Need some help with female reactions and growth options.

I'm a married guy and still don't understand "wimmin". That's why I seldom write from their POV; I don't want to write something a woman would find poorly done. However, there's now a need so I'm asking for help.

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The genre in question is Sci-Fi. Far future, women hold as much position as men, human centric. Military, space flight, and "The Creator" is acknowledged as a faith. Psionics exist, nobles are real, and life gets dramatic.

The woman in question is Irene Pace. Tall, muscular, GED her boyfriend helped her get. She's 21, a mercenary Marine in Prince Allesandro's Jump Light (PAJL), and five months pregnant. Her ex-fiance is Harvey, out of the picture. Too fond of other ladies. Her boyfriend, Marco, is another Marine. They have known each other for two years, dated off and on for one, and in a moment of unwise choices conceived a child on a beach one night. Before Irene knew she was pregnant, Marco was shipped out on a covert mission.

Irene's friends in the unit have helped her out, and the unit values her. She has a place with them if she wants. They received a report that Marco's mission had failed and that he was dead. At that point Irene hit rock bottom and her friends brought her back.

I've portrayed Irene with doubts about her beauty, doubts about whether or not Marco really loved her, and financial struggles as her dad needs expensive medication.

Then things start to change. The receive a second report that not only did Marco survive, but the purely military mission he was sent on, a "destroy the big weapon before the Navy ships roll in" was scrapped. Instead of preparing the way for the Navy to invade Marco has instigated a civil war to overthrow the despotic ruler the Navy wants to invade.

Of course, that message is brought to Irene and PAJL by a beautiful young woman who obviously likes Marco. Irene and her friends see the original video.

The Navy is geared for war, though and they move to the planet expecting a hard battle. The war is already over, though. Irene is detailed to work some mercenary contracts and hasn't met Marco again, although she believes he's still alive.

She and the officer go into a well hidden village called Nowhere, and are supposed to talk to the village leader. It turns out to be Marco. He has become a Noble, a Psion, a Leader, and is revered by many on the planet he helped save.

And yes, he loves her. He loves their as yet unborn child as well. He loves the 8 and 12 year old orphan boys he adopted. He also loves the young girl in the message, who he adopted. She's also a war hero and hasn't graduated high school yet. He wants to marry Irene if she wants him.

Irene finally meets the girl, Tala, in person. Tala has also adopted a 5 year old daughter even though she is only 17. Irene has harbored some jealousy towards Tala. Marco is a charmer, it's been months since they saw each other, and Irene has made some mistakes in the relationship as well.

Tala takes Irene to a basement room in an old garage and shows her two drawings. One is of Tala, done by her daughter, before they met. Tala's daughter sees the future and painted the Hero Tala coming to rescue her. Then Tala shows Irene a drawing of her, Irene, and Irene's daughter playing. There had been some doubt about the father of Irene's child (remember Harvey?) but Tala points out that the child has Marco's eyes. Irene knows Marco has seen this picture.

Tala admits that she would have become Marco's consort had he asked. However, he adopted her instead. They never did anything.

Then Irene faces another "death". Tala nervously offers Irene a wedding gift, and puts her hand on Irene's throat. Tala is a Psion too, and she has seen many of Marco's memories. She shows Irene several of Marco's memories about Irene herself. Showing that he has secretly loved her for the entire two years, he arranged for them to get an assignment together so he could be with her. He centers his thoughts on her and when she exposed her flaws all he saw was her beauty. She sees him pray for strength to be pure and she knows he has remained so.

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At this point the old Irene, with doubts about her beauty and Marco's love, has seen the truth. How does she feel? What does she do? How does knowing your man totally loves and is devoted to you empower you?

What else would make sense?

So you're wanting to know how she would react at the end? Finding out that he loves her for reals? Or are you wanting feedback on something else?

I have two thoughts and they're probably totally missing the point but they are what popped in my mind so here goes:

One - you know how Jesus performed miracles and yet so many people would not believe? If someone doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them, right? So my first thought is Irene was probably already well on her way to believing in his love and Tala's gift was just the final drop to tip things.

