Patrick Darren Lauser to my frank friends of Holy worlds, greetings, the Lord bless ye, and remember that the Lord is in our midst. Ye can call me Patrick, or Halas Malakh, or PD until I decide on a handle that I would enjoy having.

Touching cobha, it is a word that I made up, and I place in in Alain, and in the Alauyt language. It is pronounced cone, lava.

In an explanation of what it means:

When you make an Otherworld it is necessary for most of it to be the same as the Familiarworld, yet if the whole work was only describing the events that happened in the Familiarworld it would not be fiction. In one sort of fiction the author tries to make it so that the only reason the story could not have actually happened is that it did not actually happen. The reader is trying to believe that the events actually happened, which is the case with all fiction, and things that happen that make the story physically impossible mar its believability.

In another sort of fiction (fantasy), events that are physically impossible, and are as carefully written by the author as the rest of the story, are included so that the reader may experience things that are physically impossible.

Now there is no word in English, that is, none that I know of, for an event of this kind. But since these events occur in your Otherworld, or at least in your fantasy fiction stories, you would need to have a name created to suit your own stories and Otherworlds. Without it you would have to call these events nothing, or explain them somehow: he was dreaming, it was a miracle, it was magic. Explanation is all I have seen authors do.

I name it.

I include it as a part of my Otherworld, as part of the several languages of my Otherworld. In Alain a thing that is physically impossible in the Familiarworld is called cobha, or a cobha; in Pilane it is called sross; in Robonaz there is a word for it, but I do not know what it is yet.

Yes he is my brother. And you do not want to know what his Otherworld is like: it makes me dizzy and disoriented (to say the least).

I will get him to post though, since he doesn't get on all that often.

Is there any way to say that in simpler words? I think I understand, but I'm not sure. Cobha would be what is physically impossible made possible by what the author writes so the reader can experience what is physically impossible.

Hi there. That is a highly interesting concept you have concerning Cobha. I got lost halfway through, but it was fascinating, so I have to reread it.

Your Otherworld makes Sir Emeth disoriented!? The Sir Emeth Mimetes whose words and stories have my mind spinning? Whew, that's . . . well, startling. Unheard of. I can't believe it.

I'd love to learn more about it, though! Maybe story artistry just runs through the Lauser family.

Story artistry at least runs in the Lauser Children, and our parents show evidence of it once in a while.

I am still finding time to type in Patrick's response to your question, Brendan, sorry.

Cobha is those natural laws and processes, as a group, which are different from the Familiarworld. So yes, Cobha is what is impossible, made possible by the sub-creation of your imagination. Thus, something which might be magical in our Familiarworld, might be utterly normal in an Otherworld.

All power comes from God, period. It can be used wrongly and out of place, but all power comes from God: even power that comes from demons. God gave it to them, and if you take it, it is not yours. Now, if God gives to your natural races a power, then there is nothing wrong with them using it.

The point is that there is not just Miracles and Black Magic: there is also perfectly natural things like picking up a spoon. Now, cobha is where those categories are differently arranged: containing different acts and abilities, than what we are used to in our world.

Make sense?

Yeah, it is pretty easy to understand when you put it that way.

Very interesting After reading over this thread again, I think I understand it, mostly. So basically cobha is something that is physically impossible in one world, but normal in another?

And despite how confusing your Otherworld is said to be, I would actually love to hear about it

Yes, exactly.

I know, I am trying to get it typed in.

Finally! I have looked and looked for a definition of cobha and I have finally found it and, what is more, I understand! Yay!

Thanks for bumping this thread so that I could see it, Armorbearer...I was just about to start a thread on cobha asking what it really is. And thanks Jay/Patrick for your explanations. (I'm not sure who wrote what...)

eruheran

I love the way you write, Patrick! Do you talk like that too? It's simpler than Shakespeare, and yet more comprehensible than Thomas Mallory, and yet you have the beauty of both, or more. I can't quite put my finger on it, and I'm usually very good at copying styles, but I could read that all day.

And it makes perfect sense to me. A word for it is cool.

(It's like reading Tyndale! Tyndale writes like that and its breathtakingly beautiful...)

He says you are encouraging.

Haha, I agree with you on that though, he is really amazing.

