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Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
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Author:  JTO [ July 17th, 2013, 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
So, I'm in the throes of writing a high fantasy novel series (4 books), and there's a lot of Christian symbolism going into the book. I began to think about having outright Christianity in a high fantasy novel however, and realized that the HF novels I hear people describe as Christian like LOTR and Narnia don't have any blatant Christianity in them, like people praying to God, getting saved by Jesus, the Holy Trinity, etc, just symbolism and Christian morals. So I was wondering if there were any Christian high fantasy novels out there with outright Christianity, where it's really obvious to non-believers even that it's a Christian novel. I see high fantasy novels being sold in Christian book stores but haven't picked any up, and while I've read some high fantasy, I'm not an expert and don't know of any stories like I'm asking you about. I'm not saying that novels like LOTR or Narnia are bad, I was just wondering since I'm writing mine, how much I will be putting in, if I'll only be going the sybolic route, or if I'll actually have a character coming to know and love God as part of the character's main development throughout the series.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Author:  Mistress Kidh [ July 18th, 2013, 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Summa Elvetica by Theodore Beale is what you might call high fantasy, and the Catholic-like Christianity in it is mixed up with the main plot idea. It's a modern book. It's the only one I can think of at the moment.

Oh, and there is a book written by a HWer that is also the same way, except not Catholic – A Knight from Dein by Peter R Stone. :) I am not sure I like exactly how he implemented the spiritual aspect of the story (it seemed too plot-serving to me), but Christianity is certainly a prominent part of the story.

Binding of the Blade by L B Graham (another book I wasn't too thrilled over, but which was fine) is another one, come to think of it. God is referred to by the name 'Allfather'. However, I don't believe Christianity in its modern form was present since at that point in time here had been no incarnation of a Messiah. It's also modern.

Actually, I believe that most of the high fantasy I've ever heard of with Christianity an obvious part of it are modern. It was much more subtle in most of the older fantasy I've read.

Although I don't write purely High Fantasy, usually, one of my fantasy stories does include a conversion of one of the MCs. Christianity would be the corresponding religion in this world to what he was converted to. The Christian element in that one certainly doesn't correspond to the Westernized style of Christian worship and religion (I dislike it when a fantasy story does that), however the actual beliefs and fundamentals are the same.
Author:  JTO [ July 18th, 2013, 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
I also don't just write high fantasy, but as my first attempt at writing a publishable book, I thought I'd give it a try as this story has been floating around my head for some years now.

While my characters have encounters with believers throughout the series, the main character is not the one I was concerned with in regards to outright Christianity or belief in God. It was a secondary character that drops off at the end of book three while the rest continue on in book 4. He's an interesting character... a runaway slave who only wants to be free and will stop at nothing to get this, and in the end, he finds himself servant to the Lord, and he doesn't mind that at all. There are angels in my story, good and bad, as well as some other things straight out of the Bible.

Thanks for your take.
Author:  Aratrea [ July 20th, 2013, 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Wayne Thomas Batson has outright Christianity in three high fantasy series: The Door Within (allegory like Narnia), Curse of the Spiderking Series, and the excellent Dark Annals series.

There are many others that I'm not as familiar with. I think that it isn't terribly uncommon, however, to have outright Christianity in high fantasy.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ August 2nd, 2013, 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
I find outright Christianity offputting. I am a born-again Christian, I love my savior and what he's done for me, I strive to put the gospel at the center of my life, but not my fantasy novels. Or any of my novels.

In the current draft, my novel has prayers. It has a salvation scene, and it has a Creator. The first two are hitting the chopping block in the latest draft. While I'm keeping the Creator, there will not be overt salvation in my book. There will be trust, and other values that are important to me and reflect my Christianity.

Do I think Christianity is important? Absolutely. But I don't think that a novel is the best place to put it in. I've never seen overt Christianity that's not preachy and annoying (a few novels have come close -- some HWers included, actually). All it does is put people off. If someone is truly searching for the gospel, they're not going to go looking in a novel.

If someone wants to hear about The story, I'm open to tell them. But I'll tell them face-to-face, not in a novel. My novels are to tell good stories. They reflect The story that God is working in my life and all of our lives. But they can't mirror that story.

So I keep my writing overtly-Christian-free. If they want symbols and subtle stuff, I've got that in buckets, because my faith is a part of me, and I can't disentangle it. But over-the-head stuff, not for me.

