So, dreams in your writing. Do you do it, or do you abstain from it?

I ask this question because I have read a lot where people always say "Cut the dream, you never need to use dreams!" when it comes to film and to novels. However, I have a problem with that statement. Dreams are a big part of our life, we all have dreams, good and bad, so why should fiction, which is our portrayal of reality (albeit at some times alternate or amended reality) not keep this vital aspect of our lives?

I also ask this question because I am working on a story that relies heavily on dreams, (it was even inspired by a dream) and I'm curious as to what you have to say.

So, to dream or not to dream?

What are their reasons that you should not use dreams?

There are several reasons people give, some people just think they take up too much time and space in stories, and are not necessary.

However, some of the more decent reasons are that they might be stretching the reader's mind a bit too much. They are already reading fiction, which they already know is not real, and some people think that taking them into a fiction within your fiction might be too much and cause them to lose interest.

Others, point out that dreams do very little to advance plot. They really don't have much effect at all on the world your characters live in - it's just a dream after all, so how would it change the plot? (Unless you use supernatural elements.)

Some people just say there has to be a better storytelling tactic to use. Like flashbacks, sharing information through conversation, etc. Which is a valid point, but I think you can work dreams just like you work flashbacks and conversations to your benefit.

However, in some stories (like the one I'm writing) dreams can be used to advance the plot, because it shares information with the character that he would normally have no way of obtaining. (Supernatural method.)

They can also be used to deal with issues that you normally cannot do in the narrative, especially if the character wishes to "avoid the subject". A character can't avoid a dream. These can be past traumas, painful memories, emotional distress, and concern for another character. It also shows the lingering effects of some trauma, even if they have come to terms with it.

When it comes to dreams, you have to weigh the pros and the cons, finding out how it would benefit your story, and if it would hurt your story in any way.

I agree. Dreams aren't something to avoid, just something to be careful with.

My dreams have saved my plot a number of times. A character is no greater than the author.

I would have voted, but there was no option entitled 'Once'

Ooh! I like this topic!

So, I haven't used dreams in my stories yet, I don't think, but I do think they can be a very useful tool.

In the 1970's TV show The Incredible Hulk, they used a recurring dream in the pilot episode. It was like a flashback (it was the death of Banner's wife), but it was important that it was a dream because it, first of all, showed a lot about Banner, what he had and was going through, it was realistic, and it did help progress the plot later. Then, throughout the series, Banner had a couple more dreams, and they added on to each other. Again, it showed a lot about Banner and what he was going through, made him a 3D character, and just added so much to him.

I think there are times when dreams might be more of a hinderance than something that adds to the story, but if done right, it can be a very awesome tool.

I actually love dream scenes. Then again, I agree that they shouldn't be used as fluff or filler. They should have a purpose. I have only used a dream scene once, but it worked well with the scene. Like Jonathan said, don't avoid them! But we as authors should be careful.

There's one of the good uses of dreams, to develop characters by dealing with in their subconscious mind what you can't always deal with in the conscious mind narrative. That's a fine example. (And a good show. )

Dreams have been ruined for me. Too often have I heard a harried Nanowrimoer say, "Don't have enough word count...I think I'll go write a dream sequence!" It's just filler that I don't want to waste my time on!

Bleck. I hate them. Either at the beginning of the dream I think, "Oh, great, another dream sequence," (because most of them are very cliche and you can just tell it's a dream), or I get to the end and I'm like, "What?! It's a dream!?!? Not cool!" And I feel cheated that I've been putting all this energy into a plot that now turns out to be fake.

Also...some of the foreshadowing in dreams? It's completely un-subtle, like when a character dreams a dream with the EXACT same scene as appears later in the book. Why do I want to read the exact same thing twice? I don't.

Some skillful people can maybe write good dream sequences that wouldn't make me feel this way, but it isn't just a matter of "can a dream be useful"? It's a matter of "why use a dream when you can use something else and do it better"?

