Holy Worlds Christian Forum :: View topic

@Jeremiah - That was such a blessing to me, dear little brother. Thank you. Thank you so much for supporting me, and caring for me. I'll be forever grateful to Jay and to HW for all the good friends I've found here, including you. I love you, too.

*hugs tightly*

Also, Elanor is not holding HW under Jay as a steward. HW is hers for keeps. Period. There is no guarantee at all that Jay is going to take over once he comes back. That's why he gave HW over completely to a new Admin.

And how on earth would you know if Jay has lied to anyone or not, or any other such thing? Have you complete access to every email that he sends and receives?

@Leandra - God bless you as well. You seem like an awesome person... we should chat sometime.

You could hijack your brother's account again.

Author:	J. Grace Pennington [ September 3rd, 2013, 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Goodbye
I love you all very much. I’ve been needing to write this post for weeks, and all I can think as I sit down to write it is that: I love you all very much. Some have suggested that those of us who are leaving are doing so because we are angry, because we are upset, that we are leaving in a huff and slamming the door behind us. My dear, dear friends… nothing could be further from the truth. I am not angry right now. I am sorrowful. In fact, my heart has long been broken at the thought of leaving this community. Because it is not a hasty decision. This is something I decided prayerfully and with many tears months ago, and as the weeks pass I’ve become more and more convinced that I am doing the right thing, as much as I wish I didn’t have to. Some people have said that HolyWorlds is nothing more than a forum, just a structure, just code. That it’s not really important. But you know what? It is important to me. It means a lot more to me than I could ever explain. It was here that I met almost all my friends. It was here that I gained the courage to actually move forward and publish some of the novels I’d had laying around unedited. Here I grew, I started taking steps to overcome my depression and other major issues, I learned more about God and His role in my life. Perhaps most important of all, it was HolyWorlds that taught me to be loved. I’ve always been someone who didn’t fit in, who felt out of place and felt like I was never good enough. HolyWorlds was different. Here I fit in, here I feel like part of a family, and here, I learned that I am always good enough, and that I am always loved. And that barely scratches the surface of how God has used this community in my life. I thought I was going to be here forever. Because I love you all so much. Originally, I had planned to leave quietly. I expected to be standing completely alone, and I didn’t have any desire to cause division or strife. But as more things happened, and more people came to stand beside me, I realized that you all deserve an explanation. So many people have come to me asking why, asking what is going on. You all deserve to know. The last thing I want to do is to cause trouble, or strife, so please read this knowing that I am not angry, and that I am seeking only to explain, not to stir up trouble. First I want to clear one thing up. Some people have been saying that the reason I am leaving is because I feel HolyWorlds should be treated like a church and therefore should not have a female leader. This is a falsehood mixed with the truth, and I want to make sure that my position is very clear. I never said that HolyWorlds was a church, nor that it should be treated as one. HolyWorlds is a Christian online writing community. With that in mind, the issue of a female admin is not the only or the biggest issue here, but for me, personally, it is one contributing factor. I believe that the Bible teaches that we must hold ourselves to its principles no matter what the situation. Going against God’s design for ourselves or our communities hinders our progress and robs us of the blessings He has for us. Thus, because I believe that the Bible teaches that a woman leader for a community goes against God’s design, I do not believe having a female admin is an acceptable choice, regardless of how wonderful the individual is. A disclaimer--I’m not saying that I believe women can never be leaders in any capacity. That is not true at all. I believe women can and should be leaders under the headship of a man. Thus having women such as Kaitlyn, Aubrey, and Elanor on the Council and as Marcher Lords has never been an issue for me, because they were subservient to Jay’s vision, and he had the final authority over the site. Similar to how a mother is a leader in her home, under the headship of the father. So it’s only the issue of a woman being the overall leader that I have an issue with. I know many of you will disagree with me on this, and I am not writing these things to try to convince you of my position or to change your convictions in any way. All I am doing is seeking to explain what the Lord has impressed on me through His word and prayer. I know that if I hold to that, He will be pleased with my stand. Again, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am merely seeking to state my position as clearly as possible so that there will be no misunderstanding or misrepresentation. Anyone who wishes to ask me more about my reasons for this position is welcome to email me about it, but for now, I just want to make my stance clear so that there is no question and so that no one else is