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Where the sun never sets...
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Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 15th, 2012, 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Where the sun never sets...

I originally planned my fantasy novel to take place in a world that rotated on its side, causing the sun to remain frozen in the sky on one side, turning it into a desert wasteland, and leaving the other side a dark, frozen arctic world. There would be a small strip of land around the equator that would be perpetual morning on one side, and perpetual twilight on the other side, leaving it the only area on the planet that was somewhat inhabitable.

Only problem with that is the science of the whole shebang--a planet rotating on its side would have all kinds of other problems as well, including extreme climate changes and wacked-out gravity--stuff that makes it kind of impossible for life anywhere on the planet, forget the strip around the equator. :/

But since that's such an integral part of the story, I was really hoping I could still find a way to make this work. Anybody have any ideas or suggestions for creating a world where "the sun never sets" without totally contradicting science?

Author:  Arien [ January 15th, 2012, 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Actually, if you just want the hot side, cold side, and little band of habitable, then you might want to just have the planet be tidally locked, which means it takes as long to rotate as it does to orbit the star, so that the same side is always facing the star.

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 15th, 2012, 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Arien, Son of Bob wrote:
Actually, if you just want the hot side, cold side, and little band of habitable, then you might want to just have the planet be tidally locked, which means it takes as long to rotate as it does to orbit the star, so that the same side is always facing the star.


AHA. That's an awesome idea. Thanks a bunch! *goes to research*

Author:  Varon [ January 15th, 2012, 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

That's what the moon does.

Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ January 19th, 2012, 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

That is a very intriguing idea! I wonder if...somehow the uninhabitable areas could be navigated, sort of like astronauts did on the moon. Fascinating... ^_^

Andrew

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 19th, 2012, 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Andrew wrote:
That is a very intriguing idea! I wonder if...somehow the uninhabitable areas could be navigated, sort of like astronauts did on the moon. Fascinating... ^_^

Andrew


Thanks! Yeah, I've actually changed the world to make the "sunny side" less uninhabitable. It's still a hell to live in, but people do--in fact, most of the population does, since the Monarchist-dictatorship that rules the country has kept news of the equator strip a carefully-guarded secret. I'm still trying to figure out who does live along the equator, though--a privileged upper class that has been "hidden", for some reason, maybe.

Author:  Aragorn [ January 19th, 2012, 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Fidle wrote:
I've actually changed the world to make the "sunny side" less uninhabitable. It's still a hell to live in, but people do--in fact, most of the population does, since the Monarchist-dictatorship that rules the country has kept news of the equator strip a carefully-guarded secret. I'm still trying to figure out who does live along the equator, though--a privileged upper class that has been "hidden", for some reason, maybe.

That sounds like a good idea.

Author:  cephron [ January 19th, 2012, 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

A tidally locked world is a fun idea! :)

On a tide-locked world, I suspect you might need an active agency or some cobha to ensure that the day side--and even the twilight belt--gets any water at all. Because just as the day side would be perpetually blazing, the night side would be perpetually frozen. So any evaporated water would condense and precipitate as snow as soon as it blows to the night side, and get trapped there as ice. (And then the ice would never melt; it never gets any sun) So there needs to be something keeping water in the atmosphere.

Remembering scenes on Ryloth in the YJK series reminded me of this. I'm not sure their make-believe about Ryloth is all very consistent, but they do postulate "heat storms" which make their way onto the night side, boiling water into the atmosphere. Personally, I don't think this would work--the water would just end up getting recycled until it condensed out of range of the heat storms, and then be stuck. Perhaps ice-mining could be a major industry in your world? (But then you would have to explain how life survived before the industry got on its feet)
I think the easiest way to solve the problem would be to establish a reason why it's not always below freezing on the night side...

Author:  Varon [ January 19th, 2012, 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Double suns!

