Greetings all,
Originally this topic was going to be exclusively about dragons but since I have no dragons in my world I twisted it to serve my means a little bit better How do you get around the fact that if you have multiple sentient races (dwarves, humans, nomahar) Jesus came to save humans, and humans only? Are they (dwarves/nomahar) close enough to humans that they are covered by the same sacrifice?

What about dragons? The book series I'm reading used a half-dragon/half-human as the Dragon's Savior, which I don't like because he is obviously imperfect. But while one can consider a dwarf or elf close enough to humans, considering a dragon is covered by Christ's sacrifice is somewhat ludicrous.

And what about talking animals? If possible, these are even less likely than dragons to be considered under Christ's sacrifice. Yet they think and talk just as humans do. Do talking animals not have souls in your world; yet can still think? In my mind sentience has always implied a soul.

In my world, I have two forms of sentience. One is a rudimentary form of intelligence that I picture as what animals would have had before the fall. The phoenix, for example, have such a rudimentary intelligence. The Shibaar and Deelqaaf also have a higher form of this rudimentary intelligence. While all of these can speak, and think (to a certain extent) I classify them under creatures. What is their soul status - do they have no soul or can they expect salvation as an opportunity just as the humans have.

The other class of people in my world is clearly sentient. This covers the humans, dwarves, nomahar, and water-people (temporary name). Obviously they all *should* have some form of salvation, being sentient, but again, Christ's sacrifice covered only the humans.

So there, in a very long-winded nutshell is my questions. How do you deal with salvation among multiple races of varying intelligences?

eruheran

I just don't deal with salvation at all. My world building consists of an alternative theology, in a sense, in which there was no sacrifice. There is no redemption by faith for any of my races, it is just about 95% works based. Essentially, everyone will be judged by whose side they pick, whether they fight with and for the White Cross, or against him. Of course, some deny his existence, and are therefore against him. So really, I guess I am not helping you very much because I don't have any sacrificial deaths going on.

Another interesting fact is that there are no omnipotent characters in my world. God is subtly shifted out of the scene, and while His existence is acknowledged, it is assumed He won't ever meddle with what is going on in my system of seven worlds.

The Bible says there will be animals in heaven. God didn't come to "save" them, but they are creatures with spirits, and they are a testament to the glory of God.

I have a similar view, Airi. I want to buy a book called "Will My Pet Go to Heaven?" by Steve Wohlberg. That should be interesting.

Very interesting question.

Non-sentient/intelligent probably won't be covered because they probably won't have souls (like my Krecks), but intelligent/sentient probably would have souls and so would be covered.

Whether or not that helps, or even makes sense, you'll have to decide.

Oh, most domestic pets and animals with a personality fall into the second category, or at least I think they do.

Great question!

I think including a sacrifice and salvation could make what you are writing powerful. I include it in my own stories.

I think the key would be to trace their history of where these various raced come from. In my own story I sort of "evolved" (sorry about the term!) the Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, and all sorts of things from men after magic went wild. That way, they are all in fact "men" and can be saved.

Just a thought,
Chaplain

Chaplain,
What you wrote about evolving seems interesting. My problem is that each of the races were created uniquely and given a special gift - and that's important to the story.

Lady E (and a few others),
My problem is that I'm trying to stick to the earth sacrifice. I'm still not comfortable with creating a God and an alternate savior (there was a thread about that somewhere) thus the God of Enderion and the God of Earth are the same. Jesus died for both.

I think what I shall do is this: Jesus came to die for all people. This includes all Beings (humans, dwarves, nomahar, and water-people). The only sentient creatures I have that can speak are the deelqaaf and shibaar. These will now be considered beings, basically giants (deelqaaf) and humans (shibaar).

Other creatures, such as the phoenix, which can think but cannot speak, will be taken to heaven. Although, I'm still going to want to read up on animals in heaven to see what that is all about.

Thanks all for your great input,
eruheran

Sorry Brendan, rephrase?

I never said they were the same. My previously stated response was to real life animals, not fantasy related ones.

Any ideas to throw in to the melting pot, Inesdar?

eruheran

This might be semi off-topic, but can you point me to a verse or something in scripture that says animals will be in heaven? And that they have spirits?

I'd have to get it from my Daddy, and he is out of town. I haven't studied the subject in depth, but Daddy brought it up one time. He found some scripture that supports this thought, which contradicted his previous thoughts on the subject.

So no, at the moment I can not. But I know it is there.

Ah, okay, that's fine.