speaking for me. The other issues weigh on my heart much more heavily. There has been so much inappropriate behavior on the part of the leadership throughout this process. When a candidate that many people believed was more fitted to the role of admin was suggested to Jay, he refused to even consider the idea. When people came to him with advice and counsel, he ignored almost all the concerns brought to him. He flat-out lied, in public to you all, and in private. He has repeatedly tried to reduce those of us who are leaving to mere numbers, he has trampled on his friendships, betrayed trust, and has tried to make our actions seem petty, hasty, and unloving. I don’t say any of this in anger. In fact, I hate saying it. I love Jay as a brother in Christ, but his behavior in leading this forum has been completely inappropriate and unjust, and it would be wrong for me to hide that. The fact is, Jay is not in a place to understand what the forums’ needs are right now, and the way things stand, he is accountable to no one but himself, which is a dangerous position for any leader. Harder still for me to address Elanor in this post. I love Elanor. I’ve always called her the golden flower of HolyWorlds. I could not agree more with those who have praised her character, her kindness, her compassion, and her many other good qualities. She is a wonderful and beautiful asset to this community, and I think she should have been a council member long ago. I believe that Elanor will do her very best in her new role, but that does not change the fact that I also believe that the role is not fitted to her. Her conduct during all of this has been gentle and kind, but through it all she has been accountable to no one but Jay, and has counseled with him on many of the changes for HolyWorlds. Jay has led others in manipulation before, and therefore I have concerns about how he has manipulated Elanor’s position here. I have no doubt in my heart that she has the very best of intentions, but the way things are set up make me tremble for the future of this community. I love her dearly, but I am concerned not only for all of you, but for herself in this situation. I do not say these things with any desire to attack her character, this is merely a practical, objective analysis of what a leader needs to be, Biblically and pragmatically, and while she is a dedicated member who has served us all so well, I cannot believe this is the place for her. I really want to stress that this is nothing against her. The same would be true of myself, and of many wonderful members we have here on HolyWorlds. Just because someone is wonderful does not make them the right leader. To those who claim I’m leaving because my choice for admin was not chosen--this is not the case. It’s true that I had someone in mind who I believed and still do believe to be the ideal person for the role, but it’s also true that if any biblically qualified candidate had been chosen and instilled in a biblical process, I would not have complained. Me getting my way is not and never has been the issue. I want what is best for the forum, and sometimes I don’t know what that is. Sometimes I’m wrong. But there are certain biblical principles that must be followed, and I am not alone in claiming that they have not been followed in this process. This is so hard to write. I’ve been putting it off for weeks, because it just breaks my heart to say these things. It would be so much easier to just stay here with you all. But I know I cannot do that in good conscience. I cannot support a leader who I believe is biblically unqualified, and I cannot support a leadership system built on lies and betrayal. As hard as this post was to begin, it’s even harder to end. I don’t want this to affect any of my friendships with you all. I’ll still be on Skype, on email, on G+, and on Twitter. You can talk to me whenever you like, and ask me anything. I’ll always be here for whoever needs me. But the difference is, I won’t be posting here anymore. I won’t answer PMs. I won’t be able to talk about my writing and publishing here as that journey continues. Perhaps saddest of all to me, I will not be able to recommend this forum to anyone. Any young Christian writers asking my advice about joining this forum will have to be told that I cannot recommend such a course. And this is incredibly sad to me. I used to recommend this place to everyone, and I never thought that would end. What more is there to say? I will continue to pray for this community. I am not angry at anyone. I am only very sad. But I need to get this over with and move on. All of this has been so stressful and heartbreaking the past few months, and to be honest, as terribly sad as I am, I am ready to move on from that. I hate saying that, but it’s true. I wish you all the best. And I suppose the best way to end this post is the way I began it: I love you all very much. Goodbye. ~ J. Grace Pennington

Author:	Roager the Ogre [ September 3rd, 2013, 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Goodbye, Grace. You are dearly loved and a blessing to all who have been touched by your kindness. God bless you.

Author:	Jakorosin Darksbane [ September 3rd, 2013, 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I am very sad to see you go, Grace. I have only just gotten to know you, but I appreciate you very much: your intelligence, thoughtfulness and kindness have lent a lot to this forum and the Skype room. (not to mention you're a fantastic writer ) May God bless you in your endeavors as you move on.