Andrew
Author:  Aratrea [ August 6th, 2013, 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
I feel like a lot of outright Christianity in high fantasy often hurts the book and impedes the story. I'm not exactly sure why it is. One of my guesses, though, is that too often the Christian characters are either perfect, or will be by the end of the book. There aren't enough questionable Christian characters. (Hence, one of the reasons I like Wayne Thomas Batson's Dark Sea Annals, since there are a couple interestingly flawed "Christian" individuals.) I also think that Christian fantasy writers lean on the "Christian" side of their book rather than focusing it on making it a good story first. I really believe that you can write an outright Christian fantasy novel that's really good. But there are few outright Christian fantasy novels that really meet that mark, from the perspective of the quality of the story itself.
Author:  Mistress Kidh [ August 7th, 2013, 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Andrew wrote:
If someone wants to hear about The story, I'm open to tell them. But I'll tell them face-to-face, not in a novel. My novels are to tell good stories. They reflect The story that God is working in my life and all of our lives. But they can't mirror that story.
I understand what you are talking about here, but I was wondering: what if the audience for your book is Christian, and the inclusion of blatantly Christian elements is not for evangelical reasons, merely present because they are part of the story – hopefully a good story? Might it not be pleasant for a Christian to read a story about the redemption of a character as much as it is pleasant for anyone to read a story of love or loyalty or romance? (I am withholding my own opinions, but I just thought I'd ask about your take on those questions.)
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ August 7th, 2013, 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
My opinion is that stories like that are far stronger face-to-face. I have yet to find a fictional story of redemption (mind you, we're talking blatant, open 'get-saved' redemption here) that can even hold a candle to real life. I can't do it justice. I've not met any who can, either.

I put redemption in my stories. But it's always an echo, a whisper. Christians will see it, and hopefully appreciate it. Non-christians may be intrigued by it. I hope they will be. But I just can't do justice to the Story of redemption with my echoes.
Author:  Mistress Kidh [ August 8th, 2013, 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Ah, I see. I think I understand.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ August 8th, 2013, 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
For myself, my life experiences have led me to the conclusion that the only practical solution to anything is God. Since then, I really can't keep Him out of my writing.
Author:  Aratrea [ August 8th, 2013, 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Lady Kitra Skene wrote:
For myself, my life experiences have led me to the conclusion that the only practical solution to anything is God. Since then, I really can't keep Him out of my writing.


This is true. However, there are different extents of outright Christianity. There's still very much a "Christian" background in The Lord of the Rings, but it is nowhere near as explicit as it is in say, The Chronicles of Narnia. Given that a whole book of the Bible (Esther) is devoid of references to God while remaining very Christian, I think it's safe to say that stories do not have to be explicitly Christian. They should remain at least implicitly Christian, since you don't want to remove God from your writing, but you can still write from a Christian framework and background while not having explicit signs and characters in your book that portray it.
Author:  kingjon [ August 9th, 2013, 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
JTO wrote:
if I'll only be going the sybolic route, or if I'll actually have a character coming to know and love God as part of the character's main development throughout the series.

I'd like to emphasize that these are not the only choices. "Getting saved" or "coming to know ... God" (in the sense that it's something other than the journey of a whole life) is not the sum total of Christianity, and there's as great if not a greater need for stories rooted in the far vaster truths than "yet another conversion story." (For "Christian fiction" to be limited to stories of conversion would be like fiction in general to be limited to stories about young children.)

In my own work, for example, is largely set in an explicitly Christian society; the world was initially settled by people from our world who stumbled through portals, and they were predominantly Christian.
Author:  Lady Elanor [ September 16th, 2013, 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Lady Kitra Skene wrote:
For myself, my life experiences have led me to the conclusion that the only practical solution to anything is God. Since then, I really can't keep Him out of my writing.


*Nods* Same here, I think as Christians this is always going to come across in our writings, even if not directly.
Aratrea wrote:
They should remain at least implicitly Christian, since you don't want to remove God from your writing, but you can still write from a Christian framework and background while not having explicit signs and characters in your book that portray it.


Exactly, and I think that for many this is what would happen anyway; even if only indirectly, I think that as Christians it's impossible to not show some form of Christianity through our writings, even if it is indirectly.
Author:  Rinothean [ September 16th, 2013, 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Lady Kitra Skene wrote:
For myself, my life experiences have led me to the conclusion that the only practical solution to anything is God. Since then, I really can't keep Him out of my writing.


This is a great statement and I wholeheartedly agree. For me God has become so important to myself and my writing, I can't keep Him out. I do understand how an outright Christian novel can turn people away, but it all depends on how it is being written, and more importantly if the novel does come out as more outright, remember our trust and faith is in God if He has a purpose for your novel then it will succeed no matter what...He is the God of Impossibility after all.

I am not saying neglect the other parts of writing like the story and the characters. Both of which are some of the basic parts of a novel.

I am currently in the midst of writing my first fantasy novel, and for me I tend think about my own Christian walk, and the lessons I have learned, thanks to God of course which helps in my writing.
Author:  Resha Caner [ September 17th, 2013, 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Andrew wrote:
My opinion is that stories like that are far stronger face-to-face. I have yet to find a fictional story of redemption (mind you, we're talking blatant, open 'get-saved' redemption here) that can even hold a candle to real life. I can't do it justice. I've not met any who can, either.


