What Elanor, Elizabeth, Bush, and Brendan just said was brilliant. I totally agree about forgiveness and the primacy of the Gospel. Makes me excited.

However, we must also remember that forgiveness requires traveling down the two-lane street of reconciliation, and the other lane is repentance. Repentance is being truly sorry for what one has done, and changing his ways.

Bush hit it on the head when she said:

I think the best way to move forward is for everyone to lay their cards on the table so we can have reconciliation. Forgiveness without it is psychologically unhealthy codependency.

Then what you want isn't people not caring about the leadership, but not caring about whichever issues caused the argument. Which might be good, but just dropping things that created issues and were issues without addressing them seems to me like something that will simply make them appear again. Dropping the war doesn't automatically stop it from happening again. I think love is the solution more than not caring. Stopping the war while ignoring what caused it seems like a bad idea to me; what's needed is to not war about it. Some issues people need to care less about, others don't necessarily need less caring, but more understanding, and a greater focus on other things. Unity doesn't have to mean pretending differences don't exist, but setting them in their appropriate places and not treating them as more important than they are. As more important than the goal.

I've definitely felt out of the loop. And I'm in leadership.



In order for this to happen, all of the facts must be presented. The reason I haven't posted in this thread, aside from my initial post welcoming Elanor, is because I've been searching for all of the facts. While your initial post may have good points and valid merit (Right now, I do feel like I disagree with some of it, but other parts of it I understand and may agree with. I think I may need to read it over again. I respect your position, and understand you have valid reasoning behind it. Thank you for sharing what you felt needed to be said, whether everyone agreed with you or not.), honestly Inesdar, I felt like it put me further in the dark instead of brought things to light. You were very vague and didn't share all of the situation.

Also, we need to have everyone present their sides of the story. This issue doesn't involve just one person, so it automatically involves lots of perspectives. We don't have all of the facts here, so any conclusions would be inaccurate. If you truly want to help clear up the issue, please share it all. If your goal is to clear things up, don't speak vaguely as that only makes things more confusing.

I'm not going to share my opinion on this issue right now as I still feel like I don't have the entire picture. I also want to pray about it. But I still stand by my support for Elanor. However she got here, she's our administrator. I respect her for this, I know she's under a lot of pressure right now, and she can use all of the help she can get. I believe that she will do her best to improve the forums and help the community thrive. Thank you, Elanor, for working through this with us and giving your best to the forums.

I do think that discussion is important. As painful as it may be, without communication, lots of bad things happen. Our family has been going through this very thing. Years of miscommunication is not fun to solve. But it's worth it, because now we're growing stronger as a family. We don't necessarily focus on past issues, but those past issues do come into play and are worth discussing for a time. However, I do ask that people please continue to be respectful and look at the events and the issues while treating people with respect. Let's not hurt each other. Let's search together for the truth in this situation and figure out how to resolve it and let the forums move on in a positive and beneficial way.

I guess my point is... discussion is beneficial. Openness is beneficial. But we all need to agree to be open and to not point fingers. I have a feeling it was everyone's fault and nobody's fault. But everyone has a different side of the story. And that doesn't mean one story is necessarily wrong or right (including Jay's). As far as we know, they could all be right and fit the puzzle to make a complete picture.

For now, can everyone do me a favor? Take a deep breath in slowly, hold it for five seconds, and let it out slowly. Repeat 4 times. Although this is difficult and hurts, it's okay. The world is not ending. I do think communication will help us get on the right path in our relationships moving forward. Just remember that we're all people who deserve respect. Take one more deep breath. It's okay.

As for Kaitlyn and Grace, I am very sad to see them leaving. They have both contributed to the forums in an amazing way. I respect their opinions, feelings, and experiences, though. I pray that you two will continue to pursue God and writing as you have done on these forums. Make a difference in the world for good. And I hope one day you will be able to return. But, until that day, God bless you.

And Eli, good post.

I would like to suggest that we all take a break from this thread for just a few hours. Get some ice water, some tea, or another relaxing beverage. Think about these things slowly. Consider them. Get council. Ask people questions in private. Watch your favorite TV show. Let things settle in your head and get clear vision. Even sleep on it. And pray.

I'd like to encourage a prayer session in chat for tomorrow. I feel like we need to come together as a community, calm down, and focus on God. When we do, amazing things can happen. If other people like this idea, I'm happy to work on organizing a time in another thread.

