Moving to technology... but it's really tactics. Strange this hasn't come up yet. If the technology people don't want it in there it can go to World Building, but like I said, it's tactics. Military. Strategy.
Interesting, wherever it goes.
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| Wars and What They Involve. https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=244&t=2492 |
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| Author: | Aris Hunter [ March 9th, 2011, 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Wars and What They Involve. |
I've been reading a series of fantasy books (The Binding of the Blade), and as the story progresses, there's been a lot of war and fighting between the good guy army and the bad guy army. As I've been reading, I realized I don't quite know a lot about what a war involves. I've never really had a full-scale war like the series I'm reading, so I don't know much about them. What does it when an army is being flanked (for example, in the series, the good army has difficulty in keeping the bad army from completely running through their left flank). And what is a line? Second, what sort of supplies would an army bring (food, clothing, shelter, etc.)? Would they take along people who don't necessarily fight, but doe out a spare sword or fix a horse shoe, or cook? And third, what's a good size for an army? Can you have too many soldiers? |
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| Author: | Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ March 9th, 2011, 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Moving to technology... but it's really tactics. Strange this hasn't come up yet. If the technology people don't want it in there it can go to World Building, but like I said, it's tactics. Military. Strategy. Interesting, wherever it goes.
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| Author: | Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ March 9th, 2011, 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Now, let me address the topic.  I had a big problem with wars for a very long time because I couldn't understand the tactics. I learned to write fantasy without big, epic battles. Eventually I learned a bit. First I was vague, then I learned enough to pretend I knew what I was doing. (Never Doubt is one of the most battle oriented stories I've ever written, and I'm still a little unsure of my tactical knowledge.) A flank... *sigh* Let me see if I can figure this out. Okay. You have the main body of the army, right? A nice big square, in formation, etc. The enemy, by creeping around in the woods could come up behind them and defeat them that way. The flanks are like wings on a house, stretching out to the side. They're the one's who do the sneaking around sometimes, and in order to attack from behind the enemy has to get through them. They're like the wings on a bird. Smaller, and movable, and the protect the main army. Since this is fantasy there can never be too many soldiers. You can, however, press the limits of the reader's imagination. LotR did this. I had an incredible time trying to actually believe in those kinds of numbers. (Especially in a pitched battle, which no one in their right mind does anymore!) But I don't know much about numbers.
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| Author: | Elanhil [ March 10th, 2011, 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
The numbers of an army depend on the size of the nation they are from which depends on the size of the whole world. And the army, of course, will be broken up into cores and divisions etc. if it is a big war. Normally for battles a slightly large number to me would be about 10,000 men. Wars like the ones seen in the Narnia books with only one battle will rarely happen. There are often many attacks, defenses, retreats, etc. throughout the whole war that take place in many different locations. There are people who go to war but don't fight, but everybody who does go needs to be able to fight in an emergency. But obviously, not in every battle. It would be foolhardy to send out your doctor or nurse into the battle. I don't think there are people who just 'hand out an extra sword.' The army may bring extras, or collect them from prisoners, but they don't have men whose only job is to distribute them. Maybe at the capitol or something where they start... cooks are the same as doctors, in a citizen army it would be easy to find a blacksmith or two for jobs like fixing a horseshoe. I'm not military expert so I'd have what I say confirmed, but that's what I go by... |
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| Author: | Aris Hunter [ March 12th, 2011, 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Interesting. What do you mean by defenses, Elanhil? Would that be in the battlefield, or wherever the army retreats to? How many people would an army bring, who don't battle? So what is a line? |
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| Author: | Elanhil [ March 12th, 2011, 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
A line is generally just a row of men, but sometimes it is curvy, sometimes there are breaks in it, etc... I couldn't give you an amount, but it would be low probably near 1%. By defenses I mean when an army is attacked and they need to defend their position. If you look at the civil war you will see that there is much more to a war than one battle. The exception would be if the armies were both really small, in which they would either retreat or surrender soon, or would be crushed. With huge numbers that are popular in fantasy, there is often more than one battle. (That's one of the reasons I like LotRs.)
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| Author: | Aris Hunter [ March 12th, 2011, 11:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
OK. Another question. In the book I'm reading, they have dragons on their side which breathe fire. I'm trying to figure out, why don't they have the dragons, in the dead of night, swoop down and flame everyone in the bad army? I'm reading, and thinking, "Have the dragons flame them in their sleep!" Is there a reason for not doing that, or am I just really over-thinking it? |
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| Author: | Elanhil [ March 12th, 2011, 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
I suppose that could be possible, but there is a question of nobility. War men value that a lot. If you just go in and burninate the other army, even the good guys wouldn't like that...It's hard to explain...  Also the other armies would probably keep a watch, and since there are dragons, they would have some sort of weapon or something to deal with them. |
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| Author: | Aris Hunter [ March 13th, 2011, 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Ah, OK. That makes sense. And yeah, they do have (or, the giants have) a special kind of shield with resists fire. Ooh, that's a fun word. Burninate.
