Holy Worlds Christian Forum
https://archive.holyworlds.org/

Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=250&t=1734		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Aragorn [ December 29th, 2010, 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
While J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis are perhaps the two most well known fantasy writers of our time, with the possible exception of J. K. Rowling, there were many fantasy writers before them. These authors include George MacDonald, William Morris, Lord Dunsany, L. Frank Baum, and many more. The list of fantasy works written before Tolkien and Lewis could also include the numerous mythologies and legends from around the world.

Have you read any fantasy works written before The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia? And if so, would you recommend them or not?
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 29th, 2010, 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
George MacDonald wrote fantasy? I thought he was just a theologian. I'll have to look into that...
Author:  Aragorn [ December 29th, 2010, 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Riniel Jasmina wrote:
George MacDonald wrote fantasy? I thought he was just a theologian. I'll have to look into that...

Yes, he wrote The Princess and the Goblin as well as many fairy tales.
Author:  Sarah Sawyer [ December 29th, 2010, 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I have read most of MacDonald's fantasy novels (The Princess and the Goblin, The Princess and Curdie, Phantastes, Lilith, and numerous shorter tales) and enjoyed them, though he sometimes veers into strange theologies.

Sticking with Christian fantasy written before Narnia and LOTR (both published in the 1950s), there were several books by GK Chesterton and John Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress. I also recently discovered Elizabeth Goudge and read her novel The Little White Horse, published in 1946. Any of these are worth a read, though written in a very different style than you would see today. :)
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ December 30th, 2010, 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
MacDonald's writing is good--in fact, it was inspiration for C.S. Lewis. Baum isn't bad, but not my favorite =)

eruheran
Author:  Lady Elanor [ December 30th, 2010, 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Didn't Baum write The Wizard of Oz? I've read that.
Author:  Aragorn [ December 30th, 2010, 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Elanor wrote:
Didn't Baum write The Wizard of Oz? I've read that.

Yes, the Oz books are his most famous works.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ December 30th, 2010, 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Does he have other works? I liked his writing, sort of, but the setting of Oz just didn't work for me. . .especially after hearing it was all political about the Populists and the gold standard and stuff. =)

eruheran
Author:  Aragorn [ December 30th, 2010, 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
eruheran wrote:
Does he have other works? I liked his writing, sort of, but the setting of Oz just didn't work for me. . .especially after hearing it was all political about the Populists and the gold standard and stuff. =)

eruheran

In addition to the numerous Oz books, L. Frank Baum wrote short stories and some other novels including The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus.
Author:  The Wolverminion [ December 30th, 2010, 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
One of my favorite short stories ever is The Little Mermaid. That's pretty old. :D
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 30th, 2010, 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Really Luke? * chuckles *
Author:  Aragorn [ December 30th, 2010, 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Luke the Mindwielder wrote:
One of my favorite short stories ever is The Little Mermaid. That's pretty old. :D

Airianna Valenshia wrote:
Really Luke? * chuckles *

Isn't the original story a tragedy?
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 30th, 2010, 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Yes. Not at all like the Disney version we all watched as kids.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 30th, 2010, 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Hans Christian Anderson, yeah, I read that one. And it is really good and only a half tragedy. She's noble instead of being a brat.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 30th, 2010, 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
But she still DIES!
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 30th, 2010, 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
But that's not the absolute ending. She turns to sea foam but she now has a redeemable soul.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 30th, 2010, 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
:P It is still a tragedy, Jazz! And the part about the sea foam was horrible! who wants to turn into sea foam when they die?
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 30th, 2010, 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
But she still has a mind and soul. It's not just BAM you're sea foam forever. She can go to heaven now! That's like saying The Last Battle is a tragedy.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 30th, 2010, 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
*chuckles* I think there is a load of difference between the way LB handles that subject, and how LM handles it. But okay. You think it is a redeemable tragedy, I just think it is tragedy. :D
Author:  The Wolverminion [ December 30th, 2010, 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I love tragedies. :P The story was so well written I just about cried. Which is rare when I read novels, even more so when I read short stories.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ December 30th, 2010, 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Riniel Jasmina wrote:
But she still has a mind and soul. It's not just BAM you're sea foam forever. She can go to heaven now! That's like saying The Last Battle is a tragedy.


