This is a somewhat daunting concept I wanted to discuss, and since it falls under "edifying discussion", I thought it would be best to post it here.

We've all heard about the "smart" animals; whales, crows, chimps, and the like. But the creature that sparked my thoughts is one that most of us consider somewhat basic.

The parrot.

In an article called "What's in a Phrase?" in creation magazine, I read of a parrot named Alex. This parrot was reputedly so smart that, according to his owner, Dr. Pepperberg, the bird could correctly identify 100 objects, do simple addition, and identify seven colors. "If I ask Alex...how many keys; he'll tell me "two". If I ask him what color, he'll say "green", and if I ask him what shape, he'll say "three-quarter".

Alex was also able to deliberately answer incorrectly when he desired to.

I now quote directly from the article:

"...she told him it was time to go in the cage. The bird said 'You be good. I love you.' Pepperberg answered, 'I love you, too.' Alex then said, 'You'll be in tomorrow,' and she replied, 'Yes, I'll be in tomorrow.'" (Unfortunately, Alex was dead in the morning. )

Now, I need to side-track a bit.

The Hebrew word that expresses life (not just any life, all physical life-forms) is tied to the word blood, so that by definition, only creatures with blood are considered life. This means that, basically stated, only macroscopic members of Kingdom Animalia are considered life.

Combining those two separate concepts, life and intelligence, I came to wonder...exactly what effect does all this have on the spiritual state animals? By which I mean, "Can all life-forms willfully choose between good and evil?" and "will animals be converted into the spiritual dimension after death?"

My thoughts:

Animals don't have souls. We can say that with some degree of certainty. But does that stop them from having a spiritual existence?

Our souls is what we actually are. They are "us". Our "spirits" are actually the spiritual form our souls will posses in Heaven. (This is all my personal conjecture, I myself do not mistake it for truth. It may or may not be correct.)

So, what's to stop an animal's "essence" from being converted from a body to a spirit in heaven?

Actually, I'm not so sure they don't have souls. What sets us apart from animals is that we are "Made in HIS like-ness". Maybe having a soul has nothing to do with it!

So, you see, I don't really have any answers myself, but I wanted to share with you all, and see what you thought.

What I mean is that blood is the defining factor for life. Blood is also spiritually the representative of life, as the shedding of blood is necessary for the removal of sins. So, it is the biological and spiritual essence of life. Plants are in this sense not alive, because they have no blood, and this is why Cain's sacrifice was not acceptable to God: Blood was not shed, life was not destroyed. Thus, plants could not be used as a sacrifice.

So, blood is just the essence of life, in all senses.

The Bible does say that all living things ("everything that hath breath"), as well as the physical earth and celestial beings, praise God. However, I believe this praise is different than our voluntary worship. Animals and "nature" give glory to God by representing His amazing handiwork. We give our lives to Him voluntarily.

I don't have any real evidence for my belief on this matter, but deep down I believe that the animals on this earth will be in the next. For a God who has said:

"A righteous man regards the life of his animal." - Proverbs 12:10

And:

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." - Matthew 10:29

He obviously cares for His animals. I can't imagine them perishing without ever seeing them again. After all, don't we love our own pets?

What about these verses?

" For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity." - Ecclesiastes 3:19

"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" - Ecclesiastes 3:21

These verses suggest that animals are no different to man, and that animals indeed have a spirit, and coupled with this verse:

"But flesh with its life, its blood, you shall not eat." - Genesis 9:4

It seems that the spirit of an animal is in its blood, that's why we aren't to eat it.

Woah, that turned out longer then I intended! I think I'll leave it there!

You need to be careful with Ecclesiastes, especially when basing doctrine off of it like that. The context of those verses is the way things seem from an earthly perspective. i.e., under the sun. They are actually contradicted elsewhere in Scripture, such as in the Creation account and in the Psalms.

