I was wondering how everybody went about foul language in their writing.

When I write I don't use the swear word or curse, but sometimes I use bits like, "he cursed under his breath" or "she swore in frustration." Because in the real world, when people are in tense situations or in danger their language seems to go bad or a swear word slips out.

Is that appropriate?

That's perfectly appropriate.

I can't bring myself to use anything stronger than 'blast' in a book or script........I have been told that sometimes you have to use bad language to get the point across about a character (my mom told me about Faith Like Potatoes, a Christian film in which the first part of the movie is about the MC before he gets saved. The MC uses bad language in that section, but she said it was justified because we needed to see how bad he was before he got saved) but I'm going to try to do it without using any actual bad words.

Plus, I shouldn't ask that of actors by putting it into the script. That's not respecting their consciences.

In books it's pretty easy - do it the way you said, maybe slip in 'blast' or something harmless along those lines once or twice just to get the point across, and let the reader assume that the characters do swear.

Readers are so nice. We can let them assume all kinds of things just by implying ever so slightly.

(speaking of assuming, I remember hearing about a film - I don't know who, what, or where - in which they figured out a way to imply swearing by cutting away to the next scene as a character began to swear. Got the point across - didn't actually have to say/hear anything really nasty.)

Ah yes, that makes sense! Thank you for the input, Mel! That's so weird to say when I'm used to using your birthname. XD

I'm trying to think of "safe, strong" words like blast... I started saying durn. It's silly, but sometimes I like to use that instead of darn which is what I usually say. I will put some thought into it. *thinking*

Yeah, I wouldn't want to use cuss words in my writing. I might use something like, "He let out a stream of profanity," but nothing more. Maybe a few safe words, like blast, darn, or snap.

I agree with... everyone, I guess



A lot of authors write like that... including my favorite, Bryan Davis.

I concur, when I was writing for script frenzy this year, I came upon that very problem, because a few of my supporting characters are rougher and/or antagonists. What I did, in some cases was have the character start to say something and then have someone else cut him off. I also turned what might have turned into vague cursing into a personal threat instead of having my bad guy say "there will be _____ to pay" I had him tell his crony that he would tie him to the outside of the dome (it's a sci-fi story). Also, one of my villains is russian, so I have him mutter in russian a few times, presumably he is cursing.

Hey, Armourbearer - you did SF this year too?

I didn't finish (too busy with Real Life and needed to structure the film a little better) but I got halfdone with my sci-fi speculative feature.

In the story I'm working on now I don't really have an antagonist right now, so swearing isn't a problem. There would be more of that in the other book that has been set aside for now since there is a warrior group and there's bound to be tension.

Wow...I think this can be a tough subject. The Bible talks about letting no unclean thing come out of your mouth, but characters with dirty souls aren't going to speak in formal English. (at least not usually.)

I think just saying that they were cursing, or maybe even hyphening words out like this ----- or this ****** could help maybe?

I think it really has to do with your conscience, and what you think your story and characters need to be realistic.

I'd probably just do what I've been doing writing "he cursed under his breath" or "she swore loudly" rather than specify a word or even hint what the word is with the number of "*'s." In my opinion, I would avoid using "*'s" for a bleeped out swear word. I don't think it looks very professional in an actual book whereas people do that on TV. (Not that I watch reality TV, but I channel flip occasionally.)

I've been considering this as well. It's a touchy subject. You don't want to offend the reader, but you also don't want your bad guy to sound well... like an English gentleman. I've been taking a Christian writer's course and they say you don't always have to use words like swear. For instance, in a conversation between mother and son you could put that the son "muttered under his breath." To which the mom could reply "Don't you dare use that kind of language!"

I'm still trying to figure out how that would work with a fantasy antagonist, but I thought it was still a thought worth sharing.

Jeff Gerke answered this question well here. Very good way to look at it.

ROFL!

Thanks so much for posting that. The man who wrote that is an absolute genius in my opinion. Great.

Melody-
Yes, I did script frenzy, I wrote a Sci-fi Pilot called Aldaeus, and my user name was Llama Newton Armorbearer the Third.

Hm...my only question is how Mr. Gerke can dislike swearing so much, and yet be not mind writing that is close to explicit. Thernardier is much easier to read about than "Dwayne."

Personally, I think the best way to demonstrate a profane character is to show how they act around nice characters. Then again, there's the saying "see the bear in it's den".

I wondered that too, Neil, but I think he was demonstrating how you don't need profanity to create profane characters. If you want profane characters, that is up to you. But publishers and readers are much more likely to let Dwayne through than Thenardier, for some weird reason.