My other thought is: if a person finds self-worth from someone's love it can go one of two ways. Either they place all their self-worth in that one person - which is unhealthy and a mistake since we're all fallible, finite humans - or the one person's love serves as an example of God's love and enables them to see their self-worth independent of that person. The love can be the impetus to that person seeing themselves as valued before God, regardless of their peers.

In the drafts so far Irene has been fairly two dimensional and facing fairly emotional events. However, I didn't know a lot about her. She has self-worth but would like to be "that one special person" to someone. Through Tala's gift she sees Marco viewing her as his beloved.

In the end Irene becomes a "Proverbs 31 Woman" but I want to show the personality that takes her there. When Marco praises her at the city gates, what does he talk about? When she invests from her earnings, what was her revenue stream? How has having a loving husband provided for her emotional and spiritual growth?

Hope that makes sense.

Another Question for the Ladies

Would you want to read a "romance" between a father and daughter? Nothing inappropriate, but a "coming of age" story where a girl transforms into a young lady and realizes the man who loves her the most is the one she most discounted. The father knows he struggles to understand the woman his daughter is becoming and to be a strong and loving model of the man she will one day seek.

Of course, if she waits a few more decades to do any seeking he'd certainly appreciate it!

YES! I would! And have. A friend of mine did a Beauty and the Beast retelling where the "beast" was the father and Beauty was the daughter.

Yes and no. Yes in that, more portrayal of healthy parental relationships is absolutely, deeply needed in fiction. So, I'm not against it. But I've also found that a lot of those stories have unhealthy perspectives on true romantic relationships--discounting healthy relationships with "boys," discouraging marriage and healthy dating/courting, villainizing boys, and giving girls unrealistic expectations of boys. I am not saying you would do that intentionally, or that all stories like it do that, but that many of them do, so it's something to be careful of.

And then an author elevates one element (such as parental relationships) at the expense of another element that is actually healthy and necessary, it can really ruin the story and send the wrong message. I've read a lot of stories that had good intentions but went extremist with the message, and really ruined the story--and also did a lot of moral damage.

Another thing to be careful of in such a story is to make sure it is very empathetic to the girl and the problems she struggles with as a young woman. A lot of times these stories are written by adults with the not-so-veiled motive of convincing young people to love their parents more, and readers can see right through a motive like that.

Sorry for the random rant--I have some bad memories of the flat, unhelpful, propaganda books I read as a kid.

The movie, The Croods, comes to mind. The entire family finds a renewed appreciation for the father by the end of the movie. But it was subtly woven under the other themes of the movie and more powerful because of it.

Rants are welcome.

So, did you feel Book 1 was problematic in that regard? it had it's own problems, but I tried to make the message part of the story. The rewrite will likely continue the idea but do a better job in the word-craft department.

I think I saw the teaser for that but never found the movie. Will put it on the agenda, thanks!

Nope, different movie. The other one was not animated, and the dad was older. Or I'm just older and more confused...

The Croods is a great movie. Very teenage coming of age without being the usual tripe.

It's been awhile since I saw THE CROODS, but I remember really liking it.



Yes, sadly. The main issue with the way it was portrayed in the rough draft was that Al was constantly put down; she was always in the wrong and never got a break. This was problematic if you were writing to people's Al's age and wanted them to emphasize with her character. It gets frustrating for the reader when the MC's sole purpose appears to be to make mistakes so the parents (and author) can be proved right. Also, there were a couple places where the father was in the wrong, but that was never rectified, nor were Al's legitimate concerns addressed.

The thing that authors have to remember is that they need to see things from their intended audience's perspective, whether that be kids or young ladies. That audience has certain things that are important to them, and certain things that they dislike, or things that they want, etc. Even if they're wrong, they need to discover that they're wrong in an organic way, or they'll just end up hating the author.

I'm saying that as a general rule--not something against your books specifically, so don't take it personally! This is a big issue that repeats itself frequently in Christian fiction. The author sets out with the intent of delivering a sermon with their book, instead of writing a good story, and the reader can see right through the facade. (And the plot usually suffers as a result.)

