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Astronomical Signs
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Author:  Evening L. Aspen [ January 17th, 2011, 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Astronomical Signs
First off, I'm not exactly sure if this thread should have gone in Theology or Culture, so other mods, feel free to move it if this is the wrong place.

That said, how do y'all handle astronomical signs in your novels? Do you use them, or avoid them altogether?

The reason I am thinking about this topic is because of a story I just started. I was listening to a song that inspired me to write a short story, and my first sentence was "they were born under the sign of the Eagle's Wing", which also ties in with their "destiny". ("They" are twins.) I am wary of using anything similar to the occult or horoscopes in my stories, so this sentence worries me. What do you think?
Author:  BushMaid [ January 17th, 2011, 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I've heard a quote, that ran, "If in doubt, leave it out." If it were me, I wouldn't go for astrological signs. You can find other coincidental things to line up and equal destiny. That's what I'm doing with my current novel. :)

I don't know if that helps you any, but good luck with your novel whatever way you decide! :D
Author:  Evening L. Aspen [ January 17th, 2011, 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Thanks, BushMaid, that's a really good quote. :D My Mom told me about a passage in Deuteronomy about astrology and such, and I'm trying to find it to study it a bit. But I think, just to be on the safe side, that I will remove that line about the "sign of the Eagle's Wing". I'll have to include that symbol somewhere else so that it doesn't sound so much like the occult.
Author:  Elanhil [ January 18th, 2011, 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I wouldn't have a problem with it. C.S Lewis used it in Narnia...but then again Lewis isn't always a go-to.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ January 18th, 2011, 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
If you get a chance, find this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Meaning-Zodiac-James-Kennedy/dp/1929626142

It's utterly intriguing. I think the stars have meanings but if it's going to be hard the dance around horoscopes you could make it so that culture tells time by the stars rather than the sun or moon.
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ January 18th, 2011, 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I agree that it can be hard to avoid something like that sounding like a horoscope.

On a side note, the stars, moon, and sun have been symbolic in respect to things like the star that shone over Bethlehem and where it was in the sky, etc. I don't have time to post in detail, but if your interested, I would try to get a copy of "The Bethlehem Star". It's a video, and it's fascinating. The guy who teaches on there also gets into the same thing your wrestling with a little bit.
Author:  Whythawye [ January 19th, 2011, 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
You could also read the last few chapters of Job, in which God talks about the names of the constellations and the Zodiac in particular (Maggaroth, I think He called it) quite familiarly.
Author:  Reiyen [ January 19th, 2011, 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Oh yes, in Deuteronomy God has a field day on all sorts of diviners, from liver-readers to star-watchers.

Leviticus 20:27 (KJV) wrote:
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 18:11 (KJV) wrote:
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.


Note particularly "observers of times," which is the old way of saying those that watched the stars to forecast the future.

Now all that is well and good, but we are dealing with fantasy here. After all, this verse speaks outright against wizards, and most of us, from Tolkien to me, have wizards roaming our worlds. So the only way out of this corner is to say that it is cobha, stuff that is OK "over there." Of course, I can see concerned parents coming out in droves and legions against a book that starts with what seems like a Zodiac sign... so you have to consider your audience.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ January 20th, 2011, 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I agree with Reiyen. If this world is not earth, you may do what you like. However, be wary of the tone you are implying.

I think there is a difference between using celestial cycles to mark passages of time and saying those signs determine your personality and future. If your world uses celestial cycles to divide the years, saying someone was born in the "Year of the Eagle's Wing" is no different then saying "I'm a child of the 90s." (I would still be cautious with your wording, however, to try and distant it from the Chinese Zodiac.) Saying that all children born in the year of the Eagle's Wing are introverts with mind-reading abilities is another matter all together.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ January 20th, 2011, 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
The whole 'born under such and such a star' thing never was overly consistent... otherwise there should be a whole rash of heroes all the same age in stories of that type. :roll:

On the other hand, it would be a very interesting premise if cobha abilities were split up by birth years. In a way that makes it all equal, and that makes it clear that it's got nothing to do with fortunes; it's just the way the world works and everyone accepts it.