Unless part of your plot needs to take place in a dream world (i.e. telepathic connection/conversation, or a link between dreams and reality *looks at Evie* ) then character development, prophecies, visions can all be done MUCH better without dream sequences.

*ends the grumpage* Anyway...that's why I strongly discourage dreams.

That is a very good point, but I still think that dreams can be very useful. Such as a nightmare that haunts the character, or a dream that shows what the character is feeling in a way they couldn't possibly in any other way.

Going back to The Incredible Hulk, David Banner has a nightmare about his first wife's death. Then he had a nightmare about his second wife dying that added on to the first dream. It all showed his pain, frustration, anger, sadness, etc. in such a beautiful way. It showed us into his mind, what he thought, what was running through his brain... I felt like it gave his character development that couldn't be given any other way. But, I will say, the dream was original material that did add to the story - it wasn't cliche or a filler or a scene that would happen later. It really added to the character.

But that being said, when people write them like you're saying, Willow, I can see it being awful. So I think we just need to determine why and how we're doing dream sequences. If they're effective and serve some kind of purpose aside from just giving the story more word counts, then I think they're fine. But when they're not necessary, they shouldn't be in the story.

What about opening a book with a dream?

For example, the opening chapter of Raising Dragons by Bryan Davis is a dream. It's not completely clear until Billy wakes up, and it makes you think something is happening that isn't. Also, it is completely unsubtle foreshadowing.

Does that kind of thing annoy you? Or is it a good way to open a book that might have a slightly boring beginning otherwise?

Same.

I think it'd have to be done really well to not bug me at least a bit. I mean, if you look at the first paragraph and go, "oh, cool, (fill in the blank) is happening!" and then it all turns out to be a dream, it's kind of a let-down. I'd rather have a slightly boring beginning than an exciting one that's fake.

I think it would make me mad. In the beginning of The Door Within by Wayne Thomas Batson, he does something that sounds pretty much the same as what you've described. And I basically hated it. I'm still reading the trilogy, but the first chapter almost completely turned me off. It was a really cheap hook, and it wasn't needed.

Give your readers a little more credit. If someone has picked up your book (and is your average reader), they are WANTING to enjoy your story, and a slightly "boring" beginning with an excellent character will grab their attention long enough for something interesting to happen. Some of the best classics have the most boring beginnings.

If your story naturally begins with gripping action, then fine! But don't put in a dream to make it more exciting. If you do absolutely NEED a dream to do that, then there's a problem with the rest of your story (characterization probably.)

I thought that's what y'all would say, and I agree... but I figured I would ask anyway.

OK, so in my NaNo story, I just argued with myself on whether or not I should include a dream in it, because of this thread. So I have decided to share the dream segment that I made and see what y'all think. I wanted to see what you'd say to this type of dream:



The dream here serves many purposes: 1. It reiterates a prophecy that the reader may have forgotten, so it gives them that reminder. 2. It shows the torment Cronus is going through.

Does this type of dream work for y'all? It's short and obviously a dream because it is in italics. It just has that little sense of being a dream that helps out the scene. It shows the reader a little bit of the mind of the character.

Let me know if what I have said doesn't make much sense...

But there are some novels where dreams play a big role. Take the Percy Jackson series as an example.

I love using dreams! I can be a bit too fond of them, so I try to be careful, though. I generally just use them to bring subconscious feelings to the surface, but in my latest novel I needed one for plot reasons -- one character is a sleepwalker, and needed a dream that would explain certain actions. So it just depends... I think it's like anything in a story, actually, think it through, make sure you have a solid reason and use it correctly.

Well said.

Thank you!

I use dreams on occasion but usually only for my main character. I do tend to go elaborately overboard, a habit I'm trying to break.

A man's thoughts can tell us about himself, and a man's dreams can tell us about his thoughts...

I think this sounds great. It's a good use of a dream, and it is very very short. It could do without it, since you sort of explain what he was waking up about later...but I think it probably is better with the little bit in there.