But The Last Battle is a tragedy!

Shakespeare may have confused tragedy with sad endings, but we don't need to.

Phantastes is beautiful, as well as many of MacDonald's other short stories. Of course, they tend to resemble folk lore more than what we call fantasy now. Macdonald wrote using his contemporary conventions, now we use our own conventions, I suppose.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 31st, 2010, 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Dracula! I read Dracula... Utterly amazing too.
Author:  The Bard [ January 1st, 2011, 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Many of the Greek and Norse myths are good.
But I love the sagas of the Norse the best. These are what inspired Tolkien; things like Beowulf, Finn and Hengest, or Singurd, and Gudrun.

I know that Tolkien was influenced by William Morris, Edward Wyke-Smith, and H. Rider Haggard.
Author:  Calenmiriel [ January 1st, 2011, 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I agree. The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Anderson is a fabulous story! It's much more dramatic than Disney's and the more moral to it, in my humble opinion. :)
Author:  Aragorn [ January 2nd, 2011, 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
It's interesting that the majority of posts so far have been about "The Little Mermaid." That was quite unexpected. :D
Author:  The Wolverminion [ January 2nd, 2011, 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Well look at who started it! Me. :D

Who am I? The resident Cynical Libertarian Humorist.

What do humorists do? Be unexpected!

It only makes sense. ;)
Author:  Laura Elizabeth [ January 2nd, 2011, 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I've read some George Macdonald: Princess and the Goblin (it was shortened, but still pretty long, with lots of beautiful artwork); I tried reading Lilith and Phantastes, but they were horrible! His writing was so stilted... Lewis surpassed him by far. And he had some wacky theological beliefs, to boot. I also read The Light Princess, which starts out very humorously, and kind of in the end turns into a typical fairy tale in the style of Lang. I still enjoyed it, though :)
I've read some of L. Frank Baum, but not only do I think The Wizard of Oz is a hidden attack on God (really! I do! Ask me about it), but the whole idea that it's in our world, and in our time (well, not quite our time) and somehow Dorothy ends up there in chance ways is off putting to me. I don't know. I guess I'm spoiled on Narnia :D
I've also read a lot of Hans Christian Anderson (a lot of his stories aren't exactly fairy tales, but moral stories, often set either in his time, or in Egypt, or the time of the Norsemen or something like that), and several of the colored fairy books compiled by Andrew Lang. After a while, they got very boring and repetitive. To tell the truth, I don't read a lot of fairy tales anymore. Basically, Lewis and Tolkien are fine for me. In the past year I've read a few contemporary fantasies, but that's not the subject we're on.
Author:  Aragorn [ January 2nd, 2011, 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Laura Elizabeth wrote:
I've read some of L. Frank Baum, but not only do I think The Wizard of Oz is a hidden attack on God (really! I do! Ask me about it), but the whole idea that it's in our world, and in our time (well, not quite our time) and somehow Dorothy ends up there in chance ways is off putting to me. I don't know. I guess I'm spoiled on Narnia :D

Okay, I'm asking: How is The Wizard of Oz a hidden attack on God? :D
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ January 3rd, 2011, 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I agree with Laura on that, Jonathan.

If you study why he wrote it, and his views, and such, it's not really political. It's very much about trying to find God, and finding that he's nothing but a helpless old fake, and finding your own light within. :P
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ January 3rd, 2011, 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
I just read an article about that! Let me find it... Ah, here we are.
Author:  Aragorn [ January 3rd, 2011, 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Willow Wenial wrote:
I agree with Laura on that, Jonathan.

