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The Spanish 'J'
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=244&t=4250
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Author:  Calista Bethelle [ August 29th, 2011, 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  The Spanish 'J'

Have you ever wanted to use the sound that in Spanish is spelled with a J? I do a lot, as a result of studying Spanish, and I just don't know how to spell it so that people will pronounce it right. :? What do you suggest?

Author:  kingjon [ August 29th, 2011, 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Milly Manderly wrote:
Have you ever wanted to use the sound that in Spanish is spelled with a J?

In Spanish in which dialect? :) The way I pronounce Spanish, I'd either just use an H, or make it clear that the local dialect in the story is pronounced like Spanish and use a J.

Author:  KathrineROID [ August 29th, 2011, 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

There's always the possibility of a pronunciation guide, which is often useful for fantasy names. The problem with said pronunciation guide is that people don't always look at those. Thought I'd throw out that idea.

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ August 29th, 2011, 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Thanks guys!

Yeah, I try and put a pronunciation right after the word the first time it's said, but my problem is that there's no letter that can represent that sound unless it's a Spanish 'j', which...since some people don't speak Spanish, causes them to mispronounce it...so in a pronunciation key, if I want to represent that sound, the best I can do is put in 'gh'. Are there any other letter combinations that represent that better?

Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ August 29th, 2011, 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

From what I use of South American Spanish I'd just use an H. I.e. hahl e PEEN yo.

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ August 29th, 2011, 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

That's all very good and well, but what happens when you have a word that ends in the Spanish 'J' sound? For example, Gerinogh (spelled with the 'gh' as you can see). I'm not sure it would work very well with just the 'h'.

Author:  kingjon [ August 29th, 2011, 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Milly Manderly wrote:
That's all very good and well, but what happens when you have a word that ends in the Spanish 'J' sound? For example, Gerinogh (spelled with the 'gh' as you can see). I'm not sure it would work very well with just the 'h'.

I think we're talking past each other here ... in my (admittedly limited) experience with Spanish, the "Spanish 'j' sound" is precisely an aspirated 'h' sound. (For example, "rojo" is pronounced "ro-ho".) There's no *consonant* there at all, and I can't imagine how you would *pronounce* a word that somehow ended with that sound (the equivalent letter in English is, like I said, 'h', and in English words that end with that letter, the 'h' is silent), so for me *spelling* its pronunciation would be impossible.

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ August 30th, 2011, 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

kingjon wrote:
Milly Manderly wrote:
That's all very good and well, but what happens when you have a word that ends in the Spanish 'J' sound? For example, Gerinogh (spelled with the 'gh' as you can see). I'm not sure it would work very well with just the 'h'.

I think we're talking past each other here ... in my (admittedly limited) experience with Spanish, the "Spanish 'j' sound" is precisely an aspirated 'h' sound. (For example, "rojo" is pronounced "ro-ho".) There's no *consonant* there at all, and I can't imagine how you would *pronounce* a word that somehow ended with that sound (the equivalent letter in English is, like I said, 'h', and in English words that end with that letter, the 'h' is silent), so for me *spelling* its pronunciation would be impossible.

Haha...

Okay, so I don't know what aspirated means...I'm not a language expert. :roll:

Ugh...how can I say this right...? How about a recording of pronunciation to illustrate the sound I mean, for lack of a better way? :rofl: :P

Author:  KathrineROID [ August 30th, 2011, 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

That would work. :rofl:
What dialect of Spanish do you speak? Maybe that would help. I'm sure you could find a sound byte somewhere on the internet of the sound you want.

Author:  kingjon [ August 30th, 2011, 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Milly Manderly wrote:
Okay, so I don't know what aspirated means...

I happen to have a dictionary to hand :) ; the definition it gives for "aspirate" is

The American Heritage Dictionary wrote:
Linguistics. To pronounce (e.g., a vowel) with the release of breath associated with English h, as in he.

The example that leaps to my mind right now is the contrast between the words "tee" and "thee": "tee" is not aspirated, while "thee" is.
Milly Manderly wrote:
I'm not a language expert. :roll:

Neither am I :) . As with most subjects, I dabble. The sum total of even remotely formal language education (other than "language arts" i.e. "English") that I've had is three years of high school Spanish, a semester of (300-level, which was a mistake, and I'm still not sure how I passed) Spanish in college, and three semesters of Latin in college. But with parents who got a more-or-less solid background in various languages and still dabble, and my brother having taken French rather than Spanish in high school, I've managed to pick up bits and pieces here and there. :)

And, actually, the term "aspirate" was something I picked up in choir; we're always being instructed to aspirate words beginning with "h" even more than we were, because most concert halls tend to eat consonants, especially soft ones like "h" or "f".

Milly Manderly wrote:
Ugh...how can I say this right...? How about a recording of pronunciation to illustrate the sound I mean, for lack of a better way? :rofl: :P

There is a supposedly-standard syntax for writing out pronunciations, called the International Phonetic Alphabet. (And there's a variant designed for cases like this, where you can't change to the IPA font.) Unfortunately, it's more or less opaque nonsense to amateurs, and to the best of my knowledge I have yet to meet anyone who can actually read it. :)

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ August 30th, 2011, 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

KathrineROID wrote:
That would work. :rofl:
What dialect of Spanish do you speak? Maybe that would help. I'm sure you could find a sound byte somewhere on the internet of the sound you want.

Maybe... :D But, I don't know what dialect/version I'm learning... :P

kingjon wrote:
There is a supposedly-standard syntax for writing out pronunciations, called the International Phonetic Alphabet. (And there's a variant designed for cases like this, where you can't change to the IPA font.) Unfortunately, it's more or less opaque nonsense to amateurs, and to the best of my knowledge I have yet to meet anyone who can actually read it. :)

Uh, yeah...I don't know how to read those things. :P

Thanks for you're help, guys! :) I'll see how it all works out.

Author:  Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes [ September 28th, 2011, 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Here is a link to the IPA; each letter has its own page, and most of those have a recording of the sound being pronounced:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ September 28th, 2011, 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Hehe, thanks, Tsa! :dieshappy:

Author:  Sam Starrett [ November 22nd, 2011, 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

In the dialect I speak (fairly cosmopolitan, I think, but my teacher is Guatemalan, so to the extent that I speak a local dialect, that will be it), the jota is pronounced not like an english H, but like a Scottish Ch or Greek Chi. Think of the word "Loch," as in "Loch Ness" or "Loch Lomond." Hence the Spanish word reloj, meaning watch or clock, is perfectly pronounceable. I have this sound in one of my languages, and write it as Ch, if that helps any.

Author:  Calista Bethelle [ December 4th, 2011, 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Spanish 'J'

Thanks, Samstarrett! :)

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