He tries to talk like that, but he doesn't always succeed.

I am encouraged. Thank you!

Tyndale is the best writer of English that ever has, or ever will be.

I love the writing of Tolkien. He is very courteous and humble, and sincerely correct. He is peaceful and independent.

Another author that I like is Rudyard Kipling. He is able to communicate something foreign in an understandable way.

I thought of another way to explain cobha:

There are fictional characters, characters you can never meet in the Familiarworld; there are fictional places, places you can never go to in the Familarworld; there are fictional events, events that never have, and never will happen in the Familiarworld; and there are fictional possibilities, things that are not possible (as far as we know) in the Familiarworld.

And that is cobha.

Pretending that a man can leap fifty feet into the air, seeing that you are already pretending that he exists... in the Otherworld.

So you're familiar with Tyndale! Cool. You agree with me about Tyndale which explains why you're so good.

Very impressive. Keep it up. Write more on here.

Cobha... I might have a little in my books so far, but not a lot as of yet. I am extremely wary of using magic in my writing, but I do not hesitate to create bizarre creatures that can do impossible things... Yeah, I guess that's cobha.

You're Jay's bro? Haha, nice.

Forgive me if I do not understand your statement, but I'm not sure who that was directed to.

Elly was referring to the original post, which was made by my brother.

I think she was referring to Tsahraf.

Tsahraf is Jay's younger brother, Elanhil.

Yes, that is why I said what I said...

Oh, sorry, I interpreted your meaning differently.

Thanks!

Could someone please explain to me in simple terms what cohba is? I know it isn't magic so what is it? What examples can you give me?

Thank you!

Good question...I'm not entirely sure, but I think cobha would be something similar to super-human abilities. For example; a shape shifter's ability to change into different beings would be cobha since it isn't magic, but rather an ability that is above average.

I think that's the best I can describe it...I'm not sure, though.

It's a natural part of your world that is not in our world. The Dwarves skills at mining is cobha, as is the shapeshifters ability.

To paraphrase Sir Emeth's interpretation of Tsahraf's description of Cobha:
If I am understanding cobha correctly, anything in a fantasy world that is normal for that world but which does not exist in our world is cobha. Examples from The Lord of the Rings include races such as hobbits, elves, and dwarves; weapons like the sword Sting; the One Ring; the wizards; Sauron, etc.

Aaah now I understand it better! Thank you so much everyone for explaining!

I totally didn't get it either when I first read it.

So basicly, an otherworld is the inverse of a familierworld. And cobha is like a skill or talent in one world that would be supernatural in the other?? Like a dragon that can breath fire, or elves that can hear really well, ect. Is that correct?

Yep!

That was impressive, Adira.

Let me know if I got this right. From what I've read, Cobha is a term created to describe the fantastic/magical elements presented as reality within a fictional world. So if I had a fictional world that had dwarves and magic but within my world I called those elements, let's say, "Sarsha," it would be the same as calling it Cobha?


What is confusing me is that I'm interpreting the meaning of Cobha as another way of saying "suspension of disbelief."

Using LoTR as example, the reader knows the world this story takes place in is fictitious, as are the races, characters, and magic. However, because these fantastic elements are presented as reality/normality within this fantasy world and the writing is able to capture the imagination, the reader is willing to suspend their disbelief and are able to accept a world of magic, hobbits, and a ring with great power.

Another example would be Superman. It is impossible for a man to fly, have laser eyes, and be invincible, but the story is presented in a way that allows us to suspend out disbelief of those facts. Superman is also a great example of when the suspension of disbelief is broken. People have no problem believing his powers but can't accept that he is able to disguise himself by wearing glasses.

Please correct me if I'm completely off target. I tend to do that a lot.

Suspension of disbelief is similar, but not quite the same.

Cobha is something that would be supernatural in our world, but isn't in the otherworld. If something happens that is supernatural there, then that wouldn't be cobha.

Does that help?

This is what I'm gathering.
Example of Cobha: Tolkien's Dwarves are all very good smiths. In Middle-Earth (the Otherworld) this is a perfectly normal trait.
Example of Magic as compared to Cobha: Say one of the aforementioned Dwarves learned to fly. This is not a normal trait for Dwarves in Middle-Earth. This is not a Cobha, it is the Dwarf using some sort of 'magic'.
Note: I'm not sure how he learned to fly. It's a rather vague example.