If you study why he wrote it, and his views, and such, it's not really political. It's very much about trying to find God, and finding that he's nothing but a helpless old fake, and finding your own light within. :P

I haven't read it, which is why I was curious.

Thanks for the link, Shawn.
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ January 3rd, 2011, 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
No problem. :) I'm interested to see what y'all think.
Author:  Aragorn [ January 3rd, 2011, 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
That is an interesting article, though it's hard to tell from the article whether this interpretation is something L. Frank Baum intended or just something that is being exaggerated.
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ January 4th, 2011, 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Jonathan Garner wrote:
That is an interesting article, though it's hard to tell from the article whether this interpretation is something L. Frank Baum intended or just something that is being exaggerated.


Good point. Hmm...
Author:  Aragorn [ January 6th, 2011, 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
The strange theological beliefs of George MacDonald have been mentioned more than once. Does anyone want to give details as to what those theological beliefs are and how they affect his writing?
Author:  Laura Elizabeth [ January 9th, 2011, 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Jonathan Garner wrote:
Laura Elizabeth wrote:
I've read some of L. Frank Baum, but not only do I think The Wizard of Oz is a hidden attack on God (really! I do! Ask me about it), but the whole idea that it's in our world, and in our time (well, not quite our time) and somehow Dorothy ends up there in chance ways is off putting to me. I don't know. I guess I'm spoiled on Narnia :D

Okay, I'm asking: How is The Wizard of Oz a hidden attack on God? :D

Sorry I didn't get back to you for so long :blush:
Well, you know the wizard that everyone is so afraid of? He can make himself into just about anything, and Dorothy and Co. goes to get his help, and anyways, they find out that it's just a tiny little man who does a lot of illusions to scare people, and he's not really a wizard or anything. Now, my dad thinks this, and it makes total sense to me, that the wizard is supposed to be like God. Everyone is afraid of him, and he can make them think he's really big and scary, when in reality he's actually just a little nobody (which is to say, probably doesn't even exist). Certainly, Baum's books aren't Christian, and I actually need to look him up on Wikipedia. Hope that helped :)
Author:  Aragorn [ January 9th, 2011, 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Laura Elizabeth wrote:
Sorry I didn't get back to you for so long :blush:

That's all right.

Laura Elizabeth wrote:
Well, you know the wizard that everyone is so afraid of? He can make himself into just about anything, and Dorothy and Co. goes to get his help, and anyways, they find out that it's just a tiny little man who does a lot of illusions to scare people, and he's not really a wizard or anything. Now, my dad thinks this, and it makes total sense to me, that the wizard is supposed to be like God. Everyone is afraid of him, and he can make them think he's really big and scary, when in reality he's actually just a little nobody (which is to say, probably doesn't even exist). Certainly, Baum's books aren't Christian, and I actually need to look him up on Wikipedia. Hope that helped :)

I can see how it could be interpreted that way.
Author:  Elly [ January 10th, 2011, 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Ari, I'm beginning to recognized blacked-out spoiler tags. The short ones are ALWAYS "dies". :rofl:
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ January 10th, 2011, 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
*chuckles* Yes.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ January 10th, 2011, 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
Then we need to put something else in there, don't we then? DIES DRASTICALLY or DIES A HORRIBLY TRAGIC AND DEVASTATING DEATH-LIKE THING would work nicely. :P

Sorry, carry on. This is an interesting discussion y'all have going here. I agree with Laura Elizabeth about Oz, though I wouldn't go so far as to let that stop me from reading it.
Author:  Aragorn [ January 12th, 2011, 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fantasy Before Tolkien and Lewis
The Worm Ouroboros by E. R. Eddison is a fantasy novel set on another planet, supposedly Mercury, but this aspect is largely ignored, since it focuses on a war between two fantasy kingdoms. Despite being somewhat entertaining, it unfortunately has a dark worldview, and for that reason is probably best passed over by most.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/