quibble from a pedant here: Let's make a distinction between creating a God-like character and portraying God (or one of the Persons of God) as a character. Because the latter is what Lewis was explicitly (at least, it's explicit in his letters, albeit not quite in the books themselves) doing with Aslan in Narnia. But you're right about the danger. We have the Scylla and Charybdis of idolatry and irreverence. If God, or something like him, is a character, we must be very careful to represent him faithfully.

I'd say that "preachiness" isn't necessarily entirely the way the story is written; the story's subject matter can affect that quality too. But the presence or absence of Christianity has little to do with it. Of the two authors I've read that I would cite as most "preachy", neither is a Christian; in fact, both leap out as annoyingly "preachy" because they have an annoying and uncomfortable tendency to turn their stories into something approaching a polemic against (a minimally disguised caricature of) Christianity as they see it.

*nods* I have read books like this before.