...

Honestly I saw problems with the leadership here when I joined in February 2010. Not being a person fond of conflict, my rebellious actions were small and few, accounting for only about a couple dozen pages of leadership discussing me in the mod forum, a thread I have since read for myself.

I occasionally expressed a desire to work my way into some form of leadership, with the intentions of making things more open--privacy has its place, but the level of privacy I have seen here regarding disagreements and hurtful things borders on covering up evil.

Nobody wants to talk about the gritty stuff. So keep it private. Discourage open debate and difficult subjects and requests for prayer regarding bad things that are happening.

You can see what the result has been.

I stand with Brendan all the way, and I am glad nobody took down his post. He has a right--and a duty--to speak his mind on important matters. Wherever, whenever, and however he deems it right.

First, and most importantly, I'd like to publicly say that I fully support the Lady Eleanor and pray for her to receive divine guidance in the new and very difficult role she will be playing.

I didn't hear any gossip at all for months. The first whiff I got of a bad smell was Brendan's goodbye post, and even then it took a couple weeks and a few other small events before I started to consciously realize what was going on.

I won't be saying much of anything here (partly because it's not my nature and partly because my schedule makes keeping up with one thread nigh impossible, let alone commenting on a single thread), but if I feel a need to comment I will. There's another half-thing in me that feels like it needs to be said, but it doesn't quite make sense yet. If it does I may return here to comment again.

Amen.

Hehehe, I fondly remember when I was the inexperienced mod who had to deal with the incorrigible Luke-of-many-names.

I agree with Brendan, Grace, Kaitlyn, Eli, and Matt.

Stephanie, I have no issue with you being leader. I want you to know that right now. I am not attacking you.

What I do have an issue with (not addressing Stephanie specifically) is the dishonesty and unjust conduct, which Kaitlyn has told me about (and yes, I fully believe every word she says), that went on during the process of changing over leadership.
I also have a lot of issues with the leadership system itself, but I won't go into that.

A community cannot be built on dishonesty, secrecy, and discord. I do not like what HW is turning into politics-wise, and this is my first public statement of the fact that I may very well follow Kaitlyn and Grace out the door.

I'm not going to explain what has gone on behind everyone's backs, because I don't think that it's my place. Sorry to not alleviate any of the confusion. But there has been a lot of hurt and betrayal going around.

I'm not going to say much about whether other people were right to post what they did, because that's not my place either as a lowly HRM who has been pretty inactive for a couple months now.
What I will say is that I believe in an individual's right to free speech and to express their opinion.
Or do you (addressing those who want to keep all concerns private) want more secrets, divisive discussion, and gossip going around the forum behind your backs?

I agree with what E said about forgiveness. I also agree with what Eli said about repentance and reconciliation. Until certain people have made amends and reconciled with certain other people (whom I will not name), I may forgive, but I will not forget. I won't forget how my friends have been hurt by the people entwined in these goings-on. I won't forget why Kaitlyn is leaving.

And yes, I have brought this up in private to Jay. In fact, I told him off for the way he has acted.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I don't want to argue or cast down anyone's opinion. This is me, stating my own thoughts, opinions, and decisions.

(I also respect that all of the posts on this thread - as far as I can tell - have been left up and not removed. I think we need to hear everyone's opinion on this, and have it out in the open, as long as it is conscientiously and thoughtfully worded.)

For many reasons I had no intentions of posting in this thread, but I feel that I need to set the record straight and comment on a few things, as I am still in leadership for the present.

Firstly, I have not left the forum, as of yet, and I am sorry that you all had to hear about my forthcoming departure this way. I wanted things to be in order and have my posts fully written before announcing it (with the exception of certain individuals I did not want to be blindsided by my departure). I do not think it is fair to you guys for you not to know the reasons why I am leaving, and thus, I will not be leaving silently. I would not do that to you. So know that I am still here, for the moment. Until you hear from me and read my own words of goodbye, I have not left.

Secondly, too much has been left in private for far too long, and that includes secrets from the leadership, as has been the case for myself and several others. Part of the problem we have is that EVERYTHING happens in private, and then whispers of goings ons end up reaching our ears and we have to investigate. That isn't okay. I mean, my goodness, most of the forum thinks that the Council wanted to be a closed group when in all actuality some of the Council, myself included, told Jay we needed to cycle off old, inactive Council members and cycle on new, active council members. People like Jonathan and Aubrey. Jay was the one who said no to the idea. But instead, the Council members get blamed for the stagnantation of the rank.

