I have some male characters like that but hey, it's hard to find shirts that fit wings. [/offtopic]

Hey, you should do what Brian Davis does. Have them wear a back-pack everywhere.

If I may venture to get sucked in to this maelstrom of debate .First of all - I take nothing the Princess Bride says seriously. That allows me to enjoy it as a pure comedy.

Secondly, in regards to the book. It's ok, I guess, but personally I found it a lot worse than the movie. I actually didn't even finish it-just because of what was in there and stuff. I don't know. Read it if you want, but speaking as someone who was read and seen both, the movie is better.

In regards to the various issues that Philli has brought up. Let me just say, first of all, that I admire your standards. A lot of times it's hard to find people with discernment about movies, and I respect the fact that you won't watch certain movies.

That being said, I think the key in this movie is to know that it was made to make fun of cliches. I think they did so in a creative way. The following paragraph is full of cliches the book contains.

Lover goes off to sea, and dies, later comes back. Lover dies and is brought back to life. Girl goes to commit suicide when she thinks lover is dead. Random guy with a backstory is out for revenge. Absurdly weird overlord who is always thwarted. Three bumbling villains, two of whom are really actually good. A tense-face off between the villain and hero which, of course, the hero wins. A huge cliff with a rope; rope is cut but the hero still makes it. An arranged marriage to someone the girl doesn't love. A thieves' forest. Random forest with lots of trials in it. A random pit (which in the book is actually six stories tall and stocked with lots of wild beasts) with lots of trials and danger. Ride away in to the sunset and happily ever after. (Those aren't in order, BTW )

I mean, the entire movie is chock full of cliches. And that's what it's addressing, I think.

So, to wrap up this long-winded *rant* I do respect your decision not to watch it, and I'm not trying to convince you to watch it, because that would basically just be telling you that I have no respect for your standards. But hopefully I explained sort of my reasons that I don't have a problem watching it.

Thanks for that, Eruheran. I appreciate it and respect your opinion. My standards are high partially because I was raised that way... and partially because I have to set up some very strong borders. I don't know about y'all, but I have actively found myself becoming accepting of little objectionable "things" if I watch a movie with them in it too often. The first watch, I frown when the unmarried guy and girl kiss. Second watch, I'm prepared for it. Third and subsequent watches? Suddenly it's not a big deal... suddenly it's not a big deal anywhere in life.

In some ways, this is my personality. I am very much engrossed in movies in a way that I never am with books. It doesn't take nearly as much work for a movie to impact me and involve me, probably because it is a visual media. But the fact remains... what I watch affects not only my mind but my own writing in ways that can lower my standards. I have this problem even with my beloved Pixar movies. I know I'll never find a "perfect" film, but where to draw the line is a difficult task indeed.

I understand what you're saying about cliches, and I do think that was this movie's purpose, but I don't see any reason why a movie built out of cliches couldn't be clean.

Hmm... Interesting. I'm not that way.

Me either, actually. But that was more a decision on my part, subsequently trained into my psyche than anything else.

I think this statement will shock you all. I've never seen it, and I've barely heard of it.

I'll mention it here when I see it though.

I have occasionally encountered persons such as you.

I really hate (and also take a sinister delight in) putting myself on the opposing side of whatever side Jay picks in a discussion. I also hate (and take a sinister delight in) participating in controversial discussions. That said, I feel that I must weight in my views.

It is in my nature to over analyze things. When I watched Monte Python and the Holy Grail, I saw a harsh social commentary, not a comedy.

When I watched The Princess Bride I saw exactly the sort of propaganda (and I use that word in a literal sense) that I utterly despise.

And yet I cannot help but laugh each time I watch the movie. That makes me very distrustful of it.

Most of us see and ignore the inappropriate kissing, or Inigo's "cussing", and move on. Those aren't my problems.

Inigo is out for revenge. That isn't right. We want justice, but Inigo is definitely NOT dealing out justice. But most of us (including myself) find that Inigo is a compelling character. We cheer for him when he takes his revenge.

And that really bothers me.

The movie is flippant about crime, theft, and piracy. That bothers me. Even though it is not seriously intended, it still desensitizes us.

Some of us have experienced and surrendered to more of the world than others. All I know is that I long for the days of innocence when I found inappropriate kisses, flippant perspectives on crime, and a positive perspective on revenge, to be physically revolting.

Let me put it this way: Jesus is always watching you. Do you think he enjoys watching the Princess Bride with you?