Hum, now I have to save that idea for later!!
Author:  Seer of Endor [ January 21st, 2011, 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Melody Kondrael wrote:
On the other hand, it would be a very interesting premise if cobha abilities were split up by birth years. In a way that makes it all equal, and that makes it clear that it's got nothing to do with fortunes; it's just the way the world works and everyone accepts it.
She could tweak that concept into saying that the cobha of the world has a special affect for twins born under certain signs. It's not much different than the Medieval belief that the seventh son of a seventh son was born with "Second Sight" (which originally allowed him to see through fairy illusions and later was adapted into the ability to see the future). Just a thought.
Author:  Calista Bethelle [ February 12th, 2011, 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Reiyen wrote:

Leviticus 20:27 (KJV) wrote:
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 18:11 (KJV) wrote:
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.



Now all that is well and good, but we are dealing with fantasy here. After all, this verse speaks outright against wizards, and most of us, from Tolkien to me, have wizards roaming our worlds. So the only way out of this corner is to say that it is cobha, stuff that is OK "over there."


Uh, I would stay far away from wizards and such after that verse. I would prefer to stay on the safe side than to say it's okay in another world. God's orders are God's orders, no matter where you are.
Author:  Reiyen [ February 12th, 2011, 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Consider this scene, Milly:

Priest Uxmal's heart was beating rapidly, and his palms were sweaty. It was time for the big show-down with Emperor Heathnor. As the guards pulled open the great door, Uxmal was sure his face had turned white. He looked at his companion and brother, Theris, and judged by the shade of his face that his own was matching.
They entered the great throne room. The Emperor had a wry grin on his face, and his magicians were surrounding him. Uxmal could tell that the Emperor had already decided how this meeting would end. It was a good thing that Uxmal had never intended to win freedom for his people by debate. He rubbed his staff, sure that it would work, just not sure enough.
"It has come to the ears of the great Emperor," the emperor droned, "who hears all, that your pesky people wish to depart from my lands. I thought I would simplify the emancipation process by telling you here and now that you aren't going anywhere."
Uxmal looked to his brother, who nodded. They had known this would be the case. "Oh great Emperor, thus says our god, 'Let the slaves depart the land, so that I may be glad with their worship.'"
The emperor laughed, "Your god has yet to prove himself. If it is a battle of gods, then surely you shall be slaves forever. Have we not built temples that reach to the sun for our god? Where is your god? Our god rules the rivers and the sands, what can yours do?"
Uxmal, angered by the impunity that he had expected, cast his staff on the ground. Instantly, it came alive as as snake, coiling itself together, then standing up. It puffed out its hood.
The emperor's laughter died, but the grin wasn't gone yet. "Magicians, show this man that our gods rule the snakes..." Instantly all of the magicians cast down their staffs, which like wise became snakes, for about a minute.
Within the minute Uxmal's snake had swallowed all of theirs. Then it returned to Uxmal and became again a stick.
---
Now you probably caught on to what was going on there, but just in case someone misses it Uxmal is better known to us as Moses, accompanied by his brother Aaron, who had a show-down with Pharaoh, not the emperor Heathnor. The point is that what I call a "wizard" in my world is nothing more than a Moses, in fact he is much less if you look up my Red World cobha, either in this Magic forum or in my sub-forum. The other point is that, clearly, turning a stick into a snake isn't wrong. Moses did it, God told Him to. It's how you turn a stick into a snake that is either right or wrong, along with why you turn the stick into a snake.
Author:  Calista Bethelle [ February 14th, 2011, 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
In your case, I would call it a miracle, not magic, but good point. That's fine if your wizards are none other than men of God, and I applaud your writing so far. It sounds really neat. I especially liked the part describing Uxmal's white face. :D Keep it up!
Author:  Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes [ March 8th, 2011, 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Reiyen wrote:
The point is that what I call a "wizard" in my world is nothing more than a Moses, in fact he is much less if you look up my Red World cobha, either in this Magic forum or in my sub-forum. The other point is that, clearly, turning a stick into a snake isn't wrong. Moses did it, God told Him to. It's how you turn a stick into a snake that is either right or wrong, along with why you turn the stick into a snake.


