I'm trying to figure out a cool, different way for humans to fly in my fantasy world, and this video really fired my imagination, watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWfph3iNC-k Do you think there's a way I could make something like this for my world? I think it would be even cooler if there was another way to land so that they don't have to hang in the air on a parachute.
The way I would like to implement flying machines is to have a sort of militia based high on mountains, and when they receive word that there is war in the territory they've been assigned to, they leap off of the cliffs and arrive at the scene of battle moments later. Another thing to think about is whether they could somehow fight from the air on their way down. Does anyone have any ideas?

Flying machines in fantasy are lots of fun!

For your warriors, perhaps a hang-glider-ish contraption which quickly disassembles (tug a leather thong -> undoes a knot -> releases a belt or two) into two spears and a cloak? Bamboo for the spears, because it hits a good strength/weight balance?

Using a hang glider instead of a flying suit, it would probably be easier to kill your velocity by flying low to the ground and then stalling--not that I know the first thing about hang gliding.

But to be honest, I think at least some sort of extended wing contraption would be necessary. Those jump-off-cliff suits are great, but it looks like you can only land pretty close to the base of the mountain.

To achieve a similar goal in Enathal, some airships will launch small hang-glider like contraptions, each with a spring-powered fan that gives about 30 seconds of thrust, to get single combatants onto the envelope of an enemy airship. The thrust is necessary mainly to give the combatants a chance to gain some altitude (suppose the enemy ship is a little higher than yours?). If you wanted to include a similar thing, you could probably have it go on a lot longer, since you'd be trying to gain distance and not altitude (ie. you could use a lower thrust for a longer time, which would be more efficient for distance). I don't know how effective a spring would really be, though...there's Cobha involved in the making and loading of these springs in Enathal. What kind of technology (and/or Cobha) is available in your world?

Oh, and having a launcher on the mountain to start them off at gliding speed would significantly increase their range...otherwise, they burn a lot of altitude just getting up to an effective gliding speed. A large weight (family-car size?) dropping and pulling a rope which accelerates the combatant and glider along a track should do the trick. But you'd probably want a few so you could launch a wave and not string the warriors out too far.

Ah, wingsuits. One of my favorite advances in modern extreme sports. You can actually go quite a distance with winguits, I think the record is 5 miles. The reason it isn't very far is that you have to stop gliding at an altitude that lets you safely parachute to the ground.

For a landing, you could have them be able to glide all the way to the ground and be trained in landing.

I think the bamboo glider/weapons combination is a good idea, if they'll be first responders. They'll need special training and armor though, possibly as skirmishers or guerrillas.

The launcher is cool as well.

For fighting from the air, it would depend on what they use to fly.

I do like the idea of disassembling the glider into weapons, I might make one like that that! I can just see like five dark figures glide silently to the ground, deconstruct their gliders, and take out an unsuspecting gang of thieves!



Well, I was watching another video about those suits, and Jeb Corliss (the guy in the video) said that for every foot you fall, you go three feet forward. Since the mountains in my world can get pretty tall, I think range will not be a problem. Also, you can see that he doesn't jump off of the cliff and go straight out, but instead stays close to the mountain because you get more of a rush gliding inches above sharp boulders!
So a scenario could run like this: ten militia forces are on The Cliffs of Thure, which are ten thousand feet high, which makes for up to thirty thousand feet away from the cliff base-around four miles. Thuren's castle is two and a half miles away from the cliffs, and a griffin was sent from the castle to inform the militia that Thuren is under siege and cannot send for reinforcements, which are badly needed. The militia divides into five pairs, and glide down to alert bands of Rangers, WereWolves, Minotaurs, Centaurs, and other creatures in my world that are nearby and in alliance with Thuren.

Do you think that scenario sounds feasible? There are also Thermals, ridgelifts and wavelifts that can provide lift, making the wingsuit range depend solely on how I build the environment in which it is used, at least I think so.
For combat, the militia members would also have knives, swords, etc strapped to them inside the suit, but still easily accessible.



That sounds pretty awesome, you could make some pretty epic battles with that! I had actually thought of making there be planes fashioned similarly to birds (accept they would be fixed-wing), but I don't think I will have that "type" of technology (airships) in my world. But I might make use of springs...a spring powered fan is a very clever idea!



That's a good idea too! I think I would like to use that, but not for militia. Maybe I'd use that for, say, messengers from a castle with a rich lord that can afford launching engines...awesome!

I like your ideas, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. I think I will have several different types, some suited to rangers and militia that don't possess the money or the material required for a launching contraption, and some far-flying gliders that are launched for those that work for 'the crown' or whatever.

Does that sound good/make sense?

