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 Post subject: Language based cobha
PostPosted: December 2nd, 2010, 9:09 pm 
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This thread is started partly on the behalf of Lady Eruwaedhiel who was asking about a magic system less Eragonesque.

I thought about Eragon very hard for a minute and said, "It's language based, right?"
Then, this being my method of brainstorming, I instantly went to think of all other language based magic systems and came up with D'ni from Myst.

The civilization of the D'ni developed their language to such a point that they came up with words that could describe concepts almost inconceivably in our language. It was called the Art, the ability to write links to other worlds because they understood the language that well. Just like in Eragon, the power was controlled by an ancient language.

So. What is your take on language based magic/cobha? Do you understand the ability to describe concepts beyond the capabilities of our language? Or do you see it to be a whole different thing?

Do you use a language based magic system? What other books use this? (as apposed to simply spell books, which I suppose could be the same thing, but I've never heard it explained that way.) What do you do to make your system unique? (that's a question specifically for Lady E. :D)

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: December 2nd, 2010, 10:29 pm 
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One of my races might have a language based cobha (if I've got the right definition of cobha in mind, that is), but I'm not sure. It might be more that they have power over fire and most of them have to/choose to vocalize commands...

I can't think of any other language based magic systems right now. I've read a book where you have to cast spells in a language other than your native one because otherwise they're way too powerful (which might have made the spell unstable or something...I can't quite remember why it was so bad to use your native language specifically), but that's not really the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: December 2nd, 2010, 11:08 pm 
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My magic/cobha is somewhat language based. The thinking of certain thoughts or saying certain words will generate a certain effect, but it is really only a mix of the dragon and man languages, or pure dragon. It has nothing to do with super-real words or out-of-world existences. Its essentially a science over there.

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:59 pm 
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In my world, magic is essence based. (Yes, despite my hatred for essence formatting, I use the concept in my storyline. :P)

LOL! It's based on the will of the magic user and how well they understand the essence of the element they are using.

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: December 4th, 2010, 11:03 pm 
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Eragon's system of magic is actually almost identical to that used by Ursula K. LeGuin in her Earthsea novels, in which spells rely on speaking the Old Speech (which Dragons speak and according to myths was the language used by the creator god to sing the world into existence). Everything and everyone has a true name in this Old Speech which they keep secret from everyone but their most trusted friends (unlike Eragon, everyone in Earthsea knows their true name). Also it's impossible for people to lie in the Old Speech. Sound familiar? The only real differences between Eragon-magic and Earthsea-magic are the stories of origins and the fact that it is the language of the Elves in Alagaesia and of the Dragons in Earthsea (which has no elves).

On another note, language-based-cobha almost implies to me that the laws of nature in a world are reliant upon language since cobha is the laws of nature in a fantasy world that differ from the laws of nature in our own. I know that's not what you were referring Vanya, but it is an interesting concept, a world where all the laws of nature can be manipulated by a certain language (I'll have to save that idea for a future world).

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 10th, 2011, 8:43 am 
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Middle Earth had that concept in several different ways.

I also use it in Ithelak (and Alronia and Cordime, its sister worlds) extensively.

In Ithelak, God originally spoke to the two first people in the Angelic tongue: the same tongue that He used to create the world, and with which the spirits communicate with each other and with Ithelak, controlling its essences. They had similar powers to the spirits because of their knowledge of the tongue, and used them to master and rule the world.

However, when they fell and the Curse came, God removed that tongue from their memory and gave them a mortal tongue.

Then, when their fourteen children were grown, God brought them together and gave each of the seven pairs a new language just for them, imbued with authority over one of the seven essences, thus dividing the power and responsibility up.

So at that point there were nine tongues, eight with power, and one without.

Then the darkness came, and war was forged, and with it was corrupted some of the tongues, with the aid of rebellious spirits, giving dark powers not meant to be had. With this power they ruled until Ithelak was covered with evil.

The Deluge purged the land, preserving fourteen alive, with the seven tongues held pristine and pure.

But over time darkness again crept into the hearts of the seven tribes, and they awakened the old tongues and began to mix the pure lordish tribes, diluting their power and mingling the tongues, stripping them of their authority.

The power inherent in the true tongues was God given; the dark tongues were corrupted versions intended for evil.

The history is possibly similar to both Eragon and Earthsea (which I did not know about), but perhaps the details make it unique enough. The implementation is different as well. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 10th, 2011, 1:56 pm 
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Actually it's nothing like either Earthsea or Eragon except for the fact that language is involved :D

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 10th, 2011, 2:12 pm 
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Seer wrote:
Actually it's nothing like either Earthsea or Eragon except for the fact that language is involved :D


Glad to know it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 11th, 2011, 3:12 pm 
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Wow, I'm impressed, Sir Emeth! It didn't remind me of Eragon at all. :)

In Arenia, I have a language based system, but it isn't strongly developed at all, which isn't good, since at least two of the MCs have to learn it. :P I do have a little bit, but it sounds an awful lot like Eragon, in my opinion.