And there is this verse:

1 Corinthians 9:9-10 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The key difference, though, I believe, is that animals cannot sin. And as such, since I do believe animals have a transcendent part of them, I do think they might go to heaven. Since... there is no reason for them to go to hell, and it seems to make sense that they last beyond this world. * shrugs * I'm not dogmatic about it though (pun intended).

But I do not believe they are the same as us in any way. Just the mere fact that they were created for us would convince me of that.

I see what you mean about Ecclesiastes. I'll keep that in mind.

That was a good point I have never thought about. The fact that animals cannot sin gives us a promising indication that they may be in the next world.

Another point I meant to suggest in my previous post was something about these verses:

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD." - Isaiah 65:25

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." - Revelation 21:1

The first verse says that there definitely will be animals in the next world. However Revelation doesn't specify God creating new animals. So where do the animals come from? I know that is a small view that is very flawed and full of holes, but it was a thought, anyway.

I too agree that animals are not the same as humans. The only thing we have in common with animals is blood. An animal's life is in its blood. Humans have a soul.

Yes there will be animals in the new earth, but the whole new earth will be created from scratch, in perfection, like it was in the beginning. No curse.

The question is whether or not the spirit of an animal that dies in this world will be transferred into a new body, like our new body, in the next world.

Hm. Well, I guess Revelation doesn't say whether that is the case or not. However the lack of mentioning if God in fact creates brand new animals could suggest the animals of this earth have their bodies renewed, but that could work vice versa as well.

*shakes head* I'm getting confusing. We will all find out when we get there, I suppose!

* chuckles * Well if the elements melt with a fervent heat... and if all old things pass away... and if there is a new heavens and a new earth... and if they have different geography... then I would assume new animals would have to be made.

Yep, we will.

*re-reminds self to buy this book: http://whitehorsemedia.com/products/?d=8 *

I have this discussion with my family often so it's interesting hearing different thoughts. One of the arguments my brother had was that if God transformed earthly animals into new bodies for the new world, the new heaven and earth would be over populated with animals. I should probably stop posting before I get too carried away though.

Well, I wrote this lovely long post of awesomenss, but somehow it got deleted, so when I wake up from the deep, dark hole of depression I sunk in I'll try it again. Ugh.

But why just because in Hebrew two words are linked mean that in real life they're synonymous? I don't get it. Language is man-made, and reflects the belief of the time. I have no doubt that people thought that blood and life were linked, but how does that make it true? It totally makes sense that people would think the two things were linked; they'd seen animals and people bleed to death and of course blood is vital to those who have it. But that doesn't mean that belief was right, just because the people who thought it also wrote the Bible. They also thought the world was flat.

Also, someone mentioned Cain. I've always seen it as the plants weren't good becaue Cain chose some, while Abel chose the best. I don't see why if Cain had chosen the best of the work he'd poured his soul, time, and sweat into that wouldn't have been a-okay. And maybe Abel did his work with the glory of God as his goal, while Cain did it with yummy salad as his. But I don't think the plants were the issue. Because just think if Cain had chosen the best, the most delicious, juicy stuff he would've loved to eat, what he'd spent all year working on, and gave it to God out of the desire to please him, totally okay with not having that really yummy melon that would've really cooled him down, because God was the joy of his life. And them God rejected that gift. Because Cain hadn't decided to be a rancher. It just doesn't make sense. Cain would've been serving God where he was.
So I don't think the veggies were the issue. I think his attitude was.
Anyway. Next I'll talk about souls and Data and sentience and fun stuff. WoOt.

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

That's why. That isn't the only place it is said either. It is repeated in every single covenant and dispensation after that too.

This thread (which has an awesome title, by the way) has mostly become about animals in our own world and what the Bible says in that regard, which is really cool! But since it is not about fantasy writing, or even writing in general, it will be even cooler in its new home: General Discussion. May its days there be long and its comments thereupon continue to be increasingly wise and well-written.