I see your point.

Probably because Thenardier is simply evil, whereas Dwayne is more like a sensationalized evil.

I have a couple of times where a it was within a character's personality for some swearing (i.e. evil forces) Since I really don't even know any swear words (good thing!) I simply wrote that the MC 'winced at some of the words that came up from below from a hapless trooper whose grapnel failed to grip and fell back onto his face.'
I try to avoid putting anything that even mentions 'language' occuring, but in this world (especially once you start advancing in time and the culture decays even more), it's pretty hard to avoid. I agree with Willow Wenial: it depends on conscience, what you're comfortable with, what your convictions are, and the realism. If you're writing a record-style story, you probably wouldn't need to include the fact that so-and-so swore real badly when he hurt his toe, but if you're writing from a true story-telling perspective... it's kind of a different approach.

My $0.02

Well, we all agree that swearing is a sin, even if we don't agree on what swearing is. Due to a chat discussion, I thought the topic warranted a thread. I hope a mod swoops in here and tells us how much we can say while discussing this topic. . .

What do you think is swearing? Are the dumbed down words acceptable?
How do you handle swearing in your novel? Do you make up swear words for your world, or just use dialogue tags?
How much can a novel you're reading use before you chuck it in the trash?

I don't swear, at least I didn't think I did, however I do say Heck which Kat says is a swear word which I didn't realize.

I haven't (up to now) used swearing in my books, however I do think that when trying to portray a villain it would be very unrealistic if he was perfect, if he's a villain then he has to sin. I don't know if I'd be comfortable to write some swearing down, however when you're making someone in your books murder/kill, be a villain etc. aren't you making them sin there? So what is the difference? Someone (I can't remember who) said in the chat room, you could just simply say 'he swore', and I prefer that option rather than putting the actual word. However I can't make up my mind 100% as to where I stand on this topic. It will be interesting to see other people's thoughts on this.

Firstly I'll say I read novels based off of their themes so if it's a Christian novel and there is swearing to prove a certain point (like in Prophet by Frank Peretti) I'll keep going even though I don't like that part. If there's only a little here and there in an okay novel I'll keep going.

The origin of swearing is purely religious and is essentially calling upon your deity for whatever reason. If you know the meanings of modern swears (which I don't suggest seeking out) this may make sense. A good example is "holy cow" being so often heard from Buddhists.

Now if your parents have laid down the law on this one respect it. My personally opinion is hard to follow on how actual "fake" swear words are. I do know it's not wrong to use interjections as a whole but I prefer to stay away from anything to close. I don't consider "oh rats" a swear word even though it's used in an interjection context.

I hope this all makes sense.

I was hoping some more people would post before I posted.

I have a strange view on the world and everything in it. Now you're warned.

Swearing is a thing that to avoid means losing some credibility with the audience. It's also a thing that makes many of us feel guilty, especially if it gets to younger children who have never heard a swear word before. They may even be older, perhaps teenagers, and have never heard a swear word.

The problem with that is that part of being a novelist is that we're not supposed to create a bubbly world that's mostly perfect and sanitized. Not unless you're writing a childrens' story. Part of our job is to push the envelope, make people uncomfortable, shock them into what life is like so that we can take action to fix it. Swearing does that.

It also gives readers a taste of what life is like. They can't live life in a bubble. They may spiritually stumble, but what doesn't kill them makes them stronger. We are never tempted more than we can deal with, so not sanitizing novels can help them grow spiritually.

Hm, interesting topic, KitKat! My family have done some study on this kind of thing. (study, probably more like a lot of thinking and reading!) A lot of milder swear words are actually derived from bad swear words. 'darn' is a replacement for 'd*mn' and the full curse for that word has 'God' in front of it, which means d*mning God to hell. *shudder* Not a good one. What's worse, the 'dear' in "oh dear" derives from the same. We've found it hard to exclaim or complain without using words that aren't good.

I don't make any of my characters swear if I can help it. When I'm writing, I will just say that someone swore or cursed, without using the words themselves. However when I'm reading, I draw the line at excessive words that contain 'blood', too many 'd*mn's or take the Lord's name in vain.

@Varon: That's an interesting concept, however I find just about all swearing is vulgar, obscene and unnecessary. If a book has too much cursing in it, I don't finish it. You can describe a curse or a swear word in your book, and it has the same effect as saying the word itself. True, we can't live in a bubble. But we should be in the world, not of it. Although I'll be the first to admit it's hard not to exclaim something when you hit your thumb with a hammer.

