This is a topic to discuss different issues that we might encounter and how to deal with them. For example: violence, drinking, gambling and witchcraft.

For me, I usually include a lot of violence. My writing is centered around a battle, 95% of the time, so violence is extremely common. But I also struggle with whether I am glorifying war too much, if at all.

Another thing I wonder about is drinking. In medieval culture, drinking would have been very common, but I don't want to endorse it. Still, it really hurts a banquet scene when they're drinking water or cider instead of wine. My one character visits a pub, and I was forced to include drinking then. Was I right to do that, or what should I have done?

Well..I do not believe it is wrong to drink, as long as you don't get drunk. I think as soon as you are addicted, or losing your senses, that it becomes sin, but really, Jesus drank wine. And if the situation calls for it, I have absolutely no problem with it.

When it comes to violence, I think that a certain level of description, really awakens in readers the realization of how cold, and slippery, and terrible war is.

I do not think violence is bad, because it is just something unavoidable in the world, but you should also think about the age group you are writing to when you are describing wars and such. Don't be too gory if writing a young adults book.
I say it's unavoidable and yet I hate when others say that to me about cussing or something of that nature. Yes, it's something that happens around us daily, but don't advocate evil and don't use something like that if it isn't necessary (which is why cussing makes me so mad... it is NEVER necessary)

Drinking is normally wrong, but I generally accept it in fantasy stories because in medieval times (yes, there are other types of fantasy, but this is the type I prefer) it was very common. They drank wine with everything, but they also knew how to use it in moderation.
Oh, and yes, Jesus turned water to wine even though the Bible says not to get drunk, but there were two kinds of wine. Strong drink, and more watered down wine. He wasn't making a strong, intoxicating drink. Buuuuut that's a discussion for another time.

Gambling is wrong, but is also something that happened in medieval times. I prefer if only evil charries gamble, but there are times when it is acceptable.

God doesn't like witchcraft, therefore I only allow the evil charries in my story to use magic and such. I think that evil charries can do whatever they want, pretty much, because since they are evil their actions are going to be evil anyway.

Now I can share my opinion.

I have no problem with violence. God allowed the Israelites to butcher animals for sacrifices and there were many wars in the OT.

I do not think drinking is acceptable, but occasionally I have to mention my characters drinking, but only when it can't be avoided.

I've included gambling once, and that was as a fault for my second favorite character. Trust me, his fiance gives him grief about it.

I don't use witchcraft/magic at all, but I have an alternate form, Dreshna, and my seers (kind of like wizards) can "use" nature, a gift from their God.

I also think drinking REALLY depends on the setting of the book. If I were writing a contemporary, I don't think I would have a Christian character going to a bar, simply because it would give the appearance of the world.

However, in medieval times, as you stated drinking didn't have a worldly, sinful connotation as much. (especially because a lot of times the water carried diseases) In that case I would say that a character going to a tavern, it would be fine, especially since saloons also doubled as hotels, and restaurants.

Good point, Mindy. I often say that they "entered the tavern and enjoyed their food and drink" without specifying excactly what that was.

That works pretty well if you handle it right.

How a writer handles this situation depends primarily on what he/she believes is right or wrong in real life, of course. That topic is out of the scope of this forum, I believe, but the application can be discussed.

Characters are not perfect, and they will sin through ignorance many times. You do not have to tack a moral onto every tiny infraction, but you can imply from the wording where you stand. If you are brutally honest with the results of sin, then that should be enough when it comes to licentious drinking, if you ask me. Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense. While I do have some of my characters drink, I also have a character who, as a drunk, ruined both his, and his family's lives.

I have a female character (Liagiba ) who is trying to spy in an enemy country and enters a bar hoping to glean information. She only results in getting drunk, and I very clearly demonstrate the bad repercussions of the drinking. It really shows her imperfection. The same with the gambling--Eiram gambles, but loses a lot of money. Plus, Lia get's really mad at him.

Okay, here are my current opinions.

I think think that violence is necessary. It is a part of the world, and without it a story seems idealistic and I'm unable to relate to it, so any important messages don't get across. However, I don't think any age group needs a bunch of gory details. I prefer focusing on the effects of violence, rather than the acts. Showing how violence is destructive physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually does not advocate it. Rather, it sends the message that violence is wrong and unavoidable, and therefore shows that the people committing the violence are imperfect beings.