What does Christ take pleasure in? Certainly not our desire to be entertained. And that is what ultimately disturbs me about the Princess Bride. You spend two hours pleasing yourself and what do you gain? Nothing. And some of us actually loose something.

Think about something else you could have done. Even another movie you could have watched. The Gospel of John and The Passion come to mind.

Continue feeding your drive for mindless entertainment and it will destroy you. If you want to know why Christians have strayed so far from Christ in the Western world, look no farther than your video game console, your TV, your radio, your books, and your desire to be entertained.

Worldly entertainment obeys the Law of Diminishing Returns. Just like money, the more you have, the more you will want. The more you feed yourself this worldly entertainment, the more you will need it. Some people have been consumed by it altogether, turned into emotional vegetables constantly in pursuit of the next "fun" thing.

Movies like The Princess Bride are holding you down. Using them to satisfy your desire for entertainment is like living on junk food.

We have a genuine desire for entertainment. It is a God given impulse to delight it. But when we feed our spirits on garbage instead of the real thing, we make ourselves into spiritual couch potatoes.

I was recently shocked to discover that, while Country dances of all sorts are immensely popular among my homeschool community, only FOUR students, including myself, were interested in Jewish dancing, which is used as an expression of worship. Four out of many, many people.

Instead of pursuing these worldly, junky, addictive counterfeits, let us turn to wholesome, simplistic entertainment. Let us learn to delight in life's simple joys. Like stories of couples who's "happily ever after" was rescued (Fireproof), or of a man's triumph over the world (Standing Firm), or of a young girl who saves her first kiss for her wedding (Pamela's Prayer). Let's find wholesome entertainment that builds us up instead of feeding fleshly desires.

Sorry to preach. But that's what I think about Princess Bride and a number of other movies. I'm not even a good example of what I preach. I'm as hypocritical as anyone you want to point out. But I'm convicted and I feel lead to share that conviction with you.

This may well be my longest post on HW.

So...entertainment is bad?

I enjoyed that your post, Neil.


I agree to a certain extent. What we put into our minds is important and will have an effect upon us.


Exactly right.

No. Certain forms of entertainment are bad.

I said that our desire to be entertained is a God given impulse. The problem is when that desire becomes self-serving. I believe that our desire for entertainment was meant to lead to taking pleasure in worship, service, and wholesome stories, knowledge, and other activities. But most entertainment these days is focused on US. We should take pleasure in things that make us focus outside of ourselves and on something which God cares about.

So entertainment is OK if it has a blatantly Christian message?

(Just trying to understand you completely.)

Wow, I had no idea there was so much controversy over this movie! Here's my 2 cents...

I read the book first. And I hated it. The interruptions by Goldman of the story that is supposedly written by "Morgenstern" really drove me nuts. There was also a bit of questionable content right at the end. It was a big jumble, and it was very frustrating to read, I don't think I'll ever read it again.

For some reason, I got the movie from the library and watched it with my family. I'm on Jonathan's side. I found it really boring, and in some parts, it was just so silly my whole family groaned. There was only one scene I like and remember, and that was Inigo's sword fight with the other guy. "I'm not right handed."

Personally, I can't see why everyone loves it so much. If I had to rate it with the MLIA rating, I would probably give it "Meh". Now I will run out of the room before I get shouted at.

*scurries away*

Okay Jordan, I know where you are coming from, just let me caution you on using absolute fact statements. Your statements are saying that How to Train Your Dragon is an inappropriate source of entertainment because it doesn't have a Christ focused message. I'd disagree with you there. Now, my disagreement has nothing to do with The Princess Bride. I'm not crazy about the movie, although I did laugh at parts of the movie, and I love some of the catchy words and phrases.

* grins *

I might have missed something, but Neil, was Inigo's revenge the only thing in the movie other than questionable content that made it bad? I mean, was that the only message that was wrong?

Because I agree with it. Haha. But I won't start an argument about modern avengers of blood...

Don't worry, revenge is on my list of theology subjects to start.

Me agrees with Jay on this one.

Of course, I sympathize with pirates, outlaws, and thieves to an extent. Not all laws are just, and I'm aware of the fact that I might be an outlaw some day, for my faith. So I don't have a problem with those things portrayed in a favorable light, to an extent.

Same here. In fact, I am expecting to do things deliberately that will most likely end up in that situation...