Just saw your post, Varon! Yes, wingsuits are awesome! Yeah, I was just thinking about how landing could work...maybe.
Maybe they could have a sort of wing extension knot that they could undo when they near the ground, letting loose larger folds of fabric that is reinforced somehow (wood, metal, an invented type of wood or metal), that would slow them down a lot. Then they would curl into a ball several feet off of the ground and roll forward when they land, the way that free runners do after an insanely long fall. They'd probably also have helmets and padded clothing as well. Think that might work?

I like that concept too. I'd like to work on something like that and also a heavier version that might even function as a crossbow capable of launching one bolt from the air, then the crossbow part could be detached and the soldier would be armed with a crossbow, bolts, and any knives/blades he might have strapped to himself. I think that would be a good and effective way to get heavily armed soldiers to the battlefield very quickly, assuming they were stationed in the mountains nearby...

The problem with heavily armed soldiers is the weight it'll put on the glider contraption. Hmm... Maybe they could use weapons made of a lighter metal than usual.

How would they aim the crossbows built into the gliders?



That could work, and would be pretty cool as well.

Ok, so if you've got lots of mountains and range isn't a problem, wingsuits would definitely be the cooler option! But just be aware that 3 (feet forward per foot down) isn't a very good glide ratio, and hang gliders can do a lot better. The high-performance ones can get 20, the (average?) quoted in the comparison table is 15. Imagine it's heavier and less efficient because of the weapons it's carrying and the constraints of the disassembly mechanisms, and only has a glide ratio of 9...this would still achieve triple the range of a wingsuit. But, like you said, range issues are totally up to you.

Here's a concept for you to play with!
To improve wingspan (and therefore glide ratio? But certainly the ability to kill velocity for landing), perhaps carry swords that attach to the wingsuit?

The cloak in the diagrams is actually pretty unrealistic for these purposes. In flight, the cloak would have to be attached at least at the shoulders, back edges of swords, at the belt, and at the heels of the boots. Or maybe integrated more fully into the warrior's outfit. The part I wanted to show is in the sword attachment--pull out the cord/leather thong, and the loops of fabric at the edges of the cloak will fall away from the metal rings on the backs of the swords. There are any numbers of ways one could set it up to trigger this...maybe pulling the arms forward, over the head? Anyways...I've spent too much time on this already....

That's cool.

It would be possible to use something in your world to increase the glide ratio though.

Wow, Cephron! You made that? That's awesome! I can see how that could definitely work. Picturing it, the cloak could have straps that attach it at the wearer's waist, and there would be thongs attached to it that would go around the ankles (pretty much like what you said). If I want them to use double-edged swords, the sheaths could be integrated into the edges of the cloak, then the person could slip their hands into "sleeves" that run alongside the sheaths, and then he could leap off of the cliff and, hopefully (lol), be able to glide down...he would spread his legs to get the 'tail' section between the legs, and the belt at the waist would gather in the fringes a little, making it quite aerodynamic, I think.
When they need to descend quickly (and are sure they have enough room!) they can flip like they do in this clip at about 0:35, then they would come in as level as possible, push the sheaths outward, releasing more 'wing', thereby increasing wingspan. Then hit the ground rolling, our militiaman will roll to his feet, and draw his swords, reaching cross-the-body style, and be ready to fight within seconds of landing!

Epicness.

Does that sound like what you were saying? Do you think that would work?

Epicness is indeed the plan!

If you like double bladed swords and sheaths in the cloak edges, that shouldn't be a problem. Details which can be worked out. What would concern me most, where realism is concerned, is how the cloak would work. I'm no expert in this stuff, but I get the feeling that something more than the shoulder/belt/ankle attachment would be needed--otherwise, each section of cloak in between the attachment points might collect air, ballooning out a bit, and act like mini-parachutes and slow the whole thing down. I think something might be needed to hold the fabric more flat against the warrior's body, or at least more flat in general. Maybe go more wingsuit style, with the wing sections attached to the warrior's suit (tail section could probably still be detachable from the boots without too much loss). Maybe go more hang-glider style, with segmented, collapsible poles holding the "cloak" taut while in flight? Gosh, I have to go to sleep. I'll conspire with you further tomorrow. xD

Good ideas.

Keeping the cloak flat to glide would be tricky. Possibly a lattice-work of short javelins?

Lol, I was already in bed when you wrote that! Good point, though, hmmm. What if there was a sort of vest-like part of the cloak that would strap around the abdomen, do you think that would solve the problem? Man, it's hard to invent a flying cloak! lol

I guess that's why we don't have flying cloaks.

It doesn't sound like it would solve it.