I agree that, in a medieval fantasy, at least, drinking is also necessary. Many people drank some form of alcohol at that time, mostly because a lot of the water was, well, rather disgusting. I think that having drunk characters is alright, too, as long as, like violence, the drunkenness is shown as a destructive and wrong state. Gambling is fine with me, too, if the above limits are met.

I do not like to see cuss words in a story. What I've seen some authors do (and what I prefer to do) is say something like. "The hammer struck his thumb with a dull smack. Gregory cursed and dropped the offending hammer on his foot." Saying that a character cursed, rather than using the actual word, gives about the same effect without offending the reader.

I have witchcraft in my fantasy stories. I do not have any protagonists using it for good. In my books, I define all "magic" as witchcraft/sorcery/black arts, and I make sure that all my characters that use it can use it only for destructive and ultimately evil ends. So far, I have one main character who uses it. He becomes the protagonist when he gives up sorcery, but until then I show how the evil in the magic consumes and changes him for the worse.

Basically, I think that if a bad habit is shown (without too much description) as destructive, then I think it's okay to put it in books. Actually, I believe that Christian authors should put such things in their books, in order to argue the fact that what the secular writers show as a "cool" thing can actually destroy lives. Unless, of course, if the story is for children. I think that children's books do not need the same amount of serious, dark issues that books for young adults and older require, if that makes any sense. Not to say that children's books should be all fun and games; they just don't need the message in the same way, but I think that's a slightly different topic.
So, to summarize my summary: I think that all the habits discussed above are acceptable in stories as long as they are portrayed from a Christian point of view.

I refuse to read anything that has cuss words in it. I can't stand it.
I've said before that a charrie cursed, but I didn't go into detail or tell what word they used.



That's what I do too. I don't let my good charries use magic, because I don't want to make it sound like I'm okay with witchcraft/magic.

The only time I use anything magically related is Ignesia, which I clearly define and label as "unmagical". I read some book with cuss words in them, but I have a number. If it exceeds that number of serious cuss words (other than like "gosh" or "heck"), then I throw the book away. I never use cuss words, I'll say like "He cursed under his breath" or "She muttered a few obscenities".

I think violence is necessary in a fantasy story, at least most of the time. It just shouldn't be portrayed as good. The same thing goes for drinking in medieval settings.
I don't think cuss words are ever necessary. I just write something like, "He muttered a string of curses under his breath." I try to keep my main characters from doing even that, though.
And in my stories, magic is always a gift from God to the people. Witchcraft is only acceptable for evil characters.

That sounds like how I do it, PotK. Usually only my evil characters do that, or those "on the line" characters that aren't really good or bad but have some characteristics of both.

Well...if there's cussing, but otherwise it's a REALLY good book, then I go through it and mark everything out with a pen. And usually the sentence makes just as much sense afterwards.

Same here. I'll read books with cussing in them, (many of the people I know cuss) I just don't agree with it.

I agree with most of the things everyone is saying here. But there are two kinds of magic in my story: yup, you guessed it, good and evil. My good characters CAN and DO use magic, and the evil characters as well. Quintor (God) gives humans, dragonriders, and elves magic abilities. Magic is allowed (not a sin), but it can be abused. I have my good characters using magic, but not abusing it.

As for violence, I hold the same opinion as most of the others who have posted here. It is wrong, but necessary for a good story. And as long as it is portrayed as wrong or merely as protecting yourself (or home or family...etc) I don't have a problem with it.

Same with the cursing and the beer/ale/wine.

I'm going to slightly disagree with the general sentiment expressed, that there is nothing wrong with including the mentioned vices if portrayed from the Christian perspective. I always ask myself one very important question: What sort of book did Jesus write.

It's always good to remember that Jesus wrote the Bible.

Yes, the Bible mentions, even sometimes describes, some very evil acts, but not the degree that is prevalent as I find it to be in most modern Christian writing. And we can't generalize about these subjects. Each individual instance needs to be handled in its own way.

I agree with you, if I understand you right. We cannot generalize; we need to use a Christian perspective; and we need to think about what is glorifying to God.