Neil, I appreciate your thought-out and convicting post. I believe the reasons you stated are why we, as Christians, have to be conscious about our entertainment. That is also why I worry about blindly enjoying a film with objectionable content. (Speaking solely about myself now.) It desensitizes, and little things can sneak in under the guise of "it's harmless entertainment" that we would be appalled at in real life.

I don't think this means Christians need to write off every piece of secular entertainment, however. I'll have to look up some of the movies you mentioned, but the fact of the matter is, there's just not that much for true Christian entertainment. I often find supposedly "Christian" fiction to be worse moralistically than some secular pieces! And some of the Christian stuff out there is just not that well-made.

As a screenwriter, I need to study movies. It's necessary to develop my art. But I have very high standards about movies. How does this work? How did I get in this position?

I don't know. It wasn't my doing. I'm not the one that said, "Here, let's give this girl that hasn't seen a new movie in years (and the last thing she saw was Bionicle 3) Celtx and a screenplay idea and see how she does!"

God did.

I'm a screenwriter. I study movies. I am also one of the pickiest persons on this board (and other forums) about what I'll watch. But God is faithful, and He provides a steady stream of secular material that meets the necessary standards (passes parental approval). I've been able to watch plenty of new (or new-to-me) movies and study them to the betterment of my writing this year. I'm not saying that my profession necessarily requires me to watch movies... if God wanted me to be a screenwriter and didn't want me to watch any current films, He can make that work. But at the moment, He's provided such that I have things to watch that help my writing, and my writing hasn't suffered because I didn't watch such-and-such a classic with objectionable content. He's faithful, that's the bottom line.

I know some of my secular choices have a few issues. I know anything that's made by another human being will have issues. Where to draw the line is always a struggle. But God will guide.

I think I may've lost my own point to this post...? All of that to say, I agree with both Neil and Jay on this issue. I love HTTYD, and there are some wholesome morals in there. (I love it when Hiccup apologizes to his father and admits "I messed up so bad!" How many times do teens in modern literature do that?) There is also some romance, which I dislike. But I studied HTTYD in great detail and it helped me immensely with my own script.

So, them's my thoughts. (Thanks, Jonathan!)

Don't you know it. I've been in that boat.

If it is not God honoring, it's unhealthy. God is the center and the edge of the universe, so to speak, and if it doesn't have to do with Him, it's of no use to me.

Not that movies have to be blatantly God honoring. I consider UP to be God honoring in its message and portrayal of morality, despite the fact that neither God nor religion are ever brought up.



Does that clear up your problem? My absolute statement don't necessarily rule out How to Train Your Dragon. I haven't seen in so I can't really judge whether it in particular is God honoring.



Inigo's revenge was just kind of a jumping off point into my main argument that the Princess Bride is not God honoring.

My problem is that I believe that God has purposed that revenge and justice lay within the bounds of government, as far as Earthly life is concerned. An eye for an eye is a maxim for our civil lives, not our personal lives. Inigo's revenge is intensely personal, and therefore wrong.



The difficulty is that pirates, outlaws, and thieves who are doing the right thing are a special case, not the norm. Remember, the original Robin Hood doesn't steal from the rich, he steals from those who gain their money dishonestly.



Two things:

1. I think part of the "quality" issue is that the modern movie has trained us to expect the wrong things from entertainment.

2. I'm not talking about accepting anything "Christian" and throwing out anything "secular". All I'm saying is that entertainment should be God honoring. Define God honoring however you like, I don't see how Princess Bride falls under that category.

________________________

The final issue is this: what use is entertainment?

We Christians in the western world use entertainment in a self serving way. It's all about what pleases us. Instead we should learn to be entertained by whatever pleases God.

Think about something you could have done other than watching the Princess Bride, during the same amount of time. Maybe working at a soup kitchen, or ministering to the elderly?

How about praying? Reading your Bible?

Now tell me that Princess Bride is better than those things. Anyone think so?

I'm not asking you to throw the baby out with the bathwater. All I'm saying is that, during our time on Earth, we are specifically called to focus outside of ourselves and upon God. In the West, Christianity has become something that is about US. We pray because it feels good. We read the Bible when we need to. We go to churches with good speakers who don't touch the touchy issues and have concerts (whether rock concerts or anything else) for worship services.

Entertainment, just like prayer, worship, and our very lives, is meant to be God-focuses and God-honoring.

It is only AFTER we have learned to deny ourselves that God will give our selves back to us. And I don't think anyone living can claim to have learned to truly deny themselves.

I'm not asking you to live like monks...I'm asking to live for God in absolutely everything.

So to you Entertainment is bad.