A few of my thoughts, anyway.

If I have a character who "swears", I do not Not NOT put the words in. The chat conversation went on for, like, 4 hours, and I was there for most of it. It was really interesting... I didn't know that about "darn", Bush... *is rethinking her language now* I think saying "Oh my God!" is very bad, as it is referring to someone cursing God, basically. "Gee" and "gosh" mean "God", and I don't say those words. I prefer saying something different, like "Oh my goodness!" or "Oh my!" or "Oh my word!".

As a moderator, please remember to remain thoughtful and respectful and not condemn anyone else for their opinions or views. Also, I'm pretty sure no profanity whatsoever is allowed on the forum. So please try to compose answers that communicate without having to provide examples. We're discussing a principle here, not actual cases.

That said, my reply.

Are we talking about just swearing or profanity in general?

It depends on your target audience.

I do believe there is a limit. And I read an article someone linked to on the same subject pointing out that your characters don't have to use foul language in order to be accurate or evil.

However, I don't believe that there's never a place for swearing in Christian fiction. This is similar to the other issues we've brought up, of torture and suicide. Obviously, if you're writing YA you don't put it in unless very carefully handled. If your writing something intended for an older audience what is the difference between a high level of violence and a few choice swear words? If that's what it takes to tell your story, and if there's a reason.

My dad's take on the subject is that films and books use violence and profanity gratuitously. They use it for a shock effect, and just because they can. It isn't necessary. In reality, if you throw around R-rated words in ordinary life, what are you going to have left when you really mean it?

Example in case: The Princess Bride. Jay pointed out on that thread that Inigo's choice of words at the end was entirely appropriate. Yes, they weren't nice, but they weren't meant to be. And because his language is in general clean, it's very impacting when he says that. If the whole movie was peppered with profanity it would have been meaningless. I think that is the proper use of swearing in fiction.

I've seen that in one or two other books, where the character says something, and he says what he means, and it was done intentionally. I think characters that just have perpetually dirty language are pointless and defiling. We don't need to be subjected to that.

In my own case, Lightning Ranger is a serious, serious work, that I never expected to reach the levels it has, where I'm uncomfortable with younger people reading it, with violence and suicide, and torture, and everything else we've talked about. In that setting, I don't think swearing would be out of place, but I don't use it. Lightning swears, he's a heathen, he's a murderer, and I can imagine he talks that way. But in my book, he swears. He doesn't say anything.

Of course, if he did, since it's fantasy, it wouldn't even be modern day language. Which brings up an entire new field. I've been told and told you can't use modern slang in fantasy. Obviously. No "Okay" or "Yikes" if you can help it. And it drives me insane when they use modern swear words too, because it shatters the illusion, and makes me groan and roll my eyes. For that reason I'd say keep the swearing out of your novel.

And then! There's the invented swear words! (We talked about this somewhere, where did we talk about it?) Or words in another language. This way your character can talk freely while preserving your readers innocence. Because after all, it might be a terrible word in your world, and meaningless gibberish in ours.

Then again, there's the principle. Do you want to convey people swearing in your world at all? Is that corrupting the message of Christianity? They told me in the Suicide thread that it would be tragic, but not out of place for an unbeliever to commit suicide, and I think it's the same thing with swearing. Don't expect your unsaved characters to act perfect.

All in all I believe it depends on what your conscience tells you, and who your target audience is. If you're writing for the MACEC (Modern American Christian Evangelical Church) keep it clean. If you're writing for young people, keep it clean. If you're writing for Holy Worlds, keep it clean. Find another way to write, find a way to keep the violence and profanity out without corrupting your work. It can be done. If the book is dark and you use swearing, be aware that that's going to be a different audience, of people who can handle it, and who's parents don't disapprove.

Those are mine, too. I've got to stop using "for Pete's sake"... I don't use 'gee' or 'gosh' or 'heck' (heck deriving from hell) I really don't like the way so many people say 'Oh my God'.

Actually, to be honest with you guys, I put the 'd' word in a passage in my book once, and my brother told me to take it out. I felt guilty writing it, and I felt worse that my younger brother by two years had to tell me. Ever since then, I draw the line at 'darn' or telling the readers that the character cursed, without saying what the word was.

@Vanya: That was well put, Vanya. Thanks for that.

Technically it's calling on God to send something the Hell. But that implies we have that power over God which is just as wrong.

I don't think it's wrong to use "swears" in context. For example referring to the opposite of Heaven or the creature related to the donkey but other than that most swears are slang for crude terms as it is.

Loved your post Vanya and Bush, thanks.

