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Using Established Languages Appropriate?
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=244&t=1463		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ November 11th, 2010, 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I have a stereotype language for each of my races. For the Haethor, Spanish; for the Raechal, Chinese; for the Elvarians, (kudos to Airianna for the name :) ) Gaelic; Sivanis, German; Tulirans, French; Humans, differing dialects of English. A combination of Latin and Greek serves for my language that controls Magic. (Yes, that is Eragon-ish. I know. :roll: )

As a reader you only see select phrases of a few of my (stolen) foreign tongues and for some not at all. While my characters are using magic there are some sentences chanted. Seer came up with a name for me that was taken from Greek. One of my characters curses frequently in Gaelic. Many of my various names are taken from the aforementioned languages.

I wondered, seeing all the creativity in this forum, is it worth my while to go ahead and create languages for the few instances we see them used? Or do I go ahead, cringe, and use my stolen phrases, hoping no one will notice?

Thoughts and advice are appreciated, as always. ;)

Lady E
Author:  Elanhil [ November 12th, 2010, 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I don't see any problem with just using the languages. However, people will notice. A way to deal with this could include modifying them slightly, so that they are similar, but not identical.
Author:  Lady Elanor [ November 12th, 2010, 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I think people will notice, but I don't know if it would really matter. I speak spanish so when reading a book I would be able to tell if someone spoke in spanish; would it matter to you though that we knew your characters spoke in different real word languages? I liked Elanhil's idea though, of modifying them slightly as if you didn't want them to speak real world languages this would solve the problem :)
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ November 12th, 2010, 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I'm glad you like the name Eruwaedhiel.

Most people won't know you are using a real language. For the most part Americans only know English. However, lots of people recognize Spanish words. I think altering the languages slightly would be really neat. This gives them the same basic structure, but a slightly different flare.

How often would your characters use these languages, and how will you handle translating what they say?
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ November 16th, 2010, 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Oh, I like the idea. I really like the idea. And I think it's much more realistic than creating your own language. No one knows Gaelic anyway, and Latin is kind of... expected? It makes sense. and if I know enough Greek to know what you're chanting it's going to be thrilling, and if I don't know Greek I'm not going to know the difference. I personally am against changing the words slightly, because then you'll be able to recognize it as Spanish, but it won't make any sense, so it will look like you don't know what you're writing. :roll:

I say, leave it the way you've got it. And don't feel like you're being uncreative. :D
Author:  Whythawye [ December 28th, 2010, 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Honestly, I like the idea. Although I would recognize the languages instantly, even though I don't speak any of them. (And yes, I am one of those guys who studies languages enough to tell the difference between Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, or between Tamil and Sanskrit, so maybe that doesn't tell you much.)

The thing is, I don't see that as a real problem. Some people make their own languages, others borrow. If you don't have a portal to our world in the story, no one will think it is 'unrealistic.' (If you do have a portal, for heaven's sake, don't let anyone speak English!) It is obviously a different place.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ December 28th, 2010, 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Thanks, Emeth. That's good to know. Jaynin's post cracked me up, but she does have a point. I do have to combine or invent words sometimes with other words from the languages that have the same 'feel', because the online translators I use are sometimes woefully inadequate. :? Hatchling, for instance. I also combine words to make names for things. I'm still torn about whether or not to include the chants (of which there aren't many) as accurate examples of the Latin or Greek.

Nope, no inter-dimensional or inter-world portals. I do have some portals that were invented to take you to other places in the country they were constructed, but to go anywhere else requires too much energy (since it does have a price, and a high one.)

**thinks she needs a topic about her portals**
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 28th, 2010, 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
It's great to use languages that fit your race's character. My fish people have a Hawaiian based language. My little secret for a language that really isn't new is etymology. Find a word, plug it in to a thesaurus if it's roots aren't interesting enough, and look up it's roots. I've made up loads of words this way and if you tweak them just a little they're harder to trace but still feel like the word. Does that make sense?
Author:  The Bard [ January 1st, 2011, 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Sorry if this sounds mean, but I think it's a terrible idea. Sure, borrowing from real languages is fine (even Tolkien did that to an extent) but not just straight forward use. People will notice and probably make fun of it.
Sometimes it's best to just write something like, "He chanted a ancient spell in the tongue of old and a glow light burst forth in the room." You don't ever really have to use it (though it's fun to make your own!)

~Joe~
Author:  Neil of Erk [ January 2nd, 2011, 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
brinkstrigg wrote:
Sorry if this sounds mean, but I think it's a terrible idea. Sure, borrowing from real languages is fine (even Tolkien did that to an extent) but not just straight forward use. People will notice and probably make fun of it.


Notice it, no. If you borrow from a less known language, especially an African or South American language, your average reader will not notice. It hasn't been tried enough for us to say what the reaction from educated critics would be.