I'm just starting with my novel (or book, or whatever it becomes), but I know that I will use some form of magic. I'm thinking that the power to use magic over nature (and possibly the elements) will be a gift given by God to His most faithful followers. He will only give it to certain people so that it won't be abused. But there will be some sort of sorcery that evil characters try to use to control elements, nature and even other people. This will be portrayed as bad, while the good magic is portrayed as good since it is a gift from their God. God gives the power to them so that they can defeat the evil and accomplish what he sets for them.

I don't really have a problem with drinking, so long as being drunk is portrayed as destructive and sinful. I, however, am totally against cussing and won't read a book that contains it. I'll probably just go with "He muttered a curse under his breath" or something like that.

Violence is big part of fantasy stories! As long as it is not too graphic and gory, it's fine with me. I just want to make sure that I portray war as destructive. It's not something to be rejoiced over.

I don't really have a problem with gambling, but I don't think that it is good. I don't mind reading it in a book as long as it is not made to seem good.

Sir Emeth: Exactly.

Everyone: You've all been saying "as long as it's not portrayed as RIGHT" But I think the problem is any time a sin is not portrayed as wrong. I might not portray lying as right, but if I don't portray it as wrong, then I've got a problem. You see, if I don't say something is wrong, but I describe the thing itself, then it's like I'm lying, in a way.

I think the question is: What constitutes condoning something in writing? Do you have to show every sin being punished every time to avoid condoning it? Remember that we do not see sin being punished every time on earth: many times it has to wait until we get to heaven. Does that mean that God condones sin?

I think that violence is fine as long as it is portrayed as evil unless it is used to protect.

I also agree with Neil of Erik that something must be portrayed as wrong if it is wrong in the Bible.

I abhor cussing. It is true that I do read books that have a few cuss words in them, but there is a certain limit over which I won't read a book.

Drinking I wouldn't put in any book unless it is the evil character that is doing it. Unless, of course the charrie doesn't actually get drunk. Gambling is I wouldn't use either.

I can't stand cussing... I was reading a manga once that was good (well, depending on your point of view, I guess.... anybody here ever read/watched Higurashi? Lots of blood and junk like that, honestly...) except for the language. I got to about the fifth or sixth chapter and finally had to stop reading it because the language was getting progressively worse (or maybe I was just noticing it more?) The first couple of words I shrugged off because they weren't horrible, but then they started dropping the f-bomb. Yeah, I never even considered reading that one again...
But that's kind of off-topic :P

I have an idea for a book that I am going to start eventually (maybe in November... I'll have to wait and see), and the main character actually drinks at first, although I don't really get into that very much (If I ever write about a main character having some sort of problem like that, it's always more a background thing anyway that they eventually see what's wrong with it and get over it). I'll have to see how that works out...

(Yes, I know this thread is old...)

My two cents on negative elements:

I will not use any bad language in anything I write. It disgusts me.
(On the other hand, if I had my own copies of the Space Trilogy, I'd just scribble out the language 'cause the books were so good.)

Violence is...well...I like to focus on emotions involved. Blood/etc makes me squirm. In movies, I stick with Narnia-level violence. Even though I have been told that it's so unrealistic... oh well, who cares? I ain't writing for the 'realistic' audience.

Drinking: haven't had to deal with it. Traditionally, in Narnia/LotR, I have ignored it, writing it off to culture. I think that the whole Temperance movement was mainly American in the past century anyway. (temperance as in the Christian trait has always been around, of course, but the word means 'moderation in everything' not just 'abstaining from alcoholic beverages'...)

Gambling: never dealt with it - I was taught that it wasn't sinful, only stupid, though.

Other random things: I focus on one 'sin' that is going to be righted by the end of the book. I strive to make sure my characters do not make the end justify the means, which means no lying, stealing, etc to get what they want...but that one 'sin' is okay to have in because we're dealing with it - that's the character arc.
Perfect characters stink. Awful characters are non-sympathetic or else condone sin. There is a balance.

I would disagree. The Bible says to be a good steward of what is given to you. Risking God's gifts recklessly isn't being a good steward.

There are lots of ways to risk God's gifts recklessly, not just restricted to gambling.

