Holy Worlds Christian Forum :: View topic - Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?

Much as I hate to admit it, *Eragon* does the magic-power-draining very well.

(Basically, Eragon gets tired when he uses magic). But what I really hated was how he ALWAYS used magic. He didn't even have to be a good sword-fighter because he was so great at magic. And really, in the battles, it didn't say the effects of his magic-using. If he only gets tired from magic when he is outside of battles that's pretty convenient. But I'll stop ranting.

eruheran

There is literally NOTHING more annoying than an overpowered anything.

A situation where magic was banished/locked-down by some method would be intriguing as well in such a situation, since now the people wouldn't be able to use magic anymore and don't know how to do things without it...

Aratrea wrote:

Sounds like a dystopian allegory for technology.

"Magic" must either A. come from some form of energy within the body. B. Or exact some toll on the character. Using these two methods your "magic" Shouldn't get out of hand.

...but if you're going to use it, you need to make sure that it isn't the magic or the technology that wins in the end, but the people using it.

Author:	Varon [ July 24th, 2010, 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
The main reason I've never bothered to read Harry Potter and the percy Jackson books is because of the large amounts of magic and supernatural power. It seems almost anti-climatic to break a precious vase that belongs to a character's mother, and instead of having to creatively solve that issue, the characters use magic to fix it. Or a battle, instead of hacking at each other with sharp pieces of metal, they throw fireballs and such at each other. It appears that magic makes things to easy.

Author:	InTheLion'sPaws [ July 24th, 2010, 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Yes, yes, yes, I totally agree with you. But I beg to differ on the Harry Potter issue, he has many troubles with the magic he is supposed to be learning, and on many occasions has to stay up all night just to master a spell, even simple ones, and the magic in HP is in no way foolproof. But yes, I agree with you. It annoys me to no end when the magic is just a simple way to solve a problem, there's no challenge, there's no thought needed, there's no substance. You can't respect the character, because he/she just needed to say a few Super Speshul Words and Bam! problem solved. (The Percy Jackson books kinda fail. I agree with you on that)

Author:	Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ July 24th, 2010, 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I consider using excessive magic that is just as magical in the fantasy world as in our world a deus-ex-machina. It stifles creativity, like you said. That being said, there are many things that some writers might call magic that can still be grafted into your story to make it interesting. For example, land-law is certain laws that are tied up into the world, making certain things happen. These events could be considered magical in our world but are part of the land-law, thus normal. Which brings me to cobha. Cobha is events that are magical in our world but are absolutely normal or everyday in your fantasy world. Though it shouldn't be overdone, cobha gives you a chance to use some magic and portraying it as normal among the inhabitants. However, even the above uses can still overuse magic. If too much magic is implemented into a story then you end up making the main character turn to magic every time there's a problem...and that's a boring story! That's why, except for land-law (object-law), I have no magic in my fantasy story. None. (Actually, when I first started writing fantasy I specifically tried to remove certain conventions/cliches from it: elves, magic, wizards, rangers and all the Tolkien stuff...just to be unique) eruheran

Author:	Varon [ July 25th, 2010, 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Yeah, I don't have any wizards or magic in my stories. Nor do I have rangers. But I do have elves who live a long time and are excellent craftsmen. Their abilities may seem magical, but it's their talents, like the cobha you were talking about. Perhaps learning magic isn't so easy, but it still takes away the adrenaline rush of a swordfight, or an archery shootout.

Author:	Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ July 26th, 2010, 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
When wizards/magicians/people with power start throwing fire balls at each other I put the book down. I can't stand fireball throwing. Levitation drives me nuts too. The one thing I hate about Star Wars was levitation. "Oh, it's a big scary battle lets throw stuff at each other. Just random... stuff. Whatever comes to hand..." I understand it can be useful on occasion, but it drives me crazy.

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Author:	Melody Kondrael [ July 26th, 2010, 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Levitation in SW was really just showing off what they were capable with in CGI/SFX. Remember that the original trilogy was pre-CGI; and the new trilogy was when CGI was so cool and new... (relatively speaking anyhow) But a lot of things in SW were just done to push technology to its limits without going over. Some stuff was a lot cooler thirty years ago than it is now. On-topic: This is one main reason why I don't use magic in stories. It's often just overused and gets really blah...