I know when I was younger I would have hated to read a book with swearing in it. I even find it hard now and I think what is worse is the more you hear it the more accustomed you get to it.

Anyhow I decided since I wasn't sure to go and look in the Bible,

The Bible does say

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

And

Jas 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

So as long as I'm not taking those scriptures out of context or mistaking the meaning I feel I should avoid swearing really, in my opinion.

I strive to be a good example, by God's grace, to the people in the world around me and I wouldn't feel I was conveying that well if I was swearing.

Not trying to offend anyone here, it's just my opinion

Swearing: is making an oath. Swearing in this context is throwing away your word lightly, and purposelessly, making solemn vows meaningless. Swearing is exhorted against in the Bible as a general rule, because the world is uncertain. Swearing in the worldly context I think is even worse. The verse given is an excellent example.

Cursing: Cursing is wishing ill upon someone else. "May your hair turn green and your cows dry up." That is generally wrong, as it's a form of vengeance. Cursing in this context is usually less imaginative and also a lot of empty words and babblings. I believe the Bible talks against this too. Imagine if the curses asked for came true? And wishing anyone to Hell is clearly an act against the mercy of God.

Now you know what they mean and how to use them in fiction, (if you use them.) Knowing the context of the subject is always helpful. I don't think specific words are that important, as much as the intent. Hope I was somewhat helpful...

I lean towards your view, Elanor, and some of the Bible verses that caused me to include Ephesians 5:3-4 "But among you there must not even be a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving."

Loved both your posts, Elanor and Vanya. And I love that verse, Jonathan. I was thinking of the verse also, "But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No.' Whatever is more than these is of the evil one." - Matthew 5:37

I'm going crazy with my inability to post! * pulls hair out*

Why art thou so unable, Airi?

I'm on the fence about which words are bad and which ones are just plain stupid/vulgar... but I won't say any of them (even euphemisms/shortened versions) and I don't like characters to say anything I wouldn't say.

(...which is why it's interesting writing baddies because it hurts to have them be nasty to the MC...)

Because I don't have access to a computer, Aussie, and I'm not thumb typing my long response.

Personally, I choose to avoid it in my writing. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes I'm thinking over a scene and a character swears. Then I wince and try to think of another way to say it. I was raised to avoid the "minced oaths" (the substitute words), so I avoid those in my writing as well. On the other hand, it's hard sometimes to know where a particular interjection came from, so I suspect a few words I'm okay with might actually be variations on swear words.

I haven't ever bothered to make up swear words for my world. I think it would come out sounding tacky and absurd if I tried, to be honest.

When I'm reading, it bothers me a lot less. I do sometimes wince and skim over sections of writing if it's got a lot of swearing, but I've a higher tolerance for it when I'm reading. (Part of that might be that I like to finish things...I want to know how the book ends. )

I have a related question. Is it possible to say something that would normally be considered taking the Lord's name in vain, but in that particular situation it's actually more of a prayer? *hopes that makes sense*

Yes. I distinctly remember one time when my family almost ended up in a head on collision with someone. I heard my mom cry out "Dear God" as the lights flashed in our eyes. It was a prayer, not her taking the Lord's name in vain.

Aw, it's still not fixed? Hope you get it back soon!

And I agree, Airi. Sometimes when something happens in my life my first words are "Father God", in a simple prayer, not taking His name in vain.

I had also wondered about this topic. ^^

You'll find some more opinions here. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=590

I am on the school of thought that I should never write out swear words. It is unnecessary and unholy; there's a great risk to harming readers' consciences and turning off the audience. But, I don't have any problem at all with narrative phrases that simply state "he swore." That gives the flavor without listing words, and such phrases never cause me to stumble. I use them when necessary. (My favorite right now is: "Curses," he said, and offered a few examples.)

How much language before I close the book? There's no hard-and-fast count, but every instance multiples. It makes me cringe so horribly and pulls me out of the story. If I continue to read, it will be dubiously, and all other "faults" in the narrative will be taken more harshly. Swear at me, and a very thin thread of my already fragile attention is keeping me from slamming your book shut and never touching it again. Basically, I no longer trust you as the author. You lost my respect because you stooped to writing out foul language. You swore. You're the one that wrote it.

Now about "PG swearing," as a friend called it... that is a very slippery slope. As someone mentioned, some of them sound pretty harmless but are actually "softened" versions of worse words. I'll confess to using some of them; some of them I won't touch. It's a very bitter gray area that should be handled carefully. I won't write off a book (or a friend) on account of "PG swearing," though it irks me when it's in an otherwise nice movie because hearing it over and over deadens the senses.