Perhaps Brendan could have worded things better and made his intentions more clear, but the reality is, discussions should be being had. They haven't been being had for a long time, and the forum members only get fed the information certain individuals want them to have. Our forum members are smart. They can think for themselves. Instead of us always censoring things, we should allow them to weigh and measure the words being spoken. I mean, look at the amount of maturity in some of the comments made in this thread.

I have little else to say at the moment. My plans and position on things will be made known in due time, but I don't want to jump the gun and say things in a way that they shouldn't be said. I'd rather continue to prayerfully consider my words and construct what I feel the Lord has laid on my heart to share.

We should all be in prayer over this. Remember that this forum is simply a vehicle by which we are all able to come together. The community should come first. Do not sacrifice your friendships for the sake of some vision imparted as the essence of Holy Worlds. The essence of Holy Worlds is us. The individuals who make it up. We are what matters. The plans and future for Holy Worlds can burn to the ground for all I care, so long as the people remain intact. Don't lose sight of what matters.

Amen to that.

This. Enough said.

Amen.

100% Agreed. I have said more than once one of the strengths of Holy Worlds is that is cares. As for past wrongs (whether or not they are genuine wrongs) Keep in mind we are all the same. Sinners saved by Grace. Even if there is/was sin who does God use? Well lets see He used the apostle Paul who was a former murderer to write half the New Testament and He called king David a man after His heart and he was also a murderer and an adulterer. Two verses for thought


Proverbs 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very (or close) friends.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things

*Smiles* Just so you guys know, I haven't disappeared. Joys of being in a totally different time zone to you all. I was working this morning, and I'll get to all the PM's and comments this afternoon and evening.

I just want to say that I'm glad we started this discussion. I was worried at first, not because I didn't want things to come to light, but because I know how much hurt has gone on in Leadership over this and I didn't want it traveling right down into the forum. But I guess we're past that. I think the storm was brewing, and we needed this.

There is a lot of secrecy. It's true. The discussion of a new admin etc has been going on for 8 months now in the Council Hall, and I haven't known about it for all that time. Jay has talked with Council Members etc for 8 months about all this. And to be honest, in my opinion, that's too long. But I didn't have a say in that, the discussion was between them and Jay. Prolonging this change hurt the forum, but it also yes hurt members. That's not good, and it's not acceptable but it happened. I don't know what has gone on between Jay and Kaitlyn, Brendan and Jay etc, I have no idea. But the hurt is there, I can feel it and see it. It's not right, but I can't fix that hurt in the end. It's between them. I'm sorry if a part of my actions has played a part in this hurt. I'm more than willing to apologise and try to make things right; none of my actions were out of the want to hurt anyone. If I did hurt someone, it wasn't intentional and I'd want to make it right.

Jay did post in the Council Hall in June to let the Council know that I was his current candidate or whatever you want to call it, but sadly not all of them saw it/read it. Which means that some of them were left out of the loop, and they weren't happy that they weren't more involved in the choice when they found out about it from others. I wasn't happy that they were unhappy, but I did believe that waiting for weeks or a month or whatever longer was not a good choice, and I believed that we could work through leadership changes after the main change. Sadly some people are too upset or feel too sidelined to do that. I'm not saying I'm right, that I did the right thing and everyone else is wrong. I could have made the wrong choice, but I did what I believed was best, and not despite everyone. I made it perfectly clear I was willing to carry on talking about the leadership changes we had planned, and I still am. I am not closed to hearing concerns. You don't feel that something will work, then tell me. I want to hear, and I am more than willing to hear any concerns. I personally think we should be able to work through concerns and figure things out, rather than people leaving.

Shorty, if you have concerns with how I handled something, then please do PM me about it. I don't mind people telling me if they think I did something wrong, and I'm more than willing to talk about it and explain my actions or apologize etc.

However, all that said. I don't know that it wasn't good or advisable for Jay to talk with CMs for months before making a change. I am on another writing forum, and they recently changed admin as well. No discussion with the forum at large went on about it, it just happened. Everyone was surprised but they accepted the admins decision to hand off to a new admin. It happens on forums, and the admin hands over. I don't think it's something that we need to view as forum destructing, and personally I don't think 8 months discussion needed to go into it. But that's what happened, and I didn't have a say, that was between Council and Jay in the end.