In that case, ideas such as God giving out exceptional talents to people would fall under a cobha. i.e. One person has great musical talent. The next person can start fires just by thinking: I need a fire.
If that is seen as a normal trait in the Otherworld, it is a cobha. All we've done is diversified the talents that people can have.

However, if starting a fire with your mind is not a normal talent that is spread amongst people, then it is a magic. Whether you were born with this ability, or you have gained it from some source either evil or good, it cannot be a cobha because it still isn't normal.

Am I working along the right lines, here? Tsahraf? Emeth?

I'm thinking we need to break these ideas down into categories. *goes to work on that*

Gotcha.

That is a very good explanation, Inesdar, thanks.

To put it in a list (though lists are rather uncomfortable):

Miracles: The power of God and his Angels

Electrical system (this may or may not be put in natural law): The limited and little known powers of the human spirit

Natural law: What is allowed by the course of nature which God set and sustains in motion

Sorcery: The power of fallen angels (certainly far more limited than miracles, and probably far less limited than the electrical system)

Cobha: Those abilities (whether of plants, animals, or creatures that bear the Image of God) which are not known to be allowed by natural law in the Familiarworld, but are allowed by the imagination in fiction.

(As a note, the word Familiarworld was coined by me to mean "real life," rather than an imaginary version of "earth," for instance, the England of the Chronicles of Narnia, or an Otherworld, such as Narnia.)


Something interesting:
"Theurgy,
The art of doing things which it is the peculiar province of God to do; or the power or act of performing supernatural things by invoking the names of God or of subordinate agents; magic. This has been divided by some writers into three parts; theurgy, or the operation by divine or celestial means; natural magic, performed by the powers of nature; and necromancy, which proceeds by invoking demons."-Websters 1828 Dictionary

I found this word and definition after I had developed the list arrangement I showed you.

What is the Electrical System? Are you talking about the Familiarworld here? If so, could you explain what this means? Is this our spirit/soul supposedly influencing our body when we make a moral decision?

Yup, the Familiarworld, just a part of it that has not been very familiar to our culture. It probably has to do with the connection between our spirit and body. This category is rather vague, possibly including any of the following: second sight, telepathy, EFT, shared dreams, kinesiology (I think). But it does not really have anything to do with cobha, unless to know what is really possible in the Familiarworld, and therefore not neccessarily cobha in a story.

Ah, ok. So, would stuff like spiritual discernment and prophecy fall under that? I'm not used to the categories you mentioned there. But I see what you mean about it being uncertain whether or not to put this under natural law.

It would depend on how you did it. If God gave the foresight or discernment then it would be under Miracle. But if you used a cun (see this thread: http://www.holyworlds.org/fantasy/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=3623) it would be more like using a hound to follow a scent, and would fall under Cobha because it cannot be done in the Familiarworld (there are no cun in the Familiarworld). By the way, what exactly are you referring to by spiritual discernment?

What about a list classified this way?


Thus, basically the Natural Law of the Otherworld in question.
Magic: Anything that does not fall under the Natural Law of the world in question.

Type A: Person-magic. The ability of a person to do something that goes against Natural Law of the world in question.
_______Sub-type A/1: Talent. An inborn ability to do something that goes against Natural Law or Cobha. Easily perverted from its original purpose.
_______Sub-type A/2: Gained. An ability gained from an outside source to do something that goes against Natural Law or Cobha. Once given, is not usually taken away and can be easily perverted to the human’s will.

Type B: Spirit-magic. Not really magic at all, and perhaps to the only kind to be found in the Familiarworld. Many people are familiar with it. In this case, deities as well as their evil counterparts have power that they can ‘lend out’ to humans, enabling the human to do something out of the ordinary for a while, until they withdraw their power. Because the human is simply a channel, they cannot take this power and do with it what they like. See ‘Miracles’ and ‘Sorcery’.

Type C: Person-cobha. The ability of a person to do something that is magic in the Familiarworld, but falls under the Natural Law of the Otherworld, even if rare. Electrical System could go here.