And yes, I think some phrases that can be taken in vain can be used effectively, as long as it's clear in-context which it is.

I don't think making up swear words is very holy - after all, it's still swearing. Would you want your readers to take up that exclamation as their new phrase? But I won't write off a book on account of it.

I have to admit that my explanation didn't make any sense. It doesn't work with swearing, but it works wonderfully with subjects such as drinking and smoking. I apologize if my explanation confused you or anything.

Now... many of you have seen my other posts around the forum on swearing, and I don't have the time or the thumb power to type up another long post on the subject, however, I did want to bring one thing up. I find nothing more needless than swearing in a book. Especially in a book. You can just say "he swore". However, movies are pretty different. You can't enter in "he swore". So I have an issue when you have swearing that serves no real point other than to be vulgar. I think there are other, more effective ways to insinuate this, without damaging the ears of those watching. However, I want to make one exception, and bring it before you guys.

Anyone ever seen Second Chance? Awesome movie, although not everyone thinks so. I happen to think it is a powerful film that shows the biblical approach to "meeting people where they are at". That's another topic and sermon, so I won't go into that here. What I wanted to bring up was that the movie powerfully displays the humanness of the street wise, brash preacher of Second Chance. He came out of a gangish type background. He grew up in the Hood. So his language used to be an issue. This movie powerfully displays something. Our main character uses two foul words in the film, and goes to use another before his wife jabs him in an attempt to silence his mouth.

The use of language in this movie, in my opinion, is an exception. It held a purpose. It showed the struggle of a Christian conquering the old man and the old ways.

While I think swearing is unnecessary in book across the board, and needless in movies, this movie has my admiration, in spite of the language used.

Just something for you guys to think about. If anyone wants to question or contradict me, go ahead. I'd be willing to talk about it.

Thanks for sharing that link, Emeth. I found it very helpful.

Have any of you guys ever made up your own swear words? I read some book where the author made up all kinds of swears, and she was able to get across how "bad" they were by who was using it, and how the other characters reacted. It was hugely effective in developing the characters, but wouldn't make anyone "stumble." And it kind of makes sense if you're writing a completely new world, just because so much of the language has developed because of the history of the world. I know I always hate seeing "romance" in a world that has never had Rome. I don't know about how swears have developed, but out history has got to have some effect on them. Or our creatures; we wouldn't have the "b" word if we didn't have dogs.
Just a thought.

I've actually considered the idea of creating a "swear" word. Though, what I have in mind is more of an extreme insult, but isn't that what some swear words are?

Anyway.

My word (Jurk - yeah, there's a little joking behind that ) stems from the name of a tyrant: Jurksta-En. It doesn't have the same meaning as the word Jerk (though it would be pronounced the same). In my world (after Jurksta is defeated) the name Jurk implies that that person mirrors Jurksta; a horrible insult considering what the man had done.

Of course, if I were to use this in my book I imagine it would really knock my readers out of my world. Reading a word like "Jerk" in a medieval fantasy novel would throw me off. But it's there. I've created it even if I never use it.



In another direction, what is insulting to one race can be honoring to another race. Let's say my tyrant (Jurksta-En) was an honored king to one race and a horrible king to the first race. The first race would still hold the name Jurk to be insulting, while the one race might consider it an honor to be called a Jurk.

Modly insert: The two threads on swearing have now been merged.

Please proceed.

One thought about made-up swear words... even if you established that they were evil, I as the reader would have a hard time taking it seriously. It doesn't trigger that cringe in my mind that says - "Ouch. That's a bad word." Because I don't have that connection, I'm not going to give any weight to the word and I'm not going to begrudge the character for using it. It just doesn't have any effect on me. Basically, if you use made-up swear words, you nullify the effect swear words have so why write them at all? Just a thought.

I hate merged threads. Now I'm not sure which posts I've read.

Wow, didn't even know you could merge threads. That's awesome!

And... confusing.

So... What does everyone think of my thoughts in my last post?

As I just did in the 'Implied Nakedness' topic, I'm going to take a more liberal stance here as well.

My main goal when writing is to get across a point. In my trilogy of thrillers, I deal with sex trafficking. I have despicably evil characters, and they have to be that way for the story to work. In fact, many of my main characters do not start out as Christians, so some of them swear as well. I have used (and will stick to) d**n, h**l, b*****d, and b***h. Those last two I usually only use for their true meanings.

I write gritty books. But I show the evil for what it is, and that's where these sorts of topics should differ between Christian and secular authors.