I'm sort of thinking it would have to be totally attached to the wearer's back and legs, but how to make it so that it won't inhibit movement during combat on the ground is going to be difficult...let me know if anyone thinks of a solution. Until then, I'll be breaking my head trying to think of one while I try to do other things!

If this is fantasy, rather than SF, we can posit fantastical materials that improve parachutes, flying suits, or the like, or some special ability (through an empathic bond with some bird in your world?) that would allow them to safely decelerate rapidly in midair and land lightly. An example of the first idea (inspired by a central mechanic of the game The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, which I've watched a few Let's Play videos of recently) is a parachute that can be opened or put away in moments---the main problems with parachutes, I think (never having used one myself) are that they take too long to fold up when you reach the ground (during which time you're vulnerable), they take a while to expand (increasing the minimum height at which they're effective), and they're easy targets for enemies on the ground (or, worse, above you). A parachute that could be opened and put away with little more than a thought and a free hand, especially if its vulnerable cross-section was only slightly larger than that of the human body, would be an effective tool.

Also, I'd like to suggest that a "flying militia" wouldn't have to launch themselves by jumping down from cliffs or mountain peaks; they could be shot from machines derived from catapults or trebuchets, or (if you have sufficiently large domesticated birds in your world) carried aloft by birds and dropped from altitude.

Thank you for your thoughts! I have considered making some sort of cobha or magic-ey ish thing that would help with this, but somehow I can't come up with one that doesn't feel like I'm just avoiding the problem (not that I'm against using magic or cobha in my stories, I just am really picky about how I use it, I guess). I'm thinking about inventing a sort of material that would increase the effectiveness of the cloak/suit thingy, but haven't decided anything yet.

We've also thought about how they could be launched, and I think that's a good idea! But I also think that in some cases they would not be able to build such engines because of lack of materials, space (if they are in a small spot), time (if they need to 'fall off' of a certain place right away and they haven't built their contraptions yet. But I will most likely use that idea as well in some cases! I especially like the idea of using large birds/flying creatures to do it as well...sort of alternate paratroopers!

Yup. Alternate paratroopers would be interesting.

Avoiding inhibiting movement, hmm. They'd have to remove the frame once they land, probably. Perhaps some quick release straps?

Paratroopers bury parachutes if they're being stealthy, or if there's a rush, they just leave them, I think.

A detachable frame would be nice, but the problem is that if it isn't attached to the rider's clothing, it would balloon too much and slow it down...I'm thinking maybe I should just try to design a sort of wingsuit that won't inhibit movement as much...still thinking on it...

Hmm...

I can't think of anything now.

Putting together the pros and cons of the wingsuit type ideas so far:



To address the last point under issue 4), here's a thought:

The grey areas are the wing-ish flaps on the wingsuit. The red lines are leather thongs threaded through sleeves on the edges of the flaps and loops along the main body/legs of the body, not too dissimilar from sword connection scheme in my earlier diagram. The red knob would probably be on the warrior's belt, and they would simply pull it out to release the wing bits. Could probably use some safety features, and maybe a way to keep the tail flap out of the way.

The cloak after they take out the cord makes them look like Jedi Knights.

Good list.

Thanks! Do you want to try putting one together for hang glider derivatives? You were bouncing around ideas for how prevent the cloak from ballooning a few posts back.

Nice! I like your analysis-it puts everything on the table so we know what we've got! I was thinking about some kind of system where they could untie a couple things quickly and things would come loose too, I like your rendition of it, especially the belt part, that's a good, quick way to loosen everything, and it's no great loss is it's lost (like a frame contraption would be). Maybe the 'tail' part could be of a sort of material that wrinkles and rolls up from being stretched out, that way it wouldn't hang down so much. About aerial combat...I was thinking about how it (maybe) could work. Hope this scenario doesn't turn out too long, but...

There's a dragon about two thousand feet below the cliff. Base jumper dives off of cliff, he has two short-swords (longer ones might work too, but I can't be sure, and I think short ones will work in this case) in sheathes tight against his lower legs. He hopes to surprise the dragon and kill it in the air.
As he glides toward the dragon, he twists his body subtly, altering speed and direction as he makes mental calculations. The dragon is still far below him and he is coming down on it quickly because it is flying slowly, perhaps looking for prey. The jumper quickly curls into a ball as he throws his weight forward and does a complete flip before recovering again. He does this two more times and finds himself a couple hundred feet and right above the dragon. He performs one more flip, crossing his arms and pulling the knives out of their sheathes as he uncurls his body and continues in a head-long dive towards the dragon.
One of the knives snap in half as he collides with the dragon and the knives hit it's hard scales near the base of it's neck. As he slides off of the side of the huge creature's back, he strikes the dragon at the base of the skull with what's left of the broken knife, putting fireworks in the beast's vision. As the jumper falls, he drives the unbroken knife into the dragon's softer belly. The monster screams a wild scream mixed with a roar similar to rending metal as a small torrent of red falls from his body. The jumper falls several hundred feet before leveling out and watching the dragon impact the ground.