Also, I never acted as though I had been given the job of admin until it was actually handed over. Maybe that was wrong of me, but I was completely aware that it could all fall through and I just never really spoke of it much. I had prayed about it, and my attitude was if it happens it happens. I wasn't hiding it, at least that was not my attitude at all, I just didn't act as though it had happened. I just continued being me and carrying on with my position as an ML. I also thought that all the CM's knew about me, as I was aware that Jay had posted in the CM Hall. I wasn't aware until recently that Airianna was unhappy, and had not seen Jay's post. However I was aware that discussion about things in general had been going on for 8 months, and I didn't feel that waiting even longer was beneficial. My actions were not supposed to spurn anyone, I made it clear that I was willing to carry on talking and discussing especially the Leadership concerns people had. Putting an admin in place does not mean that everything else is set in stone. I have ideas yes, but that doesn't mean I'm closed to hearing if someone says Oh, I think I see a potential problem with that, see this is what I think, etc.


I'm willing to try to reconcile differences, I'm willing to ask for forgiveness if I have done wrong, and I am more than willing to try to work towards a peaceful harmony on here. However others have to be willing for that as well. If emotions are high at the moment I understand if people are too upset with me for that, and I won't press it. But I am willing and I'm here. My part in this was not to cause upset, to sideline people or to be divisive.



Definitely. I completely agree with this. Prayer is so important at this time. And thanks as well, Legatus, for reminding us of those verses.

I know I haven't replied to you all individually. I plan to read and reply more, this is just part of me opening up and talking.

Thank you for being open and sharing this here, Elanor. I really appreciate it.

And now I'm just confused and haven't the slightest clue what everyone's talking about.
Which probably means either nobody lied to me or I haven't discovered it. Because I'm not aware of any dishonesty. Just a whole lot of stupidity. Anyone who wishes to enlighten me can please do so PRIVATELY. But now you know maybe why I don't agree with ya'll...

And with that, I'm done.

I'm leaving this thread now, and I'm not coming back. I don't want to read Grace's and Kaitlyn's exit posts. I don't want to watch the rest of the carnage. I'm going to go write and party and when I do return to the forum I'm going to pick up the pieces and I'm going to do great things. If you don't want to be a part of that it's your loss. I'm available to talk, if people want to talk. I'm always willing to listen, but you have to be willing to deal with me telling you the truth in response. I have four income-producing jobs, but I'm here.

I want to leave you with one thought. When you pack your bags and leave in a huff: who are you following?

Are you angry that your opinion wasn't considered? Then you're not following Christ.
Are you jealous because the person you wanted wasn't chosen? Then you're not following Christ.
Are you secretly upset because you won't be in power anymore? Then you're not following Christ.
Are you miffed because you're not popular enough to sway public opinion? Then you're not following Christ.
If you refuse to forgive until someone repents then you are not following Christ.

If you are looking for attention, or sympathy, or recognization, if you are leaving because of who or how or why the leadership was chosen, if you're leaving based on the testimony of one, or a few select—then you are leaving for selfish, petty, human reasons. And you are following a man, not Christ.

I'm struggling to write this diplomatically, because honestly I'd be glad to see this kind of attitude leave the thread. I want to state that I am calm and asking you to apply logic, not reacting out of anger. It is very difficult to read emotion in text, but you are coming off as rather snarky.

If, as you said, you don't know what's going on, why do you assume that you understand everyone's motivations?

What if they're leaving because they had the opportunity to take control for themselves and didn't because they respected the friendship they had with the leader? But now they feel betrayed by the leader who didn't apparently have the same respect? (But then, that would be me speaking out of turn, since it doesn't actually involve me.)

I'd say that would be a pretty good reason to leave. It has nothing to do with the childish, selfish motivations you mentioned and everything to do with trust, respect, and healthy boundaries.

I understand the reason things were done the way they were. Tactically it was sound. I'm afraid the cost may be higher than was anticipated. No, I don't think the forum will collapse, but I do think that there are relationships involved that will quite possibly never be mended. That makes me sad. Because I was not involved in all the conversations between the estranged parties I cannot say who was in the wrong. Neither can you.

Katie dearest, if you don't understand, you have no right to make assumptions as to the reasons why people might leave. I understand where you are coming from, and I feel your frustration, but until you have been in the shoes of every other HWer, you can't possibly pass judgement on what the truth is.