Author:	Evening L. Aspen [ July 28th, 2010, 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I suppose it all depends on what exactly your world is like. If your world (where the story takes place) has "magic", then folks are going to use it. I'll put it this way; when fighting, people are going to use whatever method of killing/injuring is most efficient and most effective. So if two wizards are trying to kill each other, they are probably not going to be using swords. That's probably not their specialty. They're going to be using "magic" against each other. Oh, and when properly done, magic does not make things easier. If the author comes up with rules and laws for the cobha/magic of the world, then there will be natural limitations and skills required to use magic. Then it doesn't become easy. In a way, it makes writing harder, because instead of copying Earth's physical laws, you have to reference your own. BUT if the author is throwing in random magic that just doesn't make sense, then I would consider that deus-ex-machina. Bad. I agree with InTheLion'sPaws: when magic requires no thought, no skill and has no challenges, it makes for a lousy story. And the overuse of even well-thought-out magic gets old after a while. When your starving hero can conjure a palace-type feast in the barren wilderness, you know you're overdoing it. To borrow a little line from one of the Harry Potter books: "But you have magic! Surely you can, well, sort this out...?" "But that's the problem; the other side has magic, too." Or something like that.

Author:	Varon [ August 3rd, 2010, 9:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
That's how I felt, but the force throw in SW wasn't that bad. The problem is, even if I do add rules and laws for magic, I'd still not use magic.

Author:	Lady Terra [ August 3rd, 2010, 9:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Well, I've never bothered to read Harry Potter, so I wouldn't know. Maybe if you created limits on your type of magic, then the characters couldn't get out of every situation by using magic. That's what I did in my story so far, and it seems to work out well

Author:	Varon [ August 3rd, 2010, 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I could, but I like them better as warriors than magicians.

Author:	Lord Kieren Mimetes [ September 6th, 2010, 7:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Yeah, I would agree, magic should never be a quick fix and it needs to cost something or have rules.

Author:	Kenton D. Long [ September 7th, 2010, 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I agree with Griffin, magic should always cost energy just like a sword fight and you must have the skill to use magic. Magic should always be a bit complicated and it should never be used to get out of a situation, it should only be used to postpone or avoid a situation, and rarely at that. Unless it is a fight, in which case you can fight with complicated magic, but doing the magic will make the character vunerable in some way. Those are some of my ideas. Hope you like them. Kenton D. Long

Author:	Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ September 7th, 2010, 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Much as I hate to admit it, Eragon does the magic-power-draining very well. (Basically, Eragon gets tired when he uses magic). But what I really hated was how he ALWAYS used magic. He didn't even have to be a good sword-fighter because he was so great at magic. And really, in the battles, it didn't say the effects of his magic-using. If he only gets tired from magic when he is outside of battles that's pretty convenient. But I'll stop ranting. eruheran

Author:	Seer of Endor [ September 7th, 2010, 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
eruheran wrote: Much as I hate to admit it, Eragon does the magic-power-draining very well. (Basically, Eragon gets tired when he uses magic). But what I really hated was how he ALWAYS used magic. He didn't even have to be a good sword-fighter because he was so great at magic. And really, in the battles, it didn't say the effects of his magic-using. If he only gets tired from magic when he is outside of battles that's pretty convenient. But I'll stop ranting. eruheran Bit off topic there, brother I see where you're coming from, but this could lead to an Eragon discussion, which isn't what this thread is about.

Author:	Reiyen [ February 20th, 2011, 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Whackemwithhammers wrote: There is literally NOTHING more annoying than an overpowered anything. While I tend to agree with you, and go to great lengths to prevent anything from being "all powerful" (in fact, nothing in my world is) I have a great fascination with all-powerful characters who are limited by their personality or mission. Gandalf the White, it appears, could have overturned Sauron by sheer might, or blown the Morannon to smithereens, but we know that he was not sent to do so. So also, I love characters that can do anything, but often times won't. Using Gandalf again, he had the ability to steal the ring from Bilbo and make that scene go by so much easier, but we also know that to do so would cause Bilbo to go insane and likely corrupt Gandalf at the same time. Characters that show restraint in consideration of others, no matter how awesomely powerful, can be very cool indeed.

