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Defensive Suicide
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7345		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 23rd, 2012, 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Defensive Suicide
An odd concept, to be sure, but it's an interesting discussion. While suicide is essentially murder, in our fantasy stories, is it okay to have a character directly kill themselves for the sake of keeping secrets or saving lives?

Discuss. I'll be back with my thoughts after I see what else has come up.
Author:  Aratrea [ December 24th, 2012, 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Out of curiosity, when could a suicide save lives when it doesn't have to deal with keeping secrets?

And I would argue that it's still wrong, even in the extreme situation.
Author:  Loki [ December 24th, 2012, 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Why is suicide bad?

(not saying it's good don't get me wrong)
Author:  Ophelia MirZA Mimetes [ December 24th, 2012, 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Loki Loki Loki wrote:
Why is suicide bad?

(not saying it's good don't get me wrong)


(I know this isn't the topic at hand, but I'm going to answer, though I may not answer as well as some could.)

Suicide is wrong because our lives have value, and it isn't for us to decide when it ends - it's God's choice. It is murder- murder of oneself. I believe there is never darkness so deep that Christ can not penetrate it, but when a person is in that state of mind they don't see that. Suicide "fixes" the problem for the person (on this earth) since they no longer have to deal with whatever it is that caused them to go to that extreme, but it harms the lives of all the people around them. I know families who have had to deal with this; it is devastating.

Lady Kitra Mimetes wrote:
An odd concept, to be sure, but it's an interesting discussion. While suicide is essentially murder, in our fantasy stories, is it okay to have a character directly kill themselves for the sake of keeping secrets or saving lives?


"Is it okay to have a character. . ." *Thinks* I think it wouldn't be wrong to write, however, I think the choice of the character is wrong. In normal situations suicide is wrong, so even in an extreme case I think it is as well. Making a scenario with a moral dilemma of saving lives, I don't think changes the principal – God is in control and suicide isn't the answer.

*Writes the words, “I think” a lot* :P

~ZA
Author:  Loki [ December 24th, 2012, 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Okay, you said suicide is murder of oneself. But is all killing immoral? You can look to the Bible for God-sanctioned slaughter of thousands of people in the wars the Israelites fought. So is there a point, "defensive suicide" if you will, where suicide is not "murder of oneself", but a justifiable action?

I guess "suicide" probably wouldn't be the word for that, what you should use is "sacrifice". The Bible talks about "laying down one's life" for another. And Jesus would be the perfect example of that.

Make any sense? Again, not advocating suicide. But Lady Kitra told us to discuss...
Author:  RunningWolf [ December 24th, 2012, 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Jesus did not kill himself. He allowed himself to be killed unjustly. Another thing to consider is that He is God--He can choose on His own when and why and how He should die.

Loki Loki Loki wrote:
So is there a point, "defensive