Sorry it's so long, and I know it's not perfect, but I hope it demonstrated my idea a little bit anyway...does it seem feasible to you?

Also, I think it'd be cool to have a version of the paratroopers that actually do use parachutes, but maybe the sort of chute that is sort of oblong shaped so that they are able to glide a bit as well. These jumpers would be armed with bows and arrows, and (possibly, if technology allows) some sort of fire bombs. This way the archers could be placed above and behind the enemy, especially at night when they wouldn't be seen clearly. The only thing is you would want enough of them that they can help eachother survive once they land...

Perhaps a plant whose leaves fan out (to provide drag like a parachute) when some condition (such as light shining at them from below) is met, then collapse to a smaller cross-section when it stops? And I'd imagine you could do quite a bit with something like Tolkien's elvish rope ...
If nothing else, you could make that world's gravity slightly less or its atmosphere slightly denser, which would make parachutes not need to be quite so large to be effective.


A catapult or trebuchet doesn't need all that much space ... merely enough for its "footprint" and an unobstructed trajectory for the shot (whih is fairly shallow for a catapult, but quite steep for a trebuchet).

I'd imagine a culture of paratroopers without aircraft could make "siege engines" portable enough fo a squad to transport it with them by air; in our history the question was how large could you make them (for maximum range and maximum payload size) and still be able to move them and shoot them, but other constraints would have sent the development in a different direction.

If they're using parachutes (or something like parachutes), they're paratroopers already

And one more idea: If this isn't bog-standard humans, you could adjust their lower limbs somehow to allow them to withstand greater impact shocks without damaging their legs.

Those sound like neat ideas, I like the idea of using a new material (like your plant idea) better than changing the physics. If I'm correct, changing the gravity just a little tiny bit would have all kinds of effects on everything from the size of waves in the ocean, to how tall plants grow, how quickly things fall... But it's a cool idea all the same!

I could see using something like a slingshot (angry birds, anyone?), it seems harder for me to envision loading a person into a catapult. I don't know how I would modify it, it just doesn't look right! lol But I can see how it could even improve altitude, and thereby achieve greater range. If I decide to use that idea, I will!



Yes, I've thought about doing something like that...I think I will mention in my notes that these humans are made of sterner stuff than earthlings.

Thanks again for replying, and taking the time to think about this with me, all of you guys have been really helpful!

Hey, while we're on the subject of unusual plants, they would provide a great source for your humans' "sterner stuff". Say, long ago, they discovered a plant--which, when prepared as a tea and taken regularly, improves the toughness of bones, sinews and skin (it causes them to produce more collagen, but perhaps they wouldn't know that).

Good ideas.

Nice! Yes, I do believe I'll use that in my notes! *goes to google docs>Vadra Notes and adds 'healthy plants'! Thanks for that, cephron!

Yes, everything's interconnected, so any change would have all sorts of other effects; my point was that there are lots of factors involved in how effective parachutes are, and changing one or two of them slightly could make much smaller parachutes as or more effective than our world's ungainly ones.


The thing is (fom my admittedly limited understanding of physics, mechanics, and history) that simple slingshots Do Not Scale. To get the kind of power or loft you want with as a payload as heavy as a person, you either need an unreasonably large number of people pulling at once and all letting go at the same time, or some way of storing the energy---as torsion (twistings) in ropes for catapults, or (I think) as gravitational potential energy for a trebuchet. You could also use a spring-powered cannon, I suspect, if the culture is industrialized enough to produce sufficiently high-quality springs.
I don't know what modifications you'd want to make; the big thing is that a rock or a bomb (or a cow carcass) doesn't much care which way up it is when it's launched, or if it rolls around a bit during launch, while a paratrooper would care a great deal. But I'm certain it can be done--I think I've heard of stunt performers being launched from catapults, and as the angle is steeper a trebuchet should be far simpler to go from.


I also like cephron's refinement of the idea, that this is a treatment that paratroopers undergo to become combat-ready.

Interesting, I'll do some research probably and try to find pictures, and have them use catapults or something in some cases at least.

Man, you guys are really getting deep in here. I'm impressed. You even have Varon's attention held captive.

Yup.

Yep, it's fun! It'll be even more fun once a lucky ranger gets to be the first person in Vadra to fly without riding a bird/flying creature!

Seriously, I don't think I'd have made it without help from other HWers though!