But back to the original question, that's another caveat I have: A) Don't make the parents perfect (it just makes them flat--they are human) and B) When the parents do make a mistake, they need to own up to it. Frequently in fiction (and, sadly, in real life, especially in certain denominations), parents and authority can "do no wrong." This is a very, very dangerous theology and can lead to abusive relationships, depression, and suicide. I know that sounds overly serious, but I have seen it happen multiple times in real life, and it's disgusting.

Sorry I made that so dark, guys. XD It's a very personal topic for me, and I have seen several books get ruined this way.

Hey, Kiddo, don't worry. I'm not taking any of this personally, except to pay deeper attention.

I've read and learned a good bit since last July when I wrote Book 1. When I started, I know Al would be redeemed but wanted to show her as needing to be redeemed. That she herself would see the need for redemption and be able to turn to her father knowing he would love her.

But yeah, Al doesn't show a lot of positive aspects through the first large portion of the book. She actually does have several redeeming qualities; mechanical aptitude, willing to help around the house, taking care of her friends like inviting Wilbur over for supper knowing his family is poor.

Dad admits to her that he makes mistakes, and Jen and Karista talk about his struggles as a dad.

Hopefully the second draft will be better.

Aye, if it goes in the direction of Book 2, it will definitely be better. Book 2 was excellent and had a good balance on a lot of the above elements that we've been discussing.

Sometimes I wonder what the heck I'm doing. I wrote a sports based story in book 1 and I don't do most organized sports. I'm writing about young girls and I've not been young for a long time and don't ever remember being a girl.

Yet I know that young ladies of the world need the message that there is positive in the world, that just because you're different doesn't mean you're bad, and that there are good role-models available.

I really want to show adults as not stupid. Too many MG books seem to do that with parents, etc. No perfect, mind you, but not stupid.

Part of the series arc is Al growing to be like her dad. Not that he forces it, but in Book 1 she shows thankfulness. In Book 2 she deals with life and death. In "05 and 123" she's now trying to be "normal"; what she sought to escape in Book 1. Yet soon she will risk her life for someone and have to come to terms with being far from normal.

Yet she also has to grow in her own way as well, and I'm interested in seeing what that's like.

"I don't remember ever being a girl."

Don't let the fact that you aren't a girl and aren't young (in number only!) bog you down. A lot of authors write from the POV of characters that are completely different than themselves, or about subjects they are not intimately familiar with. Research and some solid beta-readers can pick up the slack where personal experience falls short.

They key, I've found, is the story. Story should always come first. If you are telling a story you're passionate about, then everything else will fall into line with a bit of work. If you're telling a story you're not passionate about--or telling a story for the wrong reasons--then no amount of editing and skill can redeem you.

That's the key a lot of authors miss when they set out with the intent of delivering a message (a moral) instead of a story. They are putting the message first; their sole goal in writing is to "convert" or convince people of their POV. They aren't there to tell a story; they're there to preach. As such, the story suffers. So if your intent is to convince your readers that "You should love your dad more!"--they're going to pick up on that, and they're going to resent that. But if your intent is to write a really good story, and your theme happens to be "Hey, dads are cool!"--then they'll enjoy the story, and along the way, come to the same conclusion as your MC--"Huh, my dad really is cool."

Another way to look at it--consider, why DON'T young ladies love their dad? What's coming in between them? What's going on in the young lady's life that might cause her to withdraw? Is it something she heard? Something that happened when she was younger? Something her dad did? Or is it not her dad at all--is there something else she's fighting with, and it's just manifesting in her relationship with her dad? Play the Devil's advocate--get in her shoes and understand why she WOULDN'T love her dad--and then find a way to address her concerns organically.

This is such an interesting discussion. I know exactly what you mean, Lt. General Hansen, & I also see completely where Domici is coming from. (FYI, if you're interested in stories with positive adult portrayals - imperfect but not afraid to own up to it - I recommend the Tethered World series by Heather L.L. Fitzgerald.)

