One of the comments I had on the first draft of my fantasy-historical novel Peter's Angel was that the whipping could be better described. In other words, the reader was wondering how much the victim was injured. Did they bruise? Bleed? Etc.

It occurred to me that I didn't really know what kind of damage a whipping does to the human body. Does anyone have any medical details on this, or know of a resource where I can get first-hand accounts or accurate details?

I assume the style of the whip makes a big difference. In my story we have a basic whip made out of a cord (I'm assuming leather, but I don't specify). Beatings would be about 20 lashes. What kind of damage would that to do someone's skin? They would be wearing a plain shirt, but no coat or anything else. What if the person were beaten three days in a row? At what point would blood be drawn? Is 20 realistic for a beating? Is that moderate or severe on the general scale? I'm guessing, since the Bible limits whippings to 40 stripes, 20 is probably moderate.

Also, although I hate any ideas to the contrary... historically, is it realistic to whip someone with their shirt on? Can I get away with that easily?

*Raises hand* That reader would be me.

I'll be watching this thread too, since I have characters who have been whipped before, and could also use some information on this topic.

I don't have any citings of websites to give you, but I'm writing a HisFic/fantasy series that involves whippings as well as a modern book that involves beatings.

Based upon some research on torture and history (dad swears that our IP addresses are on the FBI's watchlist because of some of my research ), along with common sense and having an ex-EMT for a dad and a former x-ray tech/receptionist for a grandmother, I've been writing about beatings and haven't, as of yet, had anybody complain that they seemed inacurate.

As to being whipped with a shirt on, I think that's possible but mostly for women and girls. Men and boys would be, I believe, stripped of their shirt unless it was a spur-of-the-moment flogging.

20 sounds mild for a whipping but, too, what is the age of the character being whipped? A child or an elderly person would probably get less, while a teenager/adult would probably get more. Three days in a row sounds logical depending on the circumstances surrounding the punishment.

Blood draw probably would depend upon the force being exerted as well as the sort of whip. A Cat-O'-Nine-Tails will draw blood a LOT faster than a "normal" whip. Something small like a riding crop wouldn't likely do much more than bruise. Slaves in the antebellum South were often left with horrible scarring due to beatings, and if they were scarred, that means the skin was broken which means they bled.
Personally, I don't draw much, if any, blood in my books if just a few strikes are involved. A full-blown beating, though, yeah. Definetly blood. It usually happens a few minutes into the flogging. I would assume that blood would start coming around strike five...but again, it's all pretty circumstancial.

I'm sorry I don't have any links or citings for you These are all (semi)educated guesses based on my writing/research/observational experience and I hope they are somewhat helpful.

Well, I guess I have a question, before I answer the question. Are you having a stereotypical slave master doing the beatings? Or is this a more of a typical historic slave master?

Lady InkSword, that was very helpful! Some good guidelines to build off of. I'm going to process that information and ponder what would fit the essence of the story...



A cross, I think. Do you remember a few months ago where I talked about how I was handling slaves in Peter's Angel? I have house and field slaves, which are treated very well - basically average low-class citizens that are told where to work rather than having a free economy. But I also have the mine slaves, which are supervised by an impersonal overseer without much input from their wealthy master. The commander (overseer) doesn't pick on anybody specifically, but he's methodical and concerned only with quotas. You don't make enough to keep up with his schedule, he whips you. If you fail again after 3 whippings, he kills you.

So I am fine with him tending more towards the unreasonable stereotypical side, because he will be sharply contrasted with the way the average master treats workers. The mines are extreme, an exception to the rule, and somewhat temporal. They're newly discovered, and the idea is just to mine them until they're dry and then move on.

Additionally, basically all of the mine workers are prisoners of war. They were "kidnapped" and relocated, which is unusual for slaves in this country, because they fought back when the country attempted to gain control of their land. I think I'm going to play up that POW aspect, so that should help.

Additionally, I'm considering playing up the fact that the wealthy owner wouldn't approve of the mine conditions, if he knew. He just doesn't, and doesn't have reason to believe anything's wrong. He trusts his supervisor and only pays attention to the numbers.

What do you think? And how much would I have to bribe you to get you to read the slavery passages after I revise them? (Only halfway kidding here...)

Okay, that's what I needed to know. Yes, I remember you and I talking about that.

In that case, you would have a heavier beating, but the overseer would probably not draw blood. Think about it. If they are beaten to the point where their ability to work goes down, he has shot himself in the foot. His quota goes down, not up. So I doubt he would use anything that would break the skin. Infection can end up a problem, at which point he has an even bigger mess on his hands. Marks, however, would be very reasonable.