Type D : Impersonal-cobha. Akin to George Lucas’ Force, or Robert Jordan’s saidin/saidir. An impersonal source of power that can be tapped.
______Sub-type D/1: Independent. Like the Force, a replacement for a deity. Could possibly have a ‘will’ and be able to act independently, without human ‘tapping’. Unlikely to found in Christian Fantasy.
______Sub-type D/2: Overflow. An impersonal source of power created by a deity for humans to use, subject to the human’s will.

Type E: Nature’s cobha. The ability of something other than a ‘creature bearing the Image of God’ to do something that is magic in the Familiarworld but fits with Natural Law of the Otherworld.

Nice breakdown, Aldara!

I think Tsahraf believes that what he means by "Electrical System" is present in reality, and thus shouldn't count as cobha. I'm still trying to figure this out, though. I wonder some of it actually falls under your "Type B"?

Lol, Type "D:"

That's an interesting point. It seems to me that this would be a kind of "semi-personal" power, if it has a will. Many forces act independently of human activity, though. Gravity, for example. Perhaps it would have to act "intelligently" in some way, for it to be considered to have a will?

Hm...how is this different from Type C, if it's naturally subject to humans' will? Oh, I see. It's not necessarily "natural", it could be a power offered independently of nature, but still subject to human will. Whereas Type C is integrated into the nature of the otherworld. Is that more or less what you had in mind?

Nicely done, Aldara *applauds*

Thank you, Seer, cephron.

@cephron- Type C is like Type A/1, except that Type C is a normal talent for someone to have, and Type A/1 is not. See the fire example I used above.
Type D/2 is like saidin/saidir. It's a force, outside of human existence, that humans can tap in to. It's not just an inborn ability, through the two could be combined so that some people have the inborn ability to tap into the force. That's how it was used in Star Wars. The only thing about Star Wars is that it has Type D/1 cobha.

Type D/1 is not like gravity, because gravity has a set of laws -what goes up, must come down. Type D/1 is an impersonal force, yes, but it works through humans. It's not subject to human will, but it is not controlled by a deity. It is the deity.

Is that clearer? Type D/1 is a bit confusing.

I have a devil of a time distinguishing the natural and the supernatural, so maybe you guys can help me out here.

For instance: Is magic in Harry Potter (sorry for the controversial example, but it was the only thing that really illustrated the concept I was going for) actually a form of cobha, because it is "normal" for wizards to do magic, and because there are limitations and rules for its use? If so, could someone give me an example of "real" magic in fiction, as opposed to cobha? Is it cobha when Daffy Duck can pull an axe out from behind his back despite there being no axe nearby and no way for him to have hidden it? If something is outside natural law, does that mean it has no limitations? If not, how do we distinguish "supernatural" limitations from "natural" limitations?

As far as I know the Harry Potter magic was part of an alternate earth cobha. Daffy Duck would not have anything to do with cobha because his creators were not trying to create a consistent alternative to non-fiction, but an inconsistent alternative. Nothing is normal or predictable, thus nothing could be cobha.

OK. So what would be an example of genuine magic in fiction?



That's not really true. The Looney Tunes world does operate according to relatively consistent (if completely false) laws of physics.

Assuming for the purpose of the discussion that magic (the whole ball of wax, not just its existence---more on that point below) in Harry Potter is cobha and not "magic", arguably much of what Harry does (driving off hundreds of dementors in his third year, for example) is "magic"---if something is "normal" to one degree, it can still be "magic" for someone to do it to a far greater degree.

There have to be some sort of limitations for the story to be plausible, maintain narrative tension, etc.---unless it's not relevant to those concerns. The thing is that "magic", while subject to its own rules, is explicitly outside the "natural laws" of the story-world. In Narnia, for example, it's natural for winged horses to exist and be able to fly, and for animals to talk. It's miraculous for normal animals to be made to talk, or for an ordinary horse to be made into a flying horse.

And it's possible for the existence of some sort of way of getting around natural laws (some "magic" system) to be an accepted truth in a story world, i.e. "cobha" (such a useful term!), but any or even every example of it to still be "magical"/miraculous/etc. (yet still subject to its own limitations).

I just realized that a very important conversation in my book is about cobha and that I've been trying to name it something, but I can't use the word cobha...