Begun by Eleanor of Aquitaine, the ideal of "courtly love" was one of the defining aspects of the Arthurian legends and much of the medieval writings we have today.

Here's a quick summary, for those not so well-versed in this concept (found here):



Clearly, the idea of "courtly love" raises several severe theological and moral questions.

How would you portray this ideal? Have you ever written a story modeled on the medieval idea of courtly love? What are the major questions or critiques you have of this "ideal"?

I actually haven't thought/heard about this much, but I'll see what other people say first and then see if I can form some sort of 'good opinion'. It sounds like a very interesting topic!

Wow. I have never heard of this before, but I find it fascinating. *Shall have to find out more about this sometime.*

Ugh...this disgusts me on so many levels.

We all know what the Bible has to say about fornication and adultery. Also, the idea of a guy submitting to and being in obedience to me is just repulsive. These knights sound oppressed to me.

Eh, slightly creepy now that it's explained.

Now the fall of Arthur's court makes more sense.

*cringes *

Well, okay, so we've established that this is a repulsive thing cloaked under a pretty, romantic name.

Now to business: how can we combat it in our own writing?

Not have it? Or have something more along the lines of a Wild West relationship.

Granted, it was a real thing, so not having it wouldn't be completely right either.

Probably portray it negatively.

*Frowns* The middle ages was a dark time in history.

C. S Lewis wrote a book about this, called The Allegory of Love. Very random fact, but it would be interesting to read on this topic.

Not random--quite related, actually. *puts it on list of books to read*

I think it is more of a factual book, its called The Allegory of Love: A Study in Medieval Tradition; so it's factual; I imagine if you're interested in learning more on this topic it would be a really informative book to read.

*Is in complete disgust* That is so repulsive. *Makes a disgusted face*

If we were writing a utopia it would be wonderful to leave it out! unfortunately, we're not...(at least I don't think we are...)

But honestly I have no clue what to do with the info I just took in, writing wise....

*ponders* I guess one could leave it out depending on what age group they are writing for.

I'll probably end up having it in the Arthurian series I'll write, simply because it's the legends of Arthur rather than the actual history, and the legends won't make sense without it. Oh well, I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.

Nice expression, Varon

Andrew

*does a double take*

I like it!

Oh, I confused two different expressions, I think.

Or the fact that I'm writing an Arthurian legends story?

Well, there's 'Cross that bridge when you come to it' and then there's 'burn your bridges' which means you can't go back, sorta. I like your mix better though

I agree with Hermy--burn the bridge sounds very final in a good way.

*laughs * That is an awesome expresison, Varon. It sounds so final!

So when Knights held jousting contests and so on, was this connected to this idea? Because they often chose a token from one of the ladies to wear.

Yes, it was.

Ooh, I have always loved that aspect of jousting. I guess I wasn't seeing the whole picture.

I might be wrong though, it's been a long time since I've done anything with medieval period.

Aaaugh, really?. Jousting seems gross now!

No I don't think jousting was in aid of this, put picking a Ladies token to wear was.

Oh, well, that doesn't seem as bad any more...although that's still pretty gross.

Actually, hate to break it, but jousting was part of the whole package. Yup.

Medieval Courtly Love allowed knights and ladies to show their admiration regardless of their marital state. It was a common occurrence for a married lady to give a token to a knight of her choice to be worn during a Medieval tournament.

As a side note, there were rules for courtly love. Very loose ones, I grant you, but there were rules none the less. The origins of Medieval Courtly Love were believed to be in Aquitaine in France in the 12th century and spread to other European countries. The art of Medieval Courtly Love was practised in English courts from the 1300's to the 1500's. During this period of time marriages were arranged and had little to do with love. A successful marriage was perceived as one that brought material advantages to the participants and their families. As love was clearly unrelated to marriage the requirement for romance could be gained outside marriage - as long as the rules relating to chastity and fidelity were strictly adhered to.

So this is how it got started. I strongly believe this does not justify it, by the way.

Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere are a primary example of courtly love.

Here are the rules, by the way, for those interested in this revolting courtly law.

1. Marriage should not be a deterrent to love.

2. Love cannot exist in the individual who cannot be jealous.

3. A double love cannot obligate an individual.

4. Love constantly waxes and wanes.

5. That which is not given freely by the object of one's love loses its savor.

6. It is necessary for a male to reach the age of maturity in order to love.

7. A lover must observe a two-year widowhood after his beloved's death.

8. Only the most urgent circumstances should deprive one of love.

9. Only the insistence of love can motivate one to love.

10. Love cannot coexist with avarice.

11. A lover should not love anyone who would be an embarrassing marriage choice.

12. True love excludes all from its embrace but the beloved.

13. Public revelation of love is deadly to love in most instances.

14. The value of love is commensurate with its difficulty of attainment.

15. The presence of one's beloved causes palpitation of the heart.

16. The sight of one's beloved causes palpitations of the heart.

17. A new love brings an old one to a finish.

18. Good character is the one real requirement for worthiness of love.

19. When love grows faint its demise is usually certain.

20. Apprehension is the constant companion of true love.

21. Love is reinforced by jealousy.

22. Suspicion of the beloved generates jealousy and therefore intensifies love.

23. Eating and sleeping diminish greatly when one is aggravated by love.

24. The lover's every deed is performed with the thought of his beloved in mind.

25. Unless it please his beloved, no act or thought is worthy to the lover.

26. Love is powerless to hold anything from love.

27. There is no such thing as too much of the pleasure of one's beloved.

28. Presumption on the part of the beloved causes suspicion in the lover.

29. Aggravation of excessive passion does not usually afflict the true lover.

30. Thought of the beloved never leaves the true lover.

31. Two men may love one woman or two women one man.

Um...I have just been even more disgusted by this Courtly Love thing...........there should be a sick face....

*chuckles* Ok. I know they're bad, but...reading through those rules...I chuckled at a few of them. They're so ridiculous sometimes and so cliche and so obviously clueless as to what REAL love is they're almost comical.


Anywho, re-reading this thread I realized I have the opposite of courtly love in one of my stories. Wives in court are fully expected to at least appear faithful to their husbands. But their husbands generally have open affairs with numerous girlfriends.

One of my more minor characters has a husband like this, and she is extremely cynical and bitter.

Good point, Willow--it's really such a ridiculous mimicry of true love when held up to the light. *shakes head sadly*

Ooh, that's interesting! The opposite of courtly love, I suppose, is just as bad, though

Honestly, this system is not all that much different than our own culture. We recoil from it, but people live this today.

You are right! They really do.

It is very sad in practice.

People live in what seems like even worse sin today, to me. But every sin is missing the mark--every sin is equally horrible and detestable, whether it's a lie or disobeying your parents today, or this "courtly love" a thousand years ago.

Yes, sin is sin, in any time period.

Willow pointed me back to this (old) thread in light of my latest blog post and I realized that I'd posted on it. I have no memory of that.

Anyways, I'm poking around for some questions, since my love of knighthood and chivalry is on the line Surely courtly love wasn't the only love around during this time? Surely just as kinghts swore fealty to Christ (and abused that), they could swear fealty to a lady, and have it be just and true and good?

I'm not necessarily trying to play devil's advocate here: courtly love looks a lot like modern love, and I don't doubt it existed. What I'm asking is if there was other, nobler, and truer stuff around also

Andrew

But of course there was, Andrew dear! What the world does is not done by all, you know. Courtly love was the prevailing practice of the day, but I am sure there were many men and women who did not practice it, specifically among those removed from court.

I certainly hope so! But because courtly love is what was written about in almost all of the literature we have from that time, it's all that we know about. *sigh* The unfairness of the records of time?