*chuckles at the bribing * I might be able to consider reading it.

Oh, excellent. That was just the concrete information I needed to know. You're so wonderful. That works perfectly for the story and will have the right "feel." Basically, keep the whipping moderate enough that it hurts but doesn't cause lasting damage. It's just pain - incentive to work harder.

How many lashes would be reasonable, given that information, then? Am I realistic in saying it's fine to do it shirt-on since we are only going for pain, not physical damage? Is a basic leather cord the right kind of whip for that amount of pain?

So, some bruises, some soreness, some swollen marks... but blood is unlikely. Would it be reasonable to say that someone who was whipped multiple times in a row bled a little, from irritated skin perhaps? Just trying to decide if that would be reasonable from a medical standpoint so I know whether or not to cut it out of the scene, or leave it in for the effect. Would it be reasonable to say that the overseer would whip someone more heavily if he was frustrated with them and considering removing them entirely?

Oh, oh! I'll talk to you when I'm closer to having a revised version.

Ah... so this just occurred to me, kind of out of the blue. If you were the overseer, would you whip the slave in front of the others? Right now I have it being in a separate room, for no particular reason, but it just occurred to me that it might be more effective to change that.

::pops in::



If I was the overseer, I would definitely whip him in front of the others, as an example. However, you mentioned the fact that the wealthy owner would not be pleased to learn how his slaves are being treated, so if the overseer was paranoid about him finding out, he might whip him it privately. Especially if he was extra angry at the slave and didn't want anyone tattling about his brutality.

On another note, if I was the slave, I would rather be whipped in front of everyone else than alone.

As I am thinking about it, I think it probably would be better to have it in front of the others. It would probably be more effective, but it was good the way you have it, too.

Great insights, everyone! I've been mulling over this, and I think the changes I'm going to make are going to fix some plot issues I have. Nice how that works out.



Why is that?

I like how I have it, too, Katherina. And if I make it public it will mess up the way Edwin reacts to Galen getting whipped... but it might be a worthy change.

*patiently waits for Airianna to return*

I agree that the overseer is more likely to do it publicly than privately, unless there's some kind of personal vendetta going on (though even with that it could still be public).

Usually when trying to assert authority with punishment, you do it publicly. Convince everyone else they do NOT want to cross him.

Good, glad that was helpful. And yes, exactly, to your last sentence.




I think 20 good hits with a leather strap is probably the most effective tool to use. Leather straps bruise the skin, welt the skin, and can even draw blood under the surface of the skin (kinda like a blood blister), but they do not tear the skin, as a general rule.

Shirt on is possible if you have a spur of the moment whipping, but if your overseer is premeditating this, and takes him away to a room, he would have the man’s shirt removed. Plus, one of the reason shirts were not left on is because the master provides and pays for the clothes on the back of their slaves. Thus, whipping or beating with the shirt on would cost him money. Like I said, though, if this is a spur of the moment, in the heat of a temper kind of beating, the Overseer probably would not waste the time to strip his shirt.





Blood is possible if the skin tears. Like I said above, blood can rise to the surface of the skin. So the slaves back could look red and bloody, without actually being bloody. A more grueling whipping would certainly draw blood, though.

Yes, if he intended to kill off a slave (which is very dangerous for an overseer to do, by the way, even if they are under a cruel master, because the masters decide if a slave is no longer worth feeding, clothing, and housing) then the beating would be intensified.




I can actually see a whipping going both ways. He could do it out in front of everyone. Or he could take him off on his own. He would have to have a reason, though. Some Plantations actually had a whipping room reserved for whippings. Course, the reason for this was because they did not want to make public spectacles of their slaves. Many Masters, as I told you before, did not rule through fear. Thus, if a slave warranted a whipping, they took them aside, similar to a parent disciplining a child.


Oh, and as a point of interest, Cat-of-nine-tails were broken down into three, six, nine, and twelve straps. The amount of straps used depended on the severity of the whipping. These whips were no joke. On the tip of every strap was a lead tip embedded with nails, glass, and bone. Now, according to Jewish Law, 39 whips from the Cat-of-nine-tails was the limit. It I also poignant to note that a good number of people who endured this whipping died before the limit was reached. In fact, this is what the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible says on page 538:

Thanks for taking the time to write up a detailed response, Airianna! Yes, I think about 20 lashes with a regular leather strap should suit my plot purposes very well. Definitely not doing that cat 'o nine tails thing. Way too severe for my situation. However, that's good information to know, should I or anyone else ever have cause to use such a weapon, so thanks for posting that!