To me pretty much anything can be "God honoring"; someone famous I think it was said "a tree is glorifying to God because it's a tree".

Again: no.

Our current entertainment cultural is bad. Our Christian perception of entertainment is bad.

It's not inherently wrong to be entertained. We were created with the capacity for it. But we must learn to be entertained by the right things.



Anything can be said to be God honoring, just as much as I can say that everything is blue colored with brown stripes.

It just ain't so.

For something to be God honoring, it must either reflect a facet of God's character, be intended to worship God, or demonstrate God's glory.

This is why Up is a God honoring movie. It clearly reflects many facets of God's character.

Princess Bride, on the other hand, can't be said to fulfill the requirements for being God honoring. It is flippant and careless about many things that God hates, and sheds some sins in a humorous light.

I don't think we can really talk about this. From what you're saying I'm getting that we need to all have the same standards as you.
(They tried that already with the pope. Didn't work too well )

I'm not saying you need to have the same standards as me. I believe my standards are probably valid (you look up God honoring some time) but I can't know anything for sure and I don't pretend to.

BUT, if my standards happen to match God's standards, then not having the same standards is a very serious thing.

Either way, you're operating on an assumption. Either you can assume that my standards are correct, or that your standards are correct, or that no standards are correct. And unless you back up your assumption with the Bible, then it is only an assumption, nothing more.



We have a God given desire for entertainment, just as we have one for food. But this desire (like the body) is mean for the Lord, and the Lord must be Lord of that desire.
______________

As a final note, I request that you do not attack my character. Attacking my character only muddles the discussion (which appears to be turning into a debate) and distracts us from what really matters. Please, rebut my arguments, not my character.

I have never watched it, I've never read the books. If I'm honest when it comes to fantasy films (if this is a fantasy film) I don't watch/haven't seen or read many at all.

Neil, you said:

'We pray because it feels good. We read the Bible when we need to. We go to churches with good speakers who don't touch the touchy issues and have concerts (whether rock concerts or anything else) for worship services.'

I know I don't pray because it makes me feel good, if I got like that it would be something I would have to seek God about. We aren't/shouldn't be Christians because we want a 'feel good factor' because if that is the case then we need to be worried! I just feel that we should be careful not to put everyone in the same category as the 'feel good' Christians. It's great if people feel called to only watch films with a Christian message, however personally, as long as there is no very bad content in it, I don't mind watching non christian films. If all you are doing is putting the TV/Christian entertainment first, even when only watching Christian films, then it is still entertainment and God should come first before even Christian movies.

Lastly, I know some people who don't even have a TV and don't get me wrong here, but I don't think it makes them a 'better Christian' in any way. I respect them for their belief though all the same.

I do find, especially with some films more than others, that they are empty and worthless and when finished I think, why did I watch that? But when it comes to true life war films and true stories I feel it keeps their memory alive.

P.S I hope I have not gone too off topic here and in no way am I trying to point the finger in any way! I hope I haven't sounded proud or anything at all this is just in my opinion! Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

So far Neil besides the revenge thing what is it (to you) that makes The Princess Bride evil?

About standards. I believe that if Bob believes A and I believe B on a subject that is grey then we are both right and for Bob to do B would be sinful for him.
Hope that makes some sense...



(And I still think trees are "God honoring" without having a prayer meeting.)

You're welcome, but... What did I do?

Supported my other post?

Oh. I thought my post was such a small thing that you must have meant something else. Well, you're welcome again, now that I know what you mean.

I never said that Princess Bride is evil.

I said it's useless, worldly, and unhealthy. Everything is lawful, not everything is useful. The Princess Bride is not God honoring and therefore it is not useful to me as a Christian.

They cannot both be right. If "A" contradicts "B" then by definition, only one can be true.

What you are talking about is lawfulness, not truth. And while I am, in certain respects a "weaker brother", I do not believe this is one of those cases. I have provided Biblical support for my position.

Again, you do not seem to understand my definition of God honoring.



Clearly, trees demonstrate God's glory, and are therefore God honoring.

But see, Neil, we can disagree over what is God-honoring.

We've learned important lessons from Princess Bride and Prince Humperdink. The last time we watched it, I think, my dad talked for an hour about something he'd realized about governments because of Humperdink's line:

"You know how much I love watching you work, but I have my wife to murder, and Guilder to frame for it, I'm swamped!"

Yes, it's built on cliches, and yes it's not meant to be taken seriously, but there's truth there too.