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| Author: | Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ March 14th, 2011, 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
One thing I'd like to drop in here - "lines" aren't generally used in fantasy battles, as in line of battle like they used in the Civil War. (Except among archers, maybe). Although, "lines" can also more generally refer to "the enemy lines" or something like that which is just the point at which the enemy has advanced. What Hilly wrote about many battles is true. Ultimately you have to decide if you're describing a battle or a war, because they are different. (Even strategies can change if you're fighting a single battle or a war). As to numbers, I count as realistic 30 to 100 thousand men per army. At least in a fantasy battle. (In WW2 the US fielded millions of soldiers) I'm definitely going to be following this discussion; it's a problem I've run up against a lot, myself. One last thing and then I'll go: The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a very, very, good book for stuff like this =D eruheran |
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| Author: | Elanhil [ March 14th, 2011, 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Yeah, I really want to read that book. This is something that I'm just beginning to explore myself, so I'll try to give as much help as possible. |
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| Author: | Varon [ March 15th, 2011, 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
I don't write many fantasy novels, but I write plenty of sci-fi war novels. They're different, but the basics are the same. A flank is essentially a side. You have your front line facing the enemy, and a flank is separate group also facing the enemy, but they're the end of the line. A flanking maneuver is a maneuver when a unit of soldiers attacks the enemy's flank (side, end, etc) to divide the focus between two points. A line, in fantasy, is a long line of soldiers next to each other. It's often used to make a shield wall. In modern-esque eras or the future, a line could be a long line of defenses like the Maginot line in France. An army would carry everything from weapons to tents to food to medical supplies to shoes. Yes, an army has people who don't fight but support. These are people like blacksmiths, medics, cooks, tacticians, or communications specialists. The size of the army depends, like mentioned, on the size of the country and number of fighting men. It also depends on the enemy and the size of their army. |
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| Author: | Lord Kieren Mimetes [ May 12th, 2011, 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
If a country is involved in active war, the army, including reserves, would be anywhere from like 8%-15%. If it is an especially war-like country (Barbarians, required military, etc.) it could be nearly 40%. Now, obviously, it's not going to field its entire army in one battle unless it is a desperate situation, like LotR. The noun flank was already described better than I could by Varon, so I'll just go into the verb. When somebody is flanked, it means that the enemy came around and they pushed back one side of the other army. This is very bad. If you are flanked, it is like drawing a noose. They start to close in drawing a near circle around, where you are attacked from every side. Plus, this way, they can have more men fighting than you because their circle is outside and consequently bigger, so more men can fight on the front. Camp followers depend on the expedition. If they are plunging into territory where they expect to be for a long while and fight several battles, they would probably take more, like 10% of the army. On the other hand, if they are fighting a single battle it would be more like what Elanhil said. In a war, there are defenses and offenses. In an offense, one side is just making a push forward, trying to break through the enemy line, meaning simply where they have men stationed to fight to keep the enemy off. It is just pressing forward, trying to get through the enemy. These also occur on a smaller scale in battles where on side tries to press through the other's lines, simply meaning their army, or where they try and flank the enemy. In short, an offense is simply a stage in war or a single battle where on side is pushing to gain the upper hand. A defense is the opposite. It is where one side is trying to push back the side making the offense. Defenses often turn into offenses as the troops succeed in pushing the other back and use the momentum to gain their own offensive. Also, there are stalemates where no one is fighting, only simply guarding their lines. It is the lull between battles. |
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| Author: | Svensteel Mimetes [ July 5th, 2011, 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
I believe it really depends on the population of the world. And how powerful the army's leader is and how he got them. If he made each one by some magic one by one he couldn't have more then a thousand! If they popped up from the ground he could have as many as you want!  It depends, if he would enslave a nation, and control their minds using some sort of magic you would need to know what the average population of countries is. To know a good estimate for the army I would need to know what it is that is attacking, how it is, and what the amount of people in that area/the world is!
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| Author: | Varon [ May 3rd, 2013, 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wars and What They Involve. |
Here's a good site to help with the size of the army. Realistic armies in a medieval fantasy period wouldn't be as big as you might think. They alll have to be fed, paid, and equipped. http://www.writing-world.com/sf/hordes.shtml |
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