Author:	Lady Eruwaedhiel [ March 15th, 2011, 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I think this topic is summed up nicely by the words of Daniel Schwabauer, the author of the Christian writing curriculum One Year Adventure Novel. I recently purchased the module for this curriculum that is geared toward Scifi and Fantasy. He defines the difference between conventional fiction and speculative fiction as "Otherness". Scifi manifests that Otherness in technology or an alteration of the physical laws. Fantasy manifests that Otherness in supernatural or an alteration of the supernatural laws. Mr. Schwabauer says that, in order for your fantasy/scifi story not to feel "cheap" (or, like you're cheating), you need to have a price for that Otherness. Think about electricity. It it no doubt a wonderful convenience and tool, but there is a price for it. You either have ugly poles and wires that you stare at all the time, or you have wires buried underground and perhaps thousands of people injured or killed by digging in the wrong places. Same way with advanced technology or magic. If you have magic that allows you to heal people, make the price so high (for instance, the healer take the injury on themselves) that the reader doesn't want the character to use it. If you have advanced technology that allows sound to pass not through the ears but through the bone, making music richer and deeper, make the price so high (for instance, it's addicting) that the reader doesn't want the character to use it. You have to make the reader hate the cost and desire the victory, so that conflict will pull at them.

Author:	Suiauthon Mimetes [ May 18th, 2012, 1:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Currently (sigh I hate having to say "currently"), I have a Dark Lord that has taken up residence in a dimension separate from the land where most of the story takes place (eh... kind of; but 'dimension' is the simplest way to put it I guess ). In order to keep the Dark Lord from subjugating their own people: some local tribes' chiefs seal the one known gateway that joins the Dark Lord's land and the "free peoples'" land. The seal is extremely powerful (perhaps landlaw... not sure yet), and the only way to unlock it is to bring the heirs of the original chiefs back to the gateway. Currently (there's that word again ), this is the only magic I have in this particular story. Is this cheating? Have I turned off you, my reader?

Author:	Timotheus [ September 7th, 2010, 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
You folks seemed to have answered well. I'd just add that magic can be just as difficult as hand to hand fighting - it requires training, concentration, execution and a risk of being outdone. If you don't like magic and just want to use warriors, just make sure you are careful not to have your character become the equivalent of a mage with unlimited magic by him being able to beat up everybody without breaking a sweat. Personally, I like magic because of how many magic systems can be made which creatively explore ways in which casting spells costs the magician. Michael Stackpole wrote a character that had his left arm wither up because of a very powerful spell he cast. Raistlin in the Dragonlance Chronicles is a classic mage who nearly died in the testing that he had to pass to become a black mage, and during the books he is just as frail physically as he is powerful magically.

Author:	Varon [ October 1st, 2010, 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I see. That makes sense. I still find it distasteful, especially since most magic is done at a distance where the enemies generally can't reach you, unless they have arrows.

Author:	Timotheus [ October 2nd, 2010, 7:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
If you have magicians casting spells across distances, then find a way for your characters to get close or make the casting over great distance something that wears them down faster.

Author:	Varon [ November 2nd, 2010, 10:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I could, I suppose.

Author:	Rachel Newhouse [ November 2nd, 2010, 11:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Even though I can (moralistically) accept "magic" when it is in a world other than our own, this is the exact reason I generally don't like it. It can seem so cheap and fake, a "quick fix" to any problem that removes all human strategy, intelligence, and endurance. It is infinitely more interesting for me to watch a normal human outsmart a mountain with his God-given wits than it is to watch a magician blast their way through it with fireballs and frogs. I think the way some authors use magic is simply bad writing. However, I agree that with some careful work and set rules, you can make "magic" feel much more realistic and interesting. I personally prefer the cobha approach over a learned art, for various reasons.

Author:	Varon [ November 2nd, 2010, 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I can too, and that's exactly my feel for it. Why read about someone torching orcs easily when you can read about a group of people struggling to win by skill of arms?