I think it's very imaginative.

With the exception of Chapters -1, 0, and the ending, Dream of a Shrouded Quest is a dream, albeit a long and very realistic dream in a coma.

Nearly an entire book based around a dream during a coma. That's one I hadn't thought of. Having never been in a coma (hallelujah! ) I wouldn't know what sort of dreams you might have.

I don't even know one does dream while in a coma. Plus, it's more than just a dream.

This exploded while I was gone...

Cool thoughts, guys, (and gals) lots to think about here.

Willow I hate to spoil this for you but the whole dream thing is actually VERY important to the plot.

The trouble with that argument is that eating, sleeping, other basic bodily functions, inane chatter, and so on are also major and (for some of those examples) vital aspects of our lives, but they should rarely (and in some cases vanishingly-rarely) come into the story as the focus of a scene (which would be far less obtrusive than a dream sequence).

As others have already said, for nearly every purpose that a dream sequence can be used (I distinguish the standard dream sequence from a "dream summary," in which you summarize what the POV character dreamed in at most a paragraph) there's almost always a far better way of accomplishing that goal without taking us out of the story. A dream sequence is usually like an infodump (and some dream sequences are infodumps!), in that it's an extended digression from the story to advance one element of the story. Very occasionally this can be well done, especially if you advance more than just one element of the story (as Heinlein made the chapter on space-suit maintenance in Have Space Suit, Will Travel into both fascinating prose and more than an info-dump), but unless you've exhausted all other possibilities or you really know what you're doing, I think dream sequences should be avoided.

How? I finished the trilogy, and basically, all it does is start the first book off by telling us the ending...

I can totally see the frustration with just throwing out random dream sequences like that, or using them only for hooks, etc. But after watching the Incredible Hulk pilot once again, I must say that the dream sequences have a lot of impact in them because they show the audience what David Banner is thinking, what influences him, what makes him tick, his background, what he is feeling. It has so much emotion and shows so many things that just can't be expressed in words and really only do work as dreams, or at least something going on in Banner's mind.

I may have asked this earlier, but do you find dreams with the purpose of showing us more about a character and helps us relate to him more still not acceptable? Do you think that writers should be able to give the readers this in another way? If so, what ways are you thinking of? I think you may have mentioned this before, but I'm curious to know in a little more detail what you think would work better than dreams.

Also, for those of you who do think that dreams can be an effective tool, how many different ways have you seen dreams used? Which ways have been the most effective? Which ones have not worked very well? What ways have you thought about or used that you think are kind of original or fascinating ways to use dreams?

I might have said this already, but I think that dream sequences tend to work best when they're vague and/or have something in them that doesn't make realistic, logical sense. Because that's more realistic in general... even though dreams can be quite realistic, they tend not to be, and having some bizarre element often seems to help give an edge to the dream, and it can be something psychological, too, which gives some insight into the character's fears or something.

Well, it would seem to me that dreams could be included to the extent to which they're important somehow. It may always be a good idea to make it clear that it is a dream, though, to avoid the whole 'it was just a dream' thing.

Yes, most definitely. The whole "it was just a dream" thing generally just irks me.

Good thing I read the whole thread before I voted... I thought you meant, do you take elements from your dreams and put them into your books!

I know Rick Riordan uses dreams quite heavily in his stories (Percy Jackson and The Olympians, Kane Chronicles, Heroes of Olympus), and he does it well. Me, I don't. At all. At the most, I say the character has gone to bed, then wakes up the next day. That's it. Maybe mention how nice his pillow is - I don't know, but basically, that's it.

I accidentally voted wrong - I said I sometimes use dreams. Actually, I don't think I've ever used a dream in anything I've actually written. For stories in my head? Yes. That said, I don't know if I ever will or not...

You know, it looks like most people have a problem with dreams when they're supposed to be for story development, but not so much if the dreams are used for actual character development. Do I have that right?