I am debating about how my slave quarters are arranged. Right now I have what is basically a whipping room (although they store other stuff in there as well), but I might be changing the layout of my mines and quarters, so the area for whipping might move. I'm also debating about how much authority my overseer has - or, more importantly, how much his master knows. That's going to effect how I handle everything, so I'll probably start a separate thread for that...

See, shirtless men is one of my pet peeves. And if I brought it in, it would be the only mention of immodesty in the entire book, which might be kind of jarring. So once I figure out how everything is structured, I'll decide. I might just not mention it one way or the other.

Irregardless, I have sufficient information to decide a reasonable method of whipping. Once I solidify my slave situation, I can adjust the details of the whipping to match.

Thank you so much, everyone! (And I once had a penpal who liked to complain that the government was going to intercept our letters and try us for talking about killing people (book characters)... )

I'm glad it was helpful and you are figuring out how you want to portray this scene.

If you need any more help on the subject, I shall be around.

Well, then, if you don't mind I've got a few questions.

Do you know how many lashes it would take if the overseer actually wanted to draw blood? And with what kind of whip? I think (though go correct me if I am wrong) That there were some overseers who did want to injure their slaves more to A. Punish them for doing something like trying to escape, and B. Keep then from escaping again for a time with being injured. That's just the impression I am getting from some standpoints. I can change things around in the next draft if needed.

Of course I do not mind!!!

The thing to remember about overseers is that they do not own the slaves. So most overseers would not have mistreated the slaves, because the treatment of the slaves, and the amount of work they produced, were what allowed him to keep his job.

Now, if you are dealing with an overseer like Aubrey is, one whose employer (the master) does not supervise his operation and visits once or twice a year, then yes, he could want to draw blood and beat a slave mercilessly. Course, he would have to be a cruel man, and such an overseer would be in the minority, as I said before. Yes it can happen, but there are a lot of things that would have to factor in to allow him to treat the slaves on a large plantation this way.

If he were to actually want to draw blood, a corded whip would be the easiest way to do so. That can tear the flesh, when used vigorously (which is implied in the kind of whipping you are talking about). A riding crop can draw blood as well, but you would have to hit someone quite a few times before it would wear down the skin enough, I believe.

Injuring a slave was not common practice. After all, slaves were part of both the Master’s, and the Overseer’s livelihood. Those that did treat their slaves poorly would most likely not injure them to the point where they could not work, thus they could still technically run away. An intense beating that got the point of their mastery across, is more likely. An Overseer like you are describing would want to cause horrific pain, but pain that they could work through.

*realizes she never replied to this* Oops!

Thank you for the information. It looks like things in this part of my story are possible then. (I'll be portraying other kinds of overseers later in the book too, the nicer ones).
Okay, I'll be doing some changing in the nest draft them. I think it won't be too big of an issue to fix. If they were whipped enough to draw blood and injure them, would they still take just a couple days off of working to recover a bit or not?

Right... and slaves weren't cheap either. In America, they would go for about $2,000 apiece...

Is that number in modern USD? I need to price a slave in my book, so a rough idea would be very helpful.

I do too. To keep this thread on topic, we can talk about that here.

Sounds good, Azzie.

To me, if you have a cruel task master, he would cause enough injury that they could still work through it. I wouldn't want them laid up for a few days. It seems crueler to make them work through that pain.

Aubrey, I will answer your question in the slave market thread.

No, that's not modern currency. That's 1860 dollars. Which would be many times more expensive today.

*pops in* I've skimmed the responses, and I pretty much agree with everyone else. However I thought I might mention that in the Napoleonic naval times, I think two dozen lashes was the standard punishment. So maybe rounding up the 20 to 24 could be an idea. Just a thought!

Thanks for that, Aussie! Good info.

*Forgot to reply to this* Yes, that would seem like what this particular Overseer would do, and should still fit into my plot in the next draft. Thanks, Airi!

Hmm, I have my MC get whipped in one of my books. I didn't mention how many lashes because I didn't know how many was safe... Do you think rubbing vinegar into the cuts for extra pain is realistic?

Vinegar is very healing...

As a side note, I think you can easily get away without saying how many times someone is lashed.

Hrm, I was thinking it would make it sting more....