They use a special language, but I don't know where the language came from, or why it has power. Basically, when they say the necessary words, they take whatever it is (fire, water, etc.) from their surroundings.

In other words, it's very un-original, and I have some work to do!

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 1:03 am 
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Vanya Katerina Jaynin wrote:
What do you do to make your system unique? (that's a question specifically for Lady E. )

Did Lady Eruwaedhiel answer the question elsewhere?

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 5:22 am 
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Good question, Sui...but, having found this thread now, thanks to you...I cannot resist but share a magic language system story... :D

In a lesser world, not the main one I'm working on, there are a few sources of "raw" magic which have nothing to do with language, and can be accessed through various means. Long ago, a civilization of magi devised a language in which words referred to different forms of raw magic and ways of accessing/channeling/manifesting them. This was so they could record the ways they used the magics to obtain useful results. At this time, the words themselves had no power; it was just like writing down music--you could "play back" the magic later, if you understood the language and could use all the necessary raw magic.

Because certain combinations of magic were so frequently used in larger spells, shorthand names were developed for these; in fact, many common spells had their own names and were usually referred to by them.

Later, the magi made a big discovery: they could create magical automata that could do magic for them. The automata had no being of their own; they operated on a simple input-output basis. Give a simple magic command, and the automaton would produce a more complex magical response, as essentially "programmed" into it. It turned out, however, that they could be made to recognize physical input, like the press of a button--or even the speaking of a word. It also turned out that they could produce arbitrarily complex responses--even casting a complete spell. Automata were programmed with useful word-spell combination responses and used in houses like appliances...now everyone could benefit from magic!

It occurred to one crazy genius that an automaton, in one of its responses, could include magically constructing and programming another automaton identical to itself. Or several. So, with complex rules on where and where not to construct new automata (it must be a certain depth underground, a certain distance away from the current one, and not if it would fall within the range of another existing automaton, etc.) the self-replicating, spell-casting-appliance automaton was unleashed on the world. If one were to be found and moved, it would self-destruct--and also send a signal which would ensure that another nearby automaton would create a replacement. The result was a nearly undetectable, nearly uneradicable network of automata that would perform spells for whomever knew the appropriate words.

This idea was, of course, used again later for politics and wars and secret societies and the like. Some networks were able to detect and destroy automata of other networks (leading to the probable eradication of the original network). Some networks can have stronger constraints on who could use them--perhaps race checks would be performed before granting the requested spell, perhaps the caster would have to be in physical contact with a special automaton (say, worn as a ring) for the network to respond.

Secretive, defensive networks tended to root out the more benign, available ones. And of course nobody ever released an automaton carrying the complete, original magic language. To do this would be to open up all magic for anyone's use--even the ability to create new self-replicating networks. Raw magic is still available for anyone to use (assuming they can), but now there is great advantage to knowing which networks lie beneath your feet and how to use them (assuming you can).

This is the first time I've hammered this idea out in so much detail! And I just realized that it sounds like an allegory for open-source and proprietary software. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 11:51 am 
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You are a genius, Cephron. :D Brilliant work and development there.


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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 7:59 pm 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
You are a genius, Cephron. :D Brilliant work and development there.

*completely agrees*

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 19th, 2012, 10:58 pm 
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:shock: That was amazing, Cephron!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 19th, 2012, 11:45 pm 
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Thanks, guys! :D

I actually developed that idea because I wanted to specifically avoid a world with a language of intrinsic power, like Seer was talking about earlier:
Seer wrote:
On another note, language-based-cobha almost implies to me that the laws of nature in a world are reliant upon language ... a world where all the laws of nature can be manipulated by a certain language
Especially since the commonly seen language-based spells seem rather arbitrary and without cosmic significance. If the language-invoked spells seem designed for human convenience, it would make sense to me that humans would have set up the system somehow.

Ursula LeGuin's naming-magic is neat, though. It has a consistent, cosmic sort of feel to it. I liked the Earthsea trilogy, especially the first book.

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 8:17 pm 
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The system cephron describes sounds very similar in concept to that of Rick Cook's Wizardry series (of which I have read the first two---Wizard's Bane and The Wizardry Compiled---via the Baen Free Library site), though developed along quite different lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Language based cobha
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 9:44 pm 
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*Reads Wizard's Bane synopsis* Bahaha, that's great! :rofl:

"when it comes to spells and sorcery...nobody can beat a Silicon Valley computer geek!"
--Sounds like a fun read, kingjon. I'll have to remember that author.

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Yet beauty takes shape within it,
And though birth may seem the end to those within,
It is but the beginning of something greater.


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