Author:	Aris Hunter [ September 3rd, 2013, 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Bye-bye Grace. I'm sorry I wasn't able to get to know you better, but I hope that you prosper in whatever other paths you take.

Author:	RunningWolf [ September 3rd, 2013, 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
These things are really disturbing...realizes yet again just how much he needs to be praying for people and HW So little of our interaction has really been on HW...but this is where I met you (and I will never stop trying to describe how much your friendship is to me), and... Holy Worlds will be very different without you. You and Airi held much of the essence of HW for me, and seeing you two go doesn't bode well for HW. Sad as I am to see you go, big sister...I am proud of you for following God's leading, and for doing so with such grace, gentleness, and love. And I am so grateful for what you've done here to make HW HW--in the good sense of. God be with you, big sister. I love you. hugs

Holy Worlds Christian Forum https://archive.holyworlds.org/

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Author:	Airianna Valenshia [ September 3rd, 2013, 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
hugs Gracie and echoes Jeremiah who is so eloquent

Author:	Suiauthon Mimetes [ September 3rd, 2013, 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
He has said it well indeed.

Author:	Arien [ September 3rd, 2013, 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
isn't sure what to say You will be missed. Neither emotes nor words can really convey what I'm thinking/feeling here... but I am sad to see you leave, and will miss having one more place to talk to you at. Goodbye. Fortunately, I can talk to you elsewhere, which kind of deserves the really big smile, but that doesn't really fit the thread. So, yeah. (I'm trying to decide whether to talk to you about some of this stuff or not. I'd like to, but certain parts of it I'm afraid may be likely to touch things that make me irritable. And sometimes that gets the better of me, which I'd really rather avoid...)

Author:	The Wolverminion [ September 3rd, 2013, 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Jenny.

Author:	RedWing the Purple [ September 4th, 2013, 7:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
hugs Grace You'll be missed. HW certainly won't be the same without you, dear. hugs Though most of our interaction has been outside of HW, I'll still miss you here. You've always been so kind and supportive and your excitement over False Gods was more encouraging then you know. God bless you, Grace.

Author:	Elly [ September 4th, 2013, 7:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Bye, Ani. hugs

Author:	J. Grace Pennington [ September 4th, 2013, 9:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
@Ryan - That was a blessing to me. Thank you. @Joel - I'm very sad to go. Believe me, I was sobbing while writing and posting this. Thank you for your encouragement... I have very much enjoyed getting to know you, and I'll still see you around the Skype rooms. @Aris - I wish we had gotten better acquainted as well! I have many fond memories of seeing you around the chat rooms. You'll just have to try emailing me a bit, as we discussed in our PMs. hugs

Author:	Elly [ September 4th, 2013, 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Yes, I'm sure we'll talk again sometime. nods

Author:	Captain Nemo Marlene [ September 4th, 2013, 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
hugs her McCoy buddy I think it is incredibly adult of you to make these decisions, think so hard on them, pray about them, and act upon them. I commend you for following what you feel to be the right course of action. Even though I disagree with you on some points, and agree on others, I respect your decision and hope for the best for you. You will be missed. Thank you for the time you spent pouring into these forums. I am glad I've gotten to talk with you a bit more recently and have gotten to know you better. I hope to continue discussions with you in the near future. hugs again I hope there will be a day when you feel that you are able to rejoin the forums. Until that day... well... Live long and prosper. Sorry. Couldn't think of a better way to end it. hugs one more time

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Author:	Ophelia MirZA Mimetes [ September 4th, 2013, 10:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I... really don't know what to say here. Hugs tightly I'll miss having you on HW, Grace-Ani, but I respect your decision to do this. I really do. I remember some of our first conversations in chat those now years ago - you've impacted my life in so many ways since then, and I believe you'll continue to in other places in the future. You've cheered me up when I've been sad, encouraged me when I've been down, cried with me when I've been broken, reminded me of God's love when I've felt far, listened when I needed someone to talk to, advised me when I didn't know what to do, loved me when I felt low and not worth anyone's time... You're the best big sister and friend I could've ever asked for. I trust you in this and I'm praying for you. ~ZA

Author:	RunningWolf [ September 4th, 2013, 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
J. Grace Pennington wrote: @Jeremiah - That was such a blessing to me, dear little brother. Thank you. Thank you so much for supporting me, and caring for me. I'll be forever grateful to Jay and to HW for all the good friends I've found here, including you. I love you, too. hugs tightly is glad it was a blessing smiles It's my pleasure to, big sister. hugs tightly back also will always be grateful for that

Author:	Amy [ September 4th, 2013, 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I love you, Grace. will be back to say more when she comes up with words...