Brink is right. It is a grey area. You can't assume that your standards are in line with God's standards and that someone else's aren't, just because they aren't in line with yours. No one can make that assumption.

I think the key point to consider here is that we are all just explaining our own views on Princess Bride (and entertainment in general, it seems). This thread isn't really here for us to come to any sort of conclusion on the matter: i.e., Princess Bride is definitely bad and we all agree on that. Far from it.

What we are doing is merely bringing up our thoughts on it, so that other people can see our point of view. As such, debate isn't really helpful (or expedient, depending on your translation, haha).

So I ask that we calmly discuss our own views, and not necessarily the views of other people. Ask questions, don't attack.

I think I should watch it this weekend! I'm in need of a girly film to watch. Then I'll let you know if I liked it or not lol.

Sorry. I'll try to keep it down.



What Katie said!

It's not really very girly.

In the interest of discussing my view without debating, I'm going to reword these statements as questions. And this will be my last post, because I've technically already answered these questions.



Rewording: "But, Neil, couldn't we define God honoring in a different way?"

Someone could. I can offer clear, Biblical support for my definition of God honoring. Additionally, I would like to note that the definition of the word honoring (in the context of respect or adherence) seems to support my idea.

I just believe there are better ways we could spend our time. Ultimately, it is that simple.



Rewording: "Isn't this just a gray area? Aren't we all Biblically entitled to our own opinion on gray areas?

Well, you see, I don't think it's a gray area. (Technically, I don't believe in the common definition of "gray area", but that's not what I'm talking about right now.) I think the Bible (and the verse I quoted specifically) are very clear on the subject. I am trying to live according to the Bible. You also try to do this. I am not claiming that I am doing it better than you are. In fact, I am quite certain that you (at least) are doing much better than me in general.

I am not better than you. Your interpretation may be correct. I offered support for my position and that is all that anyone can do.

Aaw. That's bad! Now look, I shan't watch it and it's all your fault.

Unless it's a girly film and you just don't want to admit it, hehe.

Now, now Neil! That's not fair, now we have to go through all your answers and re word all those so we can answer you! Lol

I think what everything boils down to is this: Katie, Brink, and Jay, all find PB to be entertaining. They recognize it is not harmless and has some point of issue in it, and therefore they keep their mind alert for these things instead of mindlessly consuming them. They can section out the parts they disagree with, while still enjoying the film. Philli recognizes the issues with the film and those cause her not to enjoy the film. For her to watch it again would not be beneficial to her. Not because she can't watch it, but because there is no benefit. For Jay, Brink, and Katie, it is beneficial. They find enjoyment in the film. Therefor there is nothing wrong with them indulging in mirth and entertainment, which is a God given, thus God honoring, response.

Neil doesn't enjoy the film. He finds there are better uses for his time, as well as not being entertaining because of the convictions God has given him. Thus, it isn't God honoring for Neil because it does not generate in him a Godly response.

Princess Bride is not evil, as Neil clarified. However, it affects people differently. If the meat offered to idols causes you to stumble, you should not eat it, for to go against your beliefs is a sin. The meat is not sinful, it is the act of violating yourself. I see movies to be the same. Now, that is not to say that you can watch anything you want. We all know and can agree on movies that are just plain bad for us to watch, and destructive in their very nature. PB is not one of them.

Hope this helps.

* chuckles * One of the central story arcs in the movie is the question about whether or not it is a girly movie. * grins *

I, personally, think it is a girly movie that guys don't mind loving (or liking, as the case may be).

Well it sounds like I'd like it, I should watch it! Would you recommend it Jay? I don't know where I would get it from although I could order off Love Film, only we order family things from there and Mum and Dad aren't mad on fantasy.

I agree. It is a fairly girly film.

Great summary Air, thanks.

And yes, I would recommend it, actually. You have already had a pretty good description of its merits and demerits, so you are well informed. Haha.

No problem. Glad it was helpful.

A beautiful post, Airianna, the God-honoring and uplifting kind God so often sends through you.

Just remember it's Him that sends it, guys. I appreciate the way you worded that, Philli.

Posts like that make me painfully aware of how tangled up my language is...

That's only what I've been trying to say...

Thank you, Airianna. Exactly.

That's why I posted it. It seemed like people were trying to say this basic thing and their meaning wasn't coming across right. I'm glad I helped clarify

I would say it's gender neutral. I just wanted her to know its not a "Love Comes Softly" movie or something of that kind.


I'm so garbled in real life it amazes me that I make any sense at all.