I know I have no right to say anything. I don't know all the inside details. I don't know where ya'll are really coming from... But please, let's not fight. Let's not argue, and get riled up, and say things that we will wish we had not once we have cooled off. Please. I love you all, and...it hurts to see people argue. Let's not have hard feelings. God has different plans for each of us, and they are great plans. Even though some of His plans may include saying goodbye. We really can't grudge Him for that, can we?

I have now said my say, and will say no more.

It brings tears to my eyes to return from my camping trip (Internet issues prevented me from telling you all I'd be gone for a week - my apologies!) and find HW in this manner. This is not the same community I joined in 2011. Things have changed over time, both changes for good and for bad. I long to see the same HW it was when I joined.

I love you all so much. Having read Airi's and Grace's goodbyes, I have to decide for myself if this is a forum I can continue support. You won't find me saying much in the next few weeks... I'll be here, listening, moderating, and praying hard about all of this.

In the meantime, I encourage you all to devote yourselves to prayer about everything. Pray that the truth would come to be made known. I, too, like many others, was left in the dark about all these happenings. I realise now that there was too much secrecy in how the forum was run, and that was wrong.

But we still have to act in a Christlike manner. Christ forgave us when we were completely undeserving of forgiveness. And if we do not forgive like He did, we will be treated the way we deserve to be treated on judgement day. Those whom we bear grievances against may be unrepentant and undeserving of forgiveness, but it is not our job to judge. Matthew 7:1-2 says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." We also have the blessing of knowing we don't have to use our human judgement, but that everyone will be measured equally by God's perfect judgement.

Please, I beg you, think and pray hard about your decisions in this manner before giving your opinion and deciding whether to leave or stay. Let your conversations be full of grace, my dear friends, so that you may represent the One True God with your words.

One more thing: After I post this, I will be taking the mimetes out of my name, as at this point I am unsure if I can continue to support Jay in such a manner.

Brothers and sisters, I cannot say anything else except again urge you to lift your concerns to the Lord. I have read the promises concerning prayer in the Bible and have seen it's power at work. Pray, and the Lord will make your way clear.

In Christ,
Rose

I have only been here since December 2012, but I know that this community has been such a blessing to me. With respect to everyone who has posted, I will just say that I am and will continue to pray for Holy Worlds.

Amen. That is what is needed most here.

Yes, more than ever holy Worlds should be in our prayers.

Great post Rose. I will be praying.

OK, can I call a time-out for a moment, so that I, the normally hot-headed writer of hot-headed posts, can try to be a peacemaker for a moment?

In fact, I have, and this is not an exaggeration, a great deal of responsibility for misbehavior of all the misbehaving people in this discussion. Because I did something horrible that set this whole, horrible attitude problem rolling.

Everybody is calling for the complete story, the full truth, about what is going on with the leadership and the problems between different individuals.

Well, here's as much of the full truth as I know, and an explanation of why I am at least partly to blame for all this fuss.

Many months ago, Jay made an announcement that he was seeking out a replacement for himself. I don't think I can reveal all the details, because some of them are private, but suffice it to say that the Council was not happy with the proposal.

So, did I go about presenting my issues with it in a rational, constructive manner? No, I did not.

I called for Jay to be banished, permanently, from Holy Worlds. My reasons were thus: Jay's conviction was jeopardizing the future of the entire ministry an it was his fault. I also accused him of being deceptive about the facts behind his conviction and even (it shames me now) implied that I believe he may in fact have been guilty of his charges.

Yes, I did those things. I regret it deeply.

I succeeded in riling about the other Council members and starting a huge argument between the two different "sides."

What you see now is an extension of this conflict.

I have since made up with Jay, apologized for my very wrong attack on his character and choices, and made that known to the Council.

But it seems that Brendan and other who I poisoned against Jay still have a bone to pick.

To those who still hold a grudge against Jay:

You are wrong. Even if you don't agree with Jay's choices, you have no right to judge him the way I did. You are Christians and therefore owe him your grace and forgiveness. Look beyond his faults to see all the good that God has used him for. Look beyond the wrong you perceive to have been done to you, to see that you have done wrong in turn.

To those who hold a grudge against Brenden, Arrianna, and the others:

You too are wrong. The last thing this issue needs is sides, which you have needlessly created. Respond to this anger with understand and peacefulness, not combativeness.