For example, is it a sin to skydive or hangglide (which is widely considered reckless, risking your life, which is a gift from God)?

If that is true, you are admitting that it is a sin to gamble. Plus, the root of gambling is greed. The root of hang-gliding and skydiving is trying to enjoy God's creation.

I don't mean to sound antagonistic.

I didn't have enough time this morning to properly reply--busy with the reenactment...

Anyway, I don't mean to sound antagonistic either.

Mmm, did I ever say that 'risking God's gifts recklessly' was a sin? I repeat myself: stupid, but not a sin.

As a side point, the root of gambling is not necessarily greed. The definition of greed is "wanting more and more and not ever having enough" (okay, that's not catchechism-worthy...but you get my point). Some people gamble because they - foolishly - think that by risking a bit, they can gain enough to make ends meet. Don't label it all as greed. There are varying motivations.

And to be a tiny bit antagonistic, I have heard such dangerous sports defined as for people who just want another thrill, another rush of adrenaline... I'm not necessarily agreeing with that viewpoint, though I will say that it's a little hard to enjoy God's creation when one is clinging to a hangglider for dear life... (okay, okay, I'm just scared of heights, that's all... )

So while I would have no hesitation showing gambling as stupid, risky, reckless, and foolish; I would have hesitation showing it as inherently evil, and a sin.

::gets distracted from writing post for a few minutes::

Oh, great, where was I...?

I think I'll sum up and maintain my position that being reckless (whether by gambling, thrill sports, or heroic rescues) is not a sin in and of itself, just (99% of the time) stupid.

Oh, there was the other thought, I found it.

Recklessness as a sin (that is the position you were advocating, correct?) does not work very well if you consider that sometimes you have to be reckless to accomplish the Right Thing. i.e. storming the castle, rescuing the fair maiden in distress, maybe even jumping head over heels into an internet Easter play when you don't know what the next 4 months holds? Recklessness is not really defined by the action, it is defined by the motivation.

Which is the problem - there are actions which are only okay with the right motivations. For example, is it okay for your MC to kill the bad guy in battle when it's kill or be killed? Is it okay for that same MC to kill that same bad guy in his sleep? (this is an arguable one; I prefer to leave my bad guys to be killed by non-MCs...but I don't like killing off characters in general anyway!)

Okay, that was a long rambly post, and it looks like I shan't make it back to the character intro thread if I don't get out of this thread soon.
Hope it did make sense and it did not offend anyone! (I don't mean to start theological arguments...)

Well, just on this point, it would be almost murder to kill someone while they were asleep. Remember that David could have killed Saul multiple times while he slept, but refrained from it.

Gambling, though, will affect other people besides yourself, hangliding will really only hurt you. Also, I think gambling can become an addiction. Nothing is wrong with hangliding for the thrill, that is enjoying God's creation.

And for the storming the castle, ect. thing; there is a fine line between recklessness and bravery.

I can't resist. I have to point something out about Gambling. It is really a form of stealing. If you lose your money, you have stolen from what your family could be using. You have stolen from God because he gave that to you to further His kingdom. If you win, you are taking something for nothing. It wasn't offered as a gift, and you didn't earn it. Thus you are stealing from another person.

My $.02

I am not violent, I don't drink and I don't gamble, but Violence is what makes fantasy writing what it is. And as for drinking, I don't think it is wrong to put it into books. I don't really think gambling is normally in fantasy, but I don't see why it would be bad in a book.
Hi

In my story, I have some violence because my MCs are slaves, and are really badly treated. I am trying to strike a balance between trying to show how terrible it is, and not being really gruesome. I also agree that cursing is never really necessary.

My take on violence:

Like Arias Myles has said on the first page, violence is unavoidable. Period. There is always some sort of conflict going on even nowadays. Even on local news you hear about people getting murdered in the city I live in.

When writing, like others have said, you shouldn't have your good guys glorifying violence/killing, but there are times when it's necessary to kill. Usually for protecting something either physical or not. More commonly it's the antagonists who are all out for pain, death, and misery. (Depending on your story.)

There's also a more milder kind of violence such as brawls, street fights, ect. Those can be used for several different reasons, but I'm not going to get into that right now since I don't have much experience with writing in brawls and the like. :P

I couldn't have said it better myself.