I don't mean to pick on this statement because I've felt much the same about many of the stories I've read that make salvation too overt.

But have you ever read George MacDonald? I'm reading The Maiden's Bequest, the first time I've read him ... and I love it. So far I like MacDonald better than Chesterton or C.S. Lewis. He makes God feel such a natural part of the story that it just wouldn't be complete without the religious themes. Everything flows so beautifully that the spiritual growth of the characters in the story just seems perfect.

Sorry. Am I gushing? If you can't tell, I like his work so far.
Author:  BushMaid [ September 18th, 2013, 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
I really like your first post, Andrew. Spot on. I have read one salvation story in fiction that was done without seeming preachy, and that was Echo in the Darkness by Francine Rivers, but then, the character had been pushed to the very edge, which made it a lot more realistic.

In my scifi trilogy (I plan to write sometime before I die :roll:) there may be a salvation theme of sorts in the last book, along with God as the Creator, since my trilogy is very time travel based. I need to address the "in controlness" of God in some way since my characters are going to seem at the mercy of an android that can send people through time, but I know it will have to be done carefully, or else it will sound preachy.

I think the thing to ask yourself about outright Christianity in fiction is: what story am I telling? Refer to your logline and figure out just what the MC is doing, and where the story is going to go. Is it, boy meets girl, they have difficulties but live happily ever after? Is it gang meets evil government they must overthrow? Define what story it is your telling in its simplest form, and then ask yourself: what Christian themes will support this story best, and not detract from it? If you focus on the story, your themes and values will write themselves into it automatically.
Author:  Leandra Falconwing [ September 18th, 2013, 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
BushMaid wrote:
I think the thing to ask yourself about outright Christianity in fiction is: what story am I telling? Refer to your logline and figure out just what the MC is doing, and where the story is going to go. Is it, boy meets girl, they have difficulties but live happily ever after? Is it gang meets evil government they must overthrow? Define what story it is your telling in its simplest form, and then ask yourself: what Christian themes will support this story best, and not detract from it? If you focus on the story, your themes and values will write themselves into it automatically.

I really like this point, Bush, and kingjon's earlier about how conversion-type stories aren't the only option for "Christian fiction." If your Christian themes and message are completely separate from the rest of the plot, it's going to be clunky and probably "preachy," too. It needs to be a natural part of the plot to feel natural and right.

And you can probably start from the other end, too, if that's what you know you want. If you have these themes you want to portray in your story, what plot will work best them them, and not detract from either the message or the story?
Author:  Mistress Kidh [ September 19th, 2013, 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Resha Caner wrote:
But have you ever read George MacDonald? I'm reading The Maiden's Bequest, the first time I've read him ... and I love it. So far I like MacDonald better than Chesterton or C.S. Lewis. He makes God feel such a natural part of the story that it just wouldn't be complete without the religious themes. Everything flows so beautifully that the spiritual growth of the characters in the story just seems perfect.

Sorry. Am I gushing? If you can't tell, I like his work so far.
I just squished the desire to ramble on and on about this. George MacDonald is one of my favorite authors, and yet I almost never meet someone who has read one of his books. It's even less common to meet someone who has read one of his novels which are not fantasy (like Princess and the Goblin, At the Back of the North Wind, and so on). I would love to talk to you about George MacDonald sometime, Resha....
Author:  VarTalman [ February 12th, 2014, 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
Okay - somewhat on topic...

Hobbit Desolation of Smaug (film v. book)

I am actually surprised that Peter Jackson's film added intentionally Biblical imagery to the tale. The huge Nebucahdnezzar's statue of gold, the fiery furnace, "we are legion." - are not all of these add-ins not in the book?

What inspiration drives Peter Jackson to do this?

That leads to a second question -- how does nearly every American major motion picture every created contain Scripture or imagery in it?

-V
Author:  Neil of Erk [ February 12th, 2014, 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outright Christianity in High Fantasy?
To me, invoking the words High Fantasy implies that you will not use symbolism.

On the other hand, you can have outright Christianity without just copying Christian over from our world into your imaginary one. Instead, think of it as translating: you keep the meaning, but change language. Sometimes your translation can be literal (you keep the sacraments, for example), or your translation could be more ideational (you replace the sacraments with a different practice that serves a similar purpose but makes more sense for your world).

In my novel, my world is in a First Covenant era. However, some of the history is different (no Flood, for example, although there was a somewhat similar catastrophe), as are some of the needs (there are multiple sentient races with different spiritual relationships with each other), so rather than just copying all of our covenant law, I've made creative changes where I felt it was appropriate. While their Covenant is certainly not our Covenant, readers will easily see the connection.
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