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 23rd, 2012, 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Yeah, I'm sure I'll have to employ some cobha... Good point about the water. ;)
I actually want it to be always below-freezing on the night side... which is kind of a problem. :/ But I'll figger something out...
Thanks for the thoughts!

cephron wrote:
A tidally locked world is a fun idea! :)

On a tide-locked world, I suspect you might need an active agency or some cobha to ensure that the day side--and even the twilight belt--gets any water at all. Because just as the day side would be perpetually blazing, the night side would be perpetually frozen. So any evaporated water would condense and precipitate as snow as soon as it blows to the night side, and get trapped there as ice. (And then the ice would never melt; it never gets any sun) So there needs to be something keeping water in the atmosphere.

Remembering scenes on Ryloth in the YJK series reminded me of this. I'm not sure their make-believe about Ryloth is all very consistent, but they do postulate "heat storms" which make their way onto the night side, boiling water into the atmosphere. Personally, I don't think this would work--the water would just end up getting recycled until it condensed out of range of the heat storms, and then be stuck. Perhaps ice-mining could be a major industry in your world? (But then you would have to explain how life survived before the industry got on its feet)
I think the easiest way to solve the problem would be to establish a reason why it's not always below freezing on the night side...

Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ January 24th, 2012, 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Fidle wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure I'll have to employ some cobha... Good point about the water. ;)
I actually want it to be always below-freezing on the night side... which is kind of a problem. :/ But I'll figger something out...
Thanks for the thoughts!

cephron wrote:
On a tide-locked world, I suspect you might need an active agency or some cobha to ensure that the day side--and even the twilight belt--gets any water at all. Because just as the day side would be perpetually blazing, the night side would be perpetually frozen. So any evaporated water would condense and precipitate as snow as soon as it blows to the night side, and get trapped there as ice. (And then the ice would never melt; it never gets any sun) So there needs to be something keeping water in the atmosphere.

Remembering scenes on Ryloth in the YJK series reminded me of this. I'm not sure their make-believe about Ryloth is all very consistent, but they do postulate "heat storms" which make their way onto the night side, boiling water into the atmosphere. Personally, I don't think this would work--the water would just end up getting recycled until it condensed out of range of the heat storms, and then be stuck. Perhaps ice-mining could be a major industry in your world? (But then you would have to explain how life survived before the industry got on its feet)
I think the easiest way to solve the problem would be to establish a reason why it's not always below freezing on the night side...


Maybe something happens inside the planet? You could enginer a cobha that lets heat travel through the planet from the hot side to the cold side, melt ice there, and bring back water to be evaporated on the hot side. It would be hard to make work, but would be cool if done right. :D

Another idea (and probably one much easier to implement) would be to use animals and/or plants to move water from from the cold side to the hot side.

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 25th, 2012, 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Suiauthon wrote:
Maybe something happens inside the planet? You could enginer a cobha that lets heat travel through the planet from the hot side to the cold side, melt ice there, and bring back water to be evaporated on the hot side. It would be hard to make work, but would be cool if done right. :D

Another idea (and probably one much easier to implement) would be to use animals and/or plants to move water from from the cold side to the hot side.


That's a really good idea--especially the plant/animal one. I'm going to go sit down with a sketchpad and see if I an figure out how to make that work. Any suggestions?

Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ January 26th, 2012, 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Perhaps a bird that lives in the hot side requires water to make an oasis like home (underground?) to attract a mate. He could travel to the ice side, cut out ice chuncks with their beak and return the chuncks to their home in order to collect the water for his survival, his family's survival, and some extra for the ecosystem.

And of course you would include predators, food for the bird, etc... if you choose to use it. :D

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ January 26th, 2012, 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Suiauthon wrote:
Perhaps a bird that lives in the hot side requires water to make an oasis like home (underground?) to attract a mate. He could travel to the ice side, cut out ice chuncks with their beak and return the chuncks to their home in order to collect the water for his survival, his family's survival, and some extra for the ecosystem.