Author:	J. Grace Pennington [ September 10th, 2013, 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
@Captain - hugs her McCoy buddy back Thank you, Captain dear. Thank you for encouraging me despite your disagreement. I've so enjoyed our recent talks, and hope we can talk more. hugs back I too hope that there will be a day I come back. I very, very much hope so. Your ending was perfect, dear. Thank you. @Za - hugs tightly back I love you, little sis, and I've loved every moment of it. I'm always here for you.

Author:	AzlynRose [ September 10th, 2013, 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Hugs Gracie tight I'm very sorry to see you leave, but I thank you for explaining your reasons. We're going to miss you. Thank you for always being so nice to me. You were one of the first people I met because we joined about the same time. And though I never officially adopted you as a big sister, you have always felt like one. So if you don't mind, I'll adopt you now. Keep being the beautiful young woman God wants you to be and writing wonderful books. Gives enough brownies to last you a very long time And these are special brownies that won't go stale or mouldy no matter how long you leave them.

Author:	Leandra Falconwing [ September 11th, 2013, 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Goodbye, and God bless you! I wish we'd had more opportunities to talk; I've always thought you were awesome but we never seemed to actually interact much.

Author:	Lady Carliss [ September 12th, 2013, 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
May God bless you, Grace! Thank you so much for explaining your reasons so eloquently. They are indeed thought provoking. Huggles to my sister in Christ.

Author:	Arias Mimetes [ September 12th, 2013, 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I don't know you very well, Grace, but I'm sad to see you go all the same. Thank you for being courageous enough to explain why you're leaving, even though many may not agree with you. I respect you very much for that, and I wish you well on your future God bless.

Author:	Lady Elanor [ September 13th, 2013, 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I'm going to miss you, Grace. You know I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them all. Follow where God leads you, lovely. Hugs tight

Author:	Calenmiriel [ September 15th, 2013, 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
I am sorry to see you have to leave this forum. Your joyful spirit will be missed.

Author:	Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes [ September 16th, 2013, 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Firstly I want to say that these are extremely serious accusations made against Jay, by someone we trust. It would be wrong to pass over them. J. Grace Pennington, having made these accusations, you are obliged to explain them fully, and as openly as you have made the accusations. Especially since you say that Jay has lied publicly to us, rather than only privately. I do not believe Jay has lied to anyone. I do not believe that he has manipulated anyone in any way. I do not believe he has ignored or reduced anyone to mere numbers. I do not believe he has betrayed anyone's friendship or trust. As a follower of God, unless these accusations are fully proven to me, I should never allow them to influence what I believe towards a brother in Christ. Am I angered at these accusations? Not until they are explained, and shown to be wrongly made, or rightly made. As to the question of a female admin: you are right in that a woman should not rule, or usurp authority, whether it is in a church, or a family, a government, or an organization. You are also right that it is a question of final authority, and that leadership under a male with final authority is a different case: that is a very good point, and I am glad you pointed that out. One reason I still supported the decision of Elanor as administrator is the nature of the authority, in that she can tell no one to do anything. She cannot tell anyone to join the forum, take a certain role, do a certain project, or post a certain thing. She only has the authority to forbid them from doing something, from joining the forum, taking a role, joining a project, or posting something. So pretty much everything we do for her is by volunteering, rather than under orders. Another reason is that, while she has full authority at present, it is not final in the sense of time. She is not under Jay's authority at present, but she is under his authority in that she is holding it for him as steward, to fully return the final authority to him once God gives him access to the internet again.

Author:	BushMaid [ September 16th, 2013, 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
My dear Patrick, Gracie is not obliged whatsoever to explain her reasons for leaving, and you are wrong to demand them of her, sir. And how on earth would you know if Jay has lied to anyone or not, or any other such thing? Have you complete access to every email that he sends and receives? No, you do not. So although I can understand how you feel as Jay's brother, you cannot possibly make that statement in full confidence of its truth. If you truly felt this was something that needed to be said, you should have done so in a private email to Grace. Not openly calling her out here. Also, Elanor is not holding HW under Jay as a steward. HW is hers for keeps. Period. There is no guarantee at all that Jay is going to take over once he comes back. That's why he gave HW over completely to a new Admin.