To you all:

This is partly my fault and so I take responsibility for it. I have done wrong. And my silence has caused more wrong.

Brenden, I no longer agree with you. This war against Jay and his "culture" is wrong. The war others are waging against you is wrong.

For better or worse, we have moved beyond Jay's time. Let us set the past aside instead of holding it against the present.

I don't know what else to say. I can't stress how guilty I feel for this all.

This is what I know about the situation. I am certain it is more complex. But this was my part in it all. Now it is out in the open, where it can, hopefully, be dealt with, so that we can move on.

And I would like to ask that those who have the power to do such things, would post the entire topic in which this debate began where everyone can see it. I believe that it is now the only way in which this can be laid to rest. Let everyone see what a beast I was, and how the argument went down. Then everyone can draw informed conclusions about the presence or non-presence of deceit, divisiveness, and our mistakes.

Thankyou for your post, Neil. However I don't think the guilt you feel is entirely warranted. You were acting out of what you felt was for the good of the forum, not out of spite, and I'm sure many of us have entertained the notion that Jay may have been guilty indeed. I'll say that on my part without fear, because I honestly didn't know Jay very well at the time and couldn't have vouched for his innocence if I had wanted to.

You are not responsible for "poisoning others against Jay", people are responsible for their own thoughts and attitudes, and these folks are smart. The majority of their opinions of Jay (whatever they may be) I'm sure have been formed by their own perception of his actions, not because of anything you might have said or done.

Let me be clear in saying this: Brendan does not hold a grudge or any ill will towards Jay. I don't hold a grudge against him. But you also have to remember that Jay wasn't innocent in all of his dealings, and if we're all honest, we've all slipped up in our behaviour somewhere along the line. No one person can take the blame, but each person can take responsibility for their own actions.

Not trying to rile anyone, just throwing it out there. (<-- see? Smilie. I is happy. )

*laughs at the last bit* I love you, Twinnie.

I feel the same way about Jay, although for a while I've believed him to be legally guilty of what he was charged with, even if all the family's accusations were not true - didn't he admit to some form of wrongdoing in open court? I still love him though, because I know he's changed. He's just dealing with the effects of past sin.

Even if he was innocent though, it's still entirely inappropriate, legally as a policy, and ethically to avoid the appearance of evil, for him to retain any position here at Holy Worlds. If I was wrongly accused of similar things, I would immediately remove myself from all the connections I have to the forum I admin, or any other ministry or organization I had ties with.

Yes. This.

I feel like I have to be very careful in this discussion. I don't want to "take sides." I am friends with Jay, I am friends with Kaitlyn. But I think there are a couple of things that should be brought up. What went on between them is just that, between them. I understand and approve Airianna's reasons for explaining her point of view. As a very active and essential member of the community I don't think she would have felt right in leaving with anything less than an explanation. I don't think any of us would have been happy with anything less either! That being said, there is really no possibility of a rebuttal. Jay has no avenue for clearing his name or clarifying his intentions. I am glad that the issues have been brought to light. But I don't see that rehashing everything is really going to do any good. Her decision to leave has been made and implemented to a large degree.

I would also like to point out that regardless of whether or not he lied, disillusionment with Jay is no reason to leave Holy Worlds. Jay is no longer a part of Holy Worlds at this time. We have a new admin, new leadership structure, and most of the same friends here on the site. I'm not addressing Airi here, but other members. If the leadership of HW has done something that has hurt you personally I hope that you will follow the Biblical instructions for dealing with that situation. You can find those in Matthew chapter 18. They go like this.

Dude does ya wrong? Go talk to him. Just you and him. If he listens to ya, YAY! you're friends again. If he wants to be stubborn, go again, but this time take a couple friends along! That way you have witnesses to the problem. If he still refuses to listen to reason take it before the church. (or in this case I'd say to the leadership/admin/members of the site considering that the church has no jurisdiction over a website.) If the guy won't even be swayed by the group then you reclassify him. You treat him like an unbeliever. That doesn't mean you hate him. It means you treat him with love and dignity, but you don't admit him to your inner circle. Frankly, if we are all discussing these wrongs with the group without first taking them privately to the person who hurt us, and trying again with witnesses we're not following God's protocol for handling disagreements.