And of course you would include predators, food for the bird, etc... if you choose to use it. :D


That's a good thought... I'd have to consider the number of birds it would actually take to do something like that, but it's a really good idea. :D

Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ January 27th, 2012, 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

The birds don't have to be the only creature to do that. Make the birds' lives one of many processes that occurs to bring water to the desert. :D

Author:  cephron [ January 29th, 2012, 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

Ok, so I asked about this on a physics forum, and here's my (medium-confidence) interpretation of the information that I gleaned:

1) If the planet has oceans in proportions roughly the same as earth's, the diffusion of heat through the ocean might be enough to prevent the ocean on the night side from freezing, although the landmasses would probably be mostly ice. This would solve the problem of water scarcity--in fact, it makes it quite probable that atmospheric water would be abundant, since the ocean in the middle of the day side would always be boiling/near boiling.

2) If the planet's oceans are too small to be self-sustaining in distributing heat, the water would end up frozen on the night side--but there would still always be a small amount of water in the atmosphere. Ice sublimes even at -133 degrees celsius, so there would be water vapor in the air--and the difference in temperature between the day and night sides would cause a huge Hadley cell to form around the terminator, circulating dry/moist air between the day and night sides. It would be a desert world for certain, but pockets of life might exist where mountains and other geological features cause water to condense in the twilight belt. People could collect water using wind traps like in Frank Herbert's Dune, or by directly mining ice on the night side.

If either of these options works for your world setting, perhaps you could get by without the need for climate-sustaining cobha.

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ February 3rd, 2012, 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

cephron wrote:
Ok, so I asked about this on a physics forum, and here's my (medium-confidence) interpretation of the information that I gleaned:

1) If the planet has oceans in proportions roughly the same as earth's, the diffusion of heat through the ocean might be enough to prevent the ocean on the night side from freezing, although the landmasses would probably be mostly ice. This would solve the problem of water scarcity--in fact, it makes it quite probable that atmospheric water would be abundant, since the ocean in the middle of the day side would always be boiling/near boiling.

2) If the planet's oceans are too small to be self-sustaining in distributing heat, the water would end up frozen on the night side--but there would still always be a small amount of water in the atmosphere. Ice sublimes even at -133 degrees celsius, so there would be water vapor in the air--and the difference in temperature between the day and night sides would cause a huge Hadley cell to form around the terminator, circulating dry/moist air between the day and night sides. It would be a desert world for certain, but pockets of life might exist where mountains and other geological features cause water to condense in the twilight belt. People could collect water using wind traps like in Frank Herbert's Dune, or by directly mining ice on the night side.

If either of these options works for your world setting, perhaps you could get by without the need for climate-sustaining cobha.


AWESOME. Thank you, this is exactly what I need. I think I'd be too nervous to venture into the depths of a physics forum. ;)

Author:  cephron [ February 4th, 2012, 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

You're most welcome! Out of curiosity, which option do you plan to use for your world?

(As for physics forums...well, there can be some harsh characters on there, true...but if you'd ask my opinion, don't let that stop you! If it's just not your interest, that's a good reason to not waste your time on it. But if you want to learn that stuff for your world building, it's certainly worthwhile. :) )

Author:  FiddleGuitarist [ February 8th, 2012, 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where the sun never sets...

cephron wrote:
You're most welcome! Out of curiosity, which option do you plan to use for your world?

(As for physics forums...well, there can be some harsh characters on there, true...but if you'd ask my opinion, don't let that stop you! If it's just not your interest, that's a good reason to not waste your time on it. But if you want to learn that stuff for your world building, it's certainly worthwhile. :) )


Probably option 1. I like the idea of ice on the land masses, but the water remaining in an unfrozen state. It's given me the inklings of some plot ideas, actually...

Yeah, one of my new resolutions is to brush up on my physics this year. It's a reluctant resolution, but I think an important one. ;)

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