*reads topic* *ponders over the rules*

Courtly love sounds much like idolatry

I would not hesitate at portraying courtly love in a novel, simply because it would provide an incredibly complex web of relationships. If you think about it, courtly love would have to do something to the heart of those who practiced it, as well as those who suffered indirectly from it. Depending on the character and personality of the courtly lover, it would complicate relationships, cause confusion in the heart and mind, and ultimately hinder the ability of the courtly lover to give themself... to really love.

So, I would portray it. It would probably form a significant part of the plot. But in writing about it I would would contrast it to real love and show its weakness, its contradictions, and the way it tampers with, and ultimately doesn't satisfy, the human heart.

That would definitely work very well in a plot, Flavia. *Nods*

Agreed. I wonder how it would work in a crossover scifi or possibly steampunk story? *ponders* It'd be weird...but I love weirdness

I think it would work well.

Yes. Based on my reading of the first or second chapter of C.S. Lewis's book The Allegory of Love (one of the first two dealt with the development of "courtly love" and the other with the development of allegory as a literary form, but I can never remember which came first---I highly recommend the book, by the way), it was---at least at its worst---sort of a fusion of idolatry and adultery.

That's interesting, kingjon... and I haven't read The Allegory of Love.

Thanks for the recommendation! CS Lewis was definitely an eminent Medieval scholar. I vastly enjoyed his "The Discarded Image," which also explains some of the Medieval worldview, especially as it pertains to literature.

(And by the way, as to your description, that sounds disgusting. Those knights in shining armor were definitely not such shining examples at all.)

Hi Sienna

Nice to see you here too

I've glanced through some of the comments here about courtly love, and thought I'd share some observations from my studies. This is a topic I researched in some depth as it is one of the main themes running throughout my medieval fantasy novel, 'A Knight from Dein.'

In its pure form, I do not think of courtly love as being immoral or against the principles of God's kingdom, rather, it is so alien to what we are used to in Western culture that it is a hard concept to see from the perspective of our medieval ancestors. I'll try to explain it as I learnt/see it.

I think of courtly love as a non-sexual, innocent infatuation - much like a primary school boy has of the prettiest girl in his class, or a junior high school boy has of the youngest female teacher. In this context it has no lustful element and is not adulterous in nature - rather, it can be thought of as being pure and innocent. It is hard to us to imagine, because apart from the examples I gave above, there is almost nothing like it in our Western society. (A society that equates sex with love - an concept absent in many cultures.) I read of a knight who saw the lady who was the object of his courtly love from across a market place, and his pulse quickening and he become bashful and shy - very much like an innocent crush.

I am not saying that all knights were so noble, many who did not so wholly embrace the ideals of courtly love would have been typical lustful, sex driven males. But even so, in the case of the objects of their courtly lover, due to the communal medieval lifestyle of nobles and ladies, there would have been virtually no opportunities to commit adultery.

So I fully believe that there would have been those knights who pursued courtly love in purity and innocence. They were not 'enslaved' to their ladies nor in 'bondage' to them by today's understandings, but through the dictates of love. More specifically, they would live to bring honor and glory to their lady, they would seek to achieve great feats of bravery in battle so that troubadours would sing of these exploits to their lady while she sat in her castle, rarely ever seeing him, but always wanting to hear of him. Tolkein showed such a love in 'The Lord of the Rings,' in the way that the dwarf Gimli was so smitten with the Lady Galadriel, even to the point of defending her name.

We must also remember that in medieval times, the nobles' marriages were almost always arranged, frequently from birth. It was not uncommon for their ages to differ greatly, for example, I read of a teenage girl marrying a 40ish year old man. All marriages were arranged to either further a family's social status, or increase their lands, to cement an alliance, to end a feud, and so on.

It was therefore no surprise that a common saying in the middle ages was, "Everyone knows there can be no love between a man and his wife."

Regards
Peter

Peter (great to see you here too, by the way!), you raised some really interesting thoughts about courtly love. It definitely seems to have been pure/innocent in many ways. Personally, though, I'm still put off by the idea that these knights loved married ladies, which seems entirely unbiblical to me. I'm curious now, though - did courtly love come up in your story? If so, how did you portray it?