As for whether or not Jay is/was/will be guilty of wrongdoing of any sort, what bearing does this have on our affairs now? He is no longer the admin, no longer able to even access the site. It's not really an issue. Besides that unless we have all the facts none of us really has much business declaring anyone guilty of anything. None of us have all the facts. I'd like to see all the talk about Jay just kind of dry up. Not because "he's my friend and he can do no wrong," but because it changes nothing and doesn't really pertain to Holy Worlds any longer. I'm having trouble seeing what it is supposed to accomplish. Though if I'm missing something, I am open to having things pointed out to me.

First of all, from a legal perspective, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with Jay's relationship to the forum. He discussed that with his legal counsel and explained it to the Council.

As a matter of Holy Worlds policy, I assure you that if people were excluded from leading the website due to situations like Jay's, then a number of members, myself included, would certainly not allowed to hold rank at all, because of things we have done, or problems we have had.

As for supposed ethics, there's really nothing I can say. If that is your conviction on the subject you may have it, however, I should caution you that every leader in your life does something that others would consider to have an appearance of evil.

I agree with Mama Raven that bringing this issues up in public won't do any good. But now that the accusations have been made, I think they should be settled.

Jay is being accused unethical and immoral misconduct, of deception and deceitfulness, etc. Very well then: present your specific and clearly explained reasons for each accusation and allow the other members to decide for themselves. Most of them don't even know what's going on yet.

How do things stand as far as Jay's foreseeable future involvement in Holy Worlds? In light of some of the discussions that are being had, I'd appreciate knowing if he is going to return to a position of leadership, or if he will stay off the forums after his release. Does he retain any hold, legally or otherwise, over the forum? This has an impact of whether or not I can recommend young writers to this site.

My dear Jordan, you are not at all responsible for any of my actions. I have given my reasons for leaving in my goodbye thread, and I do not plan on rehashing them here, but I did want to make clear that you have no responsibility for any issues between Jay and I. If you remember, I disagreed with your stance and was on "Jay's" side, if that is what we want to call it, though I wasn't on his side either, I just didn't agree with the way you viewed the situation.

Please do not feel you were at all responsible.

I just want to note here, for the record, that Jay has completely stepped down. I am admin, Jay is not a Leader here anymore, and the decisions made by me will be my own, with the advice and council of the ML's. Jay has stepped down, I just want to make that clear as I feel as though there is some confusion.



I will answer this as soon as I can, Evening. I just want to be sure of my facts before I reply to you.

*Smiles* Neil, you are in no way to blame for this. Maybe in some way or other have made a mistake, or said things they shouldn't have during all this. It's not your fault. I want to thank you for your maturity through all of this. *Smiles* Even if you did act wrongly at first, you sought to right things with Jay and you put things right which is all that matters in the here and now.


Thank you, Mama Raven, for your post. That scripture has been on my mind a lot lately.

I am just here to vocally support Stephanie and her promotion to Admin.

As many of you know, I don't engage in the political debate; I tend to just go by the rules and let everyone else argue out their opinions until a ruling is reached. I do want to say however that the opinions coming to light, even though they may be negative and argumentative, have a right to be heard. And I say this because many people already have knowledge or suspicions of what has been going on behind the scenes and for loyalty sakes, no one wanted to publically shed light on any of them. The people who are leaving have the right to say why. The people who are not leaving. . . thank you for sticking around. Communities change and any change in communities comes with issues. It just does. Statements can be made and everyone can decide for themselves where they stand. What comes after that is healing. Just hang in there.

Thankyou, Hannah.

Neil - a legal right isn't always legally wise. There's no law against a lot of things that could look very very bad in a court of law if you were accused of something. For this reason, I mirror Evening's questions, and I await Elanor's clarification. For those of us concerned about HW, it's not so simple, because we feel Jay does indeed have a hold on the forum - read his intro to this thread for example.

That being said, I am *so* excited for Lady E's adminship and look forward to her incredibly wise leadership. I plan on sticking it out because she's gonna be awesome.

Hehe that's funny! Well, I have considered changing it to my pen name, when I decide what it is. *Chuckles*

I like Lady Elanor as a name - it gives you a regal sort of air.

*Chuckles* It does! Well, I am rather attached to it.

Just a note for those of you who were waiting for an answer to Evening's question.

Welcome, Lady Elanor. I think you are and will be a wonderful admin. Just keep your eyes on God and stay on your knees.

And... I am sorry you had to deal with all of that. *sighs* I think you handled yourself admirably.

*Smiles* I am very grateful for your kind words and encouragement, Carissa. Thank you.