Very true! *Makes note*

One of my family members was instructed by the doctor to soak their foot in vinegar-water solution. That was either for fungi or ingrown toenail... or both... can't remember. *is now curious about the medical properties of vinegar*

I agree, on the lashes, but it's good to have a vague idea so you don't make it drag on too long (or too short) to be realistic.

Apple cider vinegar is especially good, but that's actually drinking it (:P), not pouring it over an open wound... Would rubbing salt do much damage?

I seem to remember reading something (I don't remember the period context, though I assume 18th/19th century) about salt water making lashes more painful. Which would match up with the phrase about salt in wounds...

I believe it has to do with the concentration of the salt. I am told by my mother (a former RN), that a light salt-water solution can actually be helpful in some applications (soaking feet was the subject at hand, I believe). But I think a higher salt concentration is definitely painful. I seem to recall hearing that, during a Roman scourging (which are extremely nasty - the kind people don't always survive), they would dump a bucket of salt water on the victim if they passed out, to wake them up again.

Ooh, nice and painful.

Vinegar would not hurt for long. Like I said, it is very healing. Salt is also healing, but if rubbed in the wounds, it would certainly increase pain, for multiple reasons. And think about it. Rub abrasive salt over a tender wound and you have a recipe for extreme pain

*Missed some stuff in here*


Yes, I think vinegar can be healing, and some salt too. I had a cat once who did something to his paw (I can remember what) and we had to soak it in warm salt water. 'Twas not fun for the poor cat. But his paw did get better.

I remember something along the lines of that too, Nariam. It was about 1800s ish. I think it was that the application of salt on the whip lashes would be painful, but would help. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it was what I gathered from the book.

You guys should drag Andrew in here. He's written a scene in which he rubbed salt into an MC's wounds. It made the experience more painful for the MC, and he implied that the salt would prevent infection. Maybe he knows some scientific stuffage.

Ooh, whipping...
This reminds be of Brisingr, where Roran gets whipped, I think that it was a bit over done, I'm not trying to say that it doesn't hardly hurt, but I've accidentally whipped myself with a bull whip hard, and it hurt, but not to the point that I wanted to scream, if you see what I mean.

::shudder::

As for salt water/vinegar in lash wounds - I've read a testimony of a slave girl who went through that. She passed from the pain during the whipping and woke up when they were washing her down with "pickle" which I would take to either be salt water or vinegar.

Ah, yes, pickling would hurt. It has different components to it than just vinegar, salt being a primary ingredient.

I was told to look up this thread for my current work in progress, where one of the protagonists is severely whipped. However, the situation is a little different than most in that the person order the whipping is not only very sadistic, but doesn't really need him to work--he only wants to break his will. He basically just wants to see him hurt and broken. So injuring him is no problem. I want to draw blood to show the character's strength of will, but I want him to be able to barely function for awhile after the whipping. So... basically I want to draw blood, but not so that he's torn up all over the place like with a cat o' nine. Any suggestions?

Quick clarification... you want to draw blood, but not break the skin? Or did I get something confused?

I want to break the skin and draw blood, just not cut him down to the bone or anything like that. He needs to bleed and be in bad pain without being in real danger of death or anything.

Oh yes, that makes much more sense. Got it.

There are 3 basic types of whips, all of which would do what you desire. It’s not until you get to the more brutal type of whips that you cut down to the bone without much force (techincally, if you hit someone long enough, you could cut down to the bone even with a basic whip, but it will take a while). So, your options are as follows:

• Bull Whip
• Stock Whip
• Signal Whip (Single tail)

Bull whip: Bull whips are single, long whips, with a wooden handle and rawhide core. They may be 6-12' long braided from top grain leather. They are also the whips used most often by movie characters such as Indiana Jones & Catwoman. They are built for durability, reliability and to be easily carried in saddle bags. The defining feature of a bullwhip and the thing that sets it apart from a stock whip is that the handle and the thong are made from the same plait. They are essentially one unit.

Stock whip: The classic Australian whip. It is usually made from Kangaroo leather now a days, but can be made from any type of leather. The whip is named based off of its purpose, as it has been most commonly used to control stock or cattle.

Signal whip (Single tail): These are the same in construction as Bull whips, but are shorter, usually 3-5'. They are short enough to use in enclosed spaces and are easy to crack. The longer the whip is, the more difficult it will be to crack.

Any of these will cut skin and draw blood. Cutting down to the bone could only be accomplished by purposing to do so.

Thank you very muchly for that, Airi!

No problem. Happy to help.