A wizard is a man that invokes demonic power, rather than the power of God. So Uxmal is no wizard, but he is neat.

A man that invokes the power of God is called a prophet. To call him a wizard could put you in great danger.

Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill.
And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty.
And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty.
And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.

And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty.
And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Author:  Reiyen [ March 8th, 2011, 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
That depends on which definition of the word "wizard" you are using. If you are using the one that was used when translating the Bible, it does mean a user of demonic powers.
But if you use the one that Tolkien, no amateur with languages, used, it means someone with unusual, cobhaic, powers. Gandalf is pretty much the prime example of a wizard in modern definitions of the word, and it is clear that all of his power came from "the good side gods." Tolkien thought of him like an angel, and the similarities are nearly endless.
The point is that the external actions of Moses appear exactly like those of any wizard you will find out there. He caused supernatural things to happen as the agent of a supernatural power.
So yes, to use the elder definition of wizard, calling Moses such would be bordering on blasphemy and certainly sacrilegious, but with the one used in more recent fantasy writings, I don't think it is.
Author:  Seer of Endor [ March 9th, 2011, 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Ok gang, I'm glad to see you handling the discussion maturely. However, this thread was started to answer a specific question posed by Evening that referred to a story she's working on. It was not intended to turn into yet another debate on wizards and magic in Christian fantasy. You all have valid ideas, and I think you'll find that many of them are shared by other members here and here. But let's please keep this thread on topic. Thanks :D
In Christ,
Jordan
Author:  Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes [ March 9th, 2011, 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Sorry, I should have noticed that the topic switched. *is sheepish*

Astronomical signs.

Something to keep in mind that is true in the Familiarworld and in the Otherworlds is that the lasting good fortune of a man, or the good fortune of a nation, is based on whether that nation or that man is reconciled to God.

Also, every man has complete control of (and responsibility for) his own actions.

But there is a difference between foretelling what could happen and what will happen. For example, Jonah prophesied to the Ninevites that if they did not repent they would be destroyed, and if they did repent they would not be destroyed. But Habakkuk prophesied that Babylon would "pass over and offend," and would be punished for it.

It is apparent from the Bible that interpreting omens is wrong because it is a lie. It is impossible to predict the future based on omens such as astronomical signs. To say that you could tell the future this way would be similar to saying that a statue can be a god.

However, in an Otherworld, certain events could be preceded by all kinds of predictable patterns, which could be learned, and used, to predict those events.

Predictable patterns such as the rise and conjunction of astronomical signs.

It would be like predicting the turns of a disease.
Author:  Seer of Endor [ March 9th, 2011, 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Well put tsahraf. I think that could help Evening a lot!
Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ April 8th, 2012, 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
*loves the discussion here*

If you don't mind me asking, what did you end up doing, Evening?

*summons*
Author:  Evening L. Aspen [ April 8th, 2012, 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Uhh...I never finished this story, so I didn't really come up with a solution for my problem. :blush:
Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ April 8th, 2012, 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
Ah. Do you ever plan on finishing it ( :D ), or has the story taken up permenant residence in a wastebasket ( :( )?
Author:  Evening L. Aspen [ April 9th, 2012, 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I'm not sure at this point. Maybe if I get another wave of ideas, I'll get back to working on it.
Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ April 11th, 2012, 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
OK. *crosses fingers* :D
Author:  Gwendolyn [ August 12th, 2013, 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Astronomical Signs
I know its been a while since anyone posted on this thread, but this reminded me of the book East. Basically, the MC's mom is superstitious and believes that the direction you're facing when you give birth determines the child's personality, and obsesses about it. This is never confirmed or denied in the story, but it could be argued that her preoccupation with it all is what ends up driving her daughter to be who she is and triggering the story line.
So, you could have a character who, because the twins were born under such-and-such star, is convinced that they'll have this certain destiny, and that ends up triggering the events in the story (the villain, perhaps? ;) ). Just a thought :)
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