Hello everyone ( I am the new guy )

I think Salvation through a sacrifice should be an important part of any World. Ultimately if we take away such things such as a sacrifice then we lose the big picture and theological pureness of the World.
It can be difficult to get round the different races ( e.g Dwarves, etc. ) however maybe if we thought of it as a sacrifice being made for all the races, this would be Biblical as God also saved all the nations through choosing one people.

On the thought of animals going to Heaven.... it is clear in our World that Humans ultimately can only be saved by God's grace, not animals. The animals can only be seen in the light of the man. Man is given life by God in a unique way as he is both 'made in his image' (so uses logical reasoning ) and is a 'Soul'. I think the topic is open.... will there be animals in the New creation - Yes I do think so. However do animals go to Heaven upon dying- I'm inclined to say no.
Would like to hear people's replies

What I mean about Logic is that logic ultimately is truth. We take this from the fact that the law of Non-contradiction, the law of yes and not yes, itself is unprovable yet it must be a set truth or all logic or even the ability to say something is true or not falls through. Now Logic comes from God and God created man to exist with logic. I believe this is showing that it shows logic and is also something God gave us in His image, and from that comes the idea of seeing,touching and other things...

I believe that logic, the understanding which is used to discern or quantify all things, is the same Logic of God. This reflects God's sovereignty in which we cannot even understand logic using logic yet God is always, which is seen when he says to Moses ''I Am''.

The religion in (one of) my book(s) revolves around worshiping and meditating and doing enough good works to get you into the "heaven". It kinda is like the Buddhist (it's the Buddhists right?) thing with reincarnation; except 1: You don't reincarnate as a worm. and 2: You reincarnate in heaven. Depending on how close you were to absolute perfection in that god's standard and how much you worshiped them/meditated/sacrificed for them; is your standing and reputation in the after-life.

Boo me down if I'm wrong to continue this by asking a question of my own. This is, after all, Eru's thread, but it's soooooo very close to what I need to know. . .


My world is set in present time on this earth. So take everything you know about our world and add five dragons who hatched here after their parents sent them here to save them from a great war. I would LOVE to include the Salvation story and make my MC accept Christ by the end of this book. She is very self reliant, and I'm getting her to trust the other characters, but to give her a Higher One to trust would be best. . . . But what about my dragons? They are really shape shifters, but they hatched as dragons and can change to a humanoid form when they turn 10 days old. What to do? I can't say Christ died for them, but I don't know if I can have my dragons accept Christ without his blood atonement. And they are sinful; they are not a perfect race by any means. What to do? My default is to not mention any Salvation, but what about my using my writing to glorify God? I want to publish this book (maybe even by next year) , but this is something I am having trouble with.

In my book although it is on a different world than earth, I have Jesus Chirst in my book. He is not a fictional representation, but actually Jesus Christ. But in my book, there is no such thing as earth. About half way through my book some of the MC's friends become Christians, and then by the end of the book so does the MC.

So I am thinking that, Elmirza, salvation through Christ would be a very cool thing to have in your book, and it would add more feeling to it.

But with your problem with your dragons being saved I think is probably the same problem Bryan Davis had.
I think that's why Mr. Davis had is dragons turn human for most of their lives and then in his book they had a choice whether to be human forever or dragon.

I don't know if that made sense or if that helped at all.... But that's just what I was thinking when I read your comment! Hope that helped.





In the NT (Sorry, can't remember the book, chapter, or verse!!) where it says something about lion lying with a lamb.

Thank you for your reply. I have decided to have my dragons acknowledge The Creator. They are fallen; just like all creation fell when Adam sinned, but they know inside that they are created. They realize their purpose is to worship; they are born knowing that.

Ophelia - Marie

Very good choice on what to do. Glad you figured it out. =)

I think about this a lot too actually. But one thing I think about is: did God come just to save white people? The answer is an obvious "no." Well, given a fantasy story and the allegories therein are making parallels, could the human idea of various human races apply to the various inhuman races in a fantasy worlds?
Just something to consider.

Well, one thing you have to consider is that Jesus came only to save the human species. On Earth, we are the only ones with souls, thus we are the only ones saved - no elephant has even been saved, for instance. In my opinion, if we're talking about inhuman races with souls/spirits, then they're basically like humans. If not, then it's basically the same as saving the elephants. Of course, it all hinges on whether the race is a Being, or has a soul.

eru

*agrees with Andrew *

When they were created, did God give them a capacity to make decisions (beyond whether or not to climb the tree)? The question is: 'Did He give them free will, like humans have, to believe or not, or to follow or not?' If so, then they should have souls and be given a capacity for salvation. All creatures that have souls should be given a chance for salvation. That basically just repeated what I already said.
I was going to say what Elias said: you could have it be a sacrifice not for all men, but for all races and peoples. Does that help?