My own WIP is a bit of a coming-of-age adventure with impulsiveness being my MC's weakness and she eventually realizes she has to change the self-centered aspect of herself. But one thing I've noticed is my themes tend to be organic - I don't set out to write a story that gets a point across, I write a story and a theme gradually emerges all on it's own. Then I go back and strengthen it.

The humor in Book 1 is that Al worked so hard to be special; she wanted to compete in the Sangrean games and felt that would make her "someone special". Not to lord it over people, just to be special. She finds out she already is special and has to run to keep up. In the "05 and 123" story she's trying to not be special.

Book 1 started as the idea of a daughter having a loving dad and seeing her own value.

We're moving to an active "missional" mindset, thus the stories speak from a position of faith but don't hammer it. Dad isn't perfect but he's not bad, either. Even when the kids think he's a Domici hitman.

'Dad' does have a tendency to have 'Persian Flaws' ... too protective, too understanding, too humble, etc.

Marco needs to go on a bender and really sin once so he has something to confess!

Personally, I often observe that people's greatest strength is also their weakness. To avoid becoming personal, let's pick on the Apostle Peter. Peter was the apostle with the personal courage and commitment to actually step out of a boat and walk on the water, and to shout out "To whom could we go, you alone have the words of life" and who charged a squad of soldiers with a sword prepared to make good on his promise to die with his Savior rather than leave him. Yet Peter was also the one who placed his foot in his mouth by rejecting the prophecy from Christ and had to hear "Get behind me Satan", and he was broken and confused and cursed Christ and was chased off by a little girl that recognized him. Strong and decisive, made him impulsive and easily blown off course. His strength was his weakness, and his weakness was his strength.

If you want to really give Marco/Dad a flaw, then what is his strength?


"Excessive sorrow laughs. Excessive joy weeps." - William Blake

You mean besides being unmarried and having a child on the way? And, um, picking up young women (literlaly) and kissing them and hoping their sniper fathers don't shoot him?

That would be a scene; right as Al starts to consider a chaste date with Cadet Captain One she finds out how flirty her father was.

On a slightly more serious note I've tried to keep Marco "holy" in the game. To show that is possible to be a person of faith and still be an action figure hero. I've tried to show his struggles as well, and his doubts and fears. Now, of course, with all those old women around he can't do much of anything and get away with it.

I mostly meant in Book 1. Marco/Dad had his act together by then.

As the Father of an almost 12 year old, I can strike fear into a County Commission room full of grown men easier than figuring out the right thing to say to one little girl (sometimes). Where the heck is the manual for this thing?

Ha! I thought you were being subtle and pointing out that Cranston is back in town.

Yeah, the whole husband/dad lack of a manual thing is a serious issue.

Men don't read instructions, so God let it go out of print.

While finishing up volume 23,714 of "How to Understand Women" God pointed out that even women don't understand women and that a man's time is better spent on important things like shooting guns and coding.

Q. Why did God make Adam before Eve?
A. Because if He made Eve first, He would have had to listen to all of the advice on how to make Adam.

I do coffee at church, and I wrote up a sign that says "And on the 8th day God created COFFEE." When people ask me about it, I say: "Well, it went like this. God created Adam first, right? Then He created Eve. The next day He woke up and realized He'd better create coffee, or Adam wouldn't be able to handle Eve."

Not sure God made enough coffee...

My wife says Adam was whining about wanting apple pie and that's why Eve, the loving and submissive wife, picked the forbidden fruit.

I've not pointed out my lack of experiece with a submissive wife.

A man got paid on Friday and decided to go out and spend all of his pay partying with his friends. Sunday he finally got home and had an argument with his wife about his irresponsible behavior.

"How would you like it if you didn't see me for a few days?" the wife asked.

"That would be a nice change." the man replied.

Monday, he woke up and didn't see his wife.

Tuesday, he woke up and didn't see his wife.

Wednesday, he woke up and the swelling had gone down enough that he could peek though a crack in his eyelids and he saw his wife.