Author:	Reiyen [ December 1st, 2010, 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Even though this thread is getting older, I realized it was a very pertinent thread for me, because magic proliferates in my world. Fireballs are a common occurrence in warfare. However, I tried to counter the usual ways that this tends to cheapen everything. First off, all works of magic take "power." Everybody only has so much. Very often wizards will run out in the first few minutes of a battle. Also there is constant "preventative" magic going on. A wizard can use some of his power to stop or stall another's attempt to use magic. There is also defensive magic. Where fireballs proliferate, so may ice shields. Perhaps the most important is this: physical always trumps non-physical. The best way to undo a wizard is get close and stab him through. None of them can stop that without excessive amounts of power. Third, there are somethings that most magic kinds cannot do. Magic cannot be used to change a person's thinking. While thoughts may be inserted to another person's mind, they will always be aware of the insertion unless the one inserting it is very deceptive about the way it is done. Fourth, using magic occupies most of the user's thought. In the case of the most powerful works of magic, it will take 100% of the concentration. This answers how you can "get close" with a sword to undo a wizard. Arrows are also great for this.

Author:	Varon [ December 2nd, 2010, 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I guess it's rather irrelevant to me now, I've quit writing fantasy. Magic just feels cheap to me.

Author:	Riniel Jasmina [ December 2nd, 2010, 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
If a writer can set up some decent rules for magic then go ahead and use it but when I read work with magic in it I feel like it should just be easy so I tend to avoid it all together.

Author:	Varon [ December 3rd, 2010, 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
That's how I feel as well.

Author:	Whackem [ February 20th, 2011, 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
There is literally NOTHING more annoying than an overpowered anything. It can be hero, villain, random joe. Nothing is more destructive to the believability of a story than to have someone who could destroy the world with a flick of his wrist. I play alot of RPG's. A little magic can be fun, but when there's too much, then it's like having the cheat codes. The game loses its peril and its thrill; it becomes dull and humdrum. "Oh look here comes a collossal dragon... Bang your dead" Where's the adventure in that!?

Author:	Leandra Falconwing [ February 20th, 2011, 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I'd agree that having overpowered people can really take away the excitement. On the other hand, I don't think having a lot of magic necessarily equals overpowered. My favorite webmanga involves some very, very powerful characters. The majority of the cast can use magic. I haven't noticed it making things boring yet. (It probably helps that not all of the super powerful characters are on the same side and one of the current antagonists can nullify magic.) It's easy to make magic unbalanced, but if done well, I don't think it's the amount of magic that matters. It's all about the way it's used. My $0.02, anyway.

Author:	Lord Kieren Mimetes [ February 25th, 2011, 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I have to agree with Reiyen. Extremely powerful characters that don't use their full power, for whatever reason, are even more intriguing, in my opinion anyway.

Author:	Varon [ March 11th, 2011, 11:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
All-powerful beings (Superman, Gandalf the White, the Phantom Stranger, even my Teleporters), I agree, are fascinating when they restrain themselves and how they use their powerful. Take Superman, he only uses his power to help others and will not kill. The Phantom Stranger deals in dimensions that can't be seen on Earth. Gandalf did not use his power in actual combat, and my Teleporters are more advisers and behind the scenes. They also fight powers as strong or sometimes stronger than themselves. When characters like them restrain themselves, they're easier to believe. However, in other works, there are beings as powerful as them who use their power to lead or use their power against those who are weaker. It takes away the respect we have for them, the air of subtle mystery, and fascination. They become living nuclear weapons, too powerful to be believed. I think that was what I was trying to say earlier.

Author:	Varon [ March 15th, 2011, 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
I wish I could do One Year Adventure Novel. What you're saying is very true, and I agree. As I think someone famous once said, "Great power comes with great cost." Or maybe I said it. Essentially, too much reliance on magic or technology without a high cost is cheap.

Author:	Varon [ May 18th, 2012, 8:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
Nope. I think that works.

Author:	Riniel Jasmina [ April 25th, 2013, 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
What would be interesting, would have magic be cheating to such an extent that it's the only way people do anything anymore because it's so easy. Then they either forget because it's been so long, or because when you learn to do something magically, you forget how to do it without magic.

Author:	Varon [ April 25th, 2013, 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
That would be very interesting.

Author:	Mistress Kidh [ April 26th, 2013, 4:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
And then it would be weird if these un-magical people come along and the magic people are all confused by how they do things and the un-magic people actually have an edge on them....

Author:	Aratrea [ April 26th, 2013, 8:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is using excessive amounts of magic cheating?
A situation where magic was banished/locked-down by some method would be intriguing as well in such a situation, since now the people wouldn't be able to use magic anymore and don't know how to do things without it...