Personally, I would prefer that authors either invest their time in inventing a quality language. But if they can't, or won't, then they should use a real language, rather than creating the very common, very poor invented languages that most authors use.

I prefer a real language over a bad invented language.

brinkstrigg wrote:
Sometimes it's best to just write something like, "He chanted a ancient spell in the tongue of old and a glow light burst forth in the room." You don't ever really have to use it (though it's fun to make your own!)


Now here's the problem. If you don't invent a language, then where do you get your place and character names from? Either nonsense words, or English. If you make up nonsense words, then inconsistencies between names and other such problems will arise.

If you use English words or words that could be English words (like C.S. Lewis) then you need to have a reasonable explanation. So far, only Lewis and Tolkien have had reasonable explanations for that sort of thing.

You can avoid all that trouble by using another language, preferably a poorly known one. This also allows you the advantage of a preexisting lexicon.
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ January 3rd, 2011, 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
'course, I've got my own set of ideas on actually making up a whole language, whether it's worth the time, whether it even works, or if it should be attempted by anyone who's not a linguist. :roll:

But maybe that should go in another thread...
Author:  Neil of Erk [ January 3rd, 2011, 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Vanya Katerina Jaynin wrote:
'course, I've got my own set of ideas on actually making up a whole language, whether it's worth the time, whether it even works, or if it should be attempted by anyone who's not a linguist. :roll:

But maybe that should go in another thread...


Is it worth the time? I'm not sure. I haven't finished.

Does it work? Yes. Klingon, Loglan, and Quenya are great examples.

And, most linguists despise invented languages. But the few that don't mind have given us wonderful books about how to do it.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ January 3rd, 2011, 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I think this is an excellent idea, and it would add a level of interest to me as a reader. For anyone interested in the research, they could look up your phrases and see the real meaning. Which would be fun, though potentially a problem with the Gaelic curses. :shock:

I agree with the others. It is vastly preferable to use an established language as opposed to faking a poorly developed imaginary one. There is also a recurring benefit to studying real-world languages, because their use has application IRL.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ January 3rd, 2011, 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
LOL Phili, the curses only mean "ill luck" or some such. It's nothing especially foul. :P
Author:  The Bard [ January 3rd, 2011, 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I probably wouldn't mind if it was obscure languages but Spanish, Latin German, ect. would stick out to most people like a sore thumb.
Author:  Elanhil [ January 4th, 2011, 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
brinkstrigg wrote:
I probably wouldn't mind if it was obscure languages but Spanish, Latin German, ect. would stick out to most people like a sore thumb.
But that's not her point. She's not trying to hide the fact that they are real languages, she's using the real languages to add to the essence of her races.
Author:  The Bard [ January 4th, 2011, 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I know what the point was. I just don't agree with it :rofl:
Author:  Elanhil [ January 4th, 2011, 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
brinkstrigg wrote:
I know what the point was. I just don't agree with it :rofl:
Oh, now I see. :D Well, agree with it. It's a good point. ;) jk
Author:  The Bard [ January 6th, 2011, 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I just think it would be to distracting. Unless it was plot point and this world was linked somehow to ours.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ January 6th, 2011, 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Ah. It's not.
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ January 9th, 2011, 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
For some inexplicable reason I am now desperately curious as to what you decided... :?
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ January 10th, 2011, 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
Haven't, yet. I'll work it out as I edit. It's not that prominent, anyway.
Author:  PrincessoftheKing [ January 11th, 2011, 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I really like the idea! It adds a lot of depth to your story, especially since you're using so many different languages.
Author:  Bethany Faith [ February 4th, 2011, 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I like the idea of using real world languages for your races. In a book that I am working on I'm planning on having a few of my races to speak Russian as their base language, because I think having different languages in a fantasy book really adds depth. :D

On a different note in a different book I'm writing a lot of my names and places have words that I have invented using Spanish root words (since my mom is Hispanic I know a lot of Spanish, even though I don't speak it fluently) and Hebrew words for names too. So it really depends on what you want to do if you want to use the languages without altering them or if you feel the need to just use them as the basic words.

Sorry if this makes no sense, just thought I'd comment. :)

Bethany Faith
Author:  Aldara [ August 19th, 2011, 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Established Languages Appropriate?
I'm doing it...
However, I'm using languages people won't recognise as much. That fewer people will speak as a second language or something. There are some people who know all sorts of languages and thus will be able to pick up on any grammar mistakes you make in languages you can't speak, but most people will be limited to two or so. Thus, I would never use French or Spanish because people will recognise them (at least, I will, and I'm not at all fluent in Spanish.). I'm using Filipino and Irish. We also have Latin.

It can be done well. If you read the Rangers Apprentice series, you'll notice that all the cultures are based on real-life cultures. The only culture where I can remember him using the actual language for full sentences is the French one (it's been a while, I can't remember names) but it adds to the story. It can be done, and if you don't use the ones people really notice it won't bother people. At least, it doesn't bother me.
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