Author:	Lady Elanor [ September 16th, 2013, 5:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
BushMaid wrote: Also, Elanor is not holding HW under Jay as a steward. HW is hers for keeps. Period. There is no guarantee at all that Jay is going to take over once he comes back. That's why he gave HW over completely to a new Admin. Nods Jay told me that himself, I just don't want to get things confused over this issue again. He has said that he wouldn't dream of walking out and thinking he could just take over again, especially if no one wanted him to. BushMaid wrote: And how on earth would you know if Jay has lied to anyone or not, or any other such thing? Have you complete access to every email that he sends and receives? This is exactly the case, which basically means that none of us should just go off what people say; we should go to Jay ourselves and tell him what people are accusing him of, and let him explain. There are always two sides to every story, and none of us have been involved in private correspondence, as Bushy said, which is what makes this so difficult. The bible does say to walk in the light, and I do think if you are willing to make accusations in public about a brother, you should be willing to publicly explain the reasons and give proof. But we cannot force anyone to do so, we just have to go to Jay and seek both sides of the whole issue ourselves. I haven't commented on the issue myself, because without proof and not having been involved myself in the issue, it is impossible to make a well judged decision based on facts. As Christians I don't think it's wrong to ask for proof, it would be wrong just to take the accusations and believe them without proof since, as Bushy said, all of this has been in private and we have not been witnesses to what happened behind closed doors. But we cannot force people to give proof if they are unwilling, we just have to seek the truth for ourselves. As to the matter of a woman leader, I disagree with you about that, Patrick, but I'd be willing to discuss it with you in private if you wish.

Author:	The Wolverminion [ September 16th, 2013, 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
This thing about women "leading" seems to be based on misunderstandings of one or two short passages that are about something else entirely. Women did plenty of leading in the Bible. There were women judges in the era of Judges. Deborah led an army. As queen, Esther had plenty of people under her--of course she was still under the king but she did have leading power of her own. Ruth was the one who seduced Boaz and essentially asked him to marry her. And so on. Here's an interesting quote from an article: "Unfortunately, when it comes to womanhood, many Christians tend to read the rest of scripture through the lens of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 rather than the other way around." Read the article here: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-women-leaders Especially interesting are the sections about Junia and Phoebe.

Author:	J. Grace Pennington [ September 16th, 2013, 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
@Azlyn - Thank you so much, sweetie. I love you, and you've long been like a little sister to me. hugs Email me, okay? @Leandra - God bless you as well. You seem like an awesome person... we should chat sometime. You could hijack your brother's account again. @Lady Carliss - Thank you so much for your gracious response. God bless you. hugs back @Arias - Thank you so much. I so appreciate that... very encouraging to me. Thank you. hugs God bless. @Elanor - You know I love you, no matter what, dear. hugs back @Calen - One of the things I'll miss most is working with you in this room... I've very much enjoyed it. Love you, dear.

Author:	Leandra Falconwing [ September 16th, 2013, 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
J. Grace Pennington wrote: @Leandra - God bless you as well. You seem like an awesome person... we should chat sometime. You could hijack your brother's account again. I should. Unfortunately, we're not in the same house very often anymore, so maybe I'll just PM you my own Skype information.

Author:	Calenmiriel [ September 18th, 2013, 11:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Please take heated arguments or disagreements to PM. There is no need for unnecessary drama in a signing off thread. I pray everyone would respect the other's opinion regardless of whether they agree or not. Thanks!

Author:	Aemi [ December 10th, 2013, 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Goodbye
Oh, dear, not you, too! Yet another reason to surrender to Google+'s clutches... You are special to me, Grace, because you share my home state, and I got to read your book in its (early draft) entirety, and, most of all, I got to MEET YOU! Oh, it was so amazing and special to see you in person for the first time. You were so kind and friendly to me and your hug just smoothed out all the awkwardness so nicely. I intend to get back in touch, and I hope we can meet up again someday. But I am still very sad you are leaving here, especially under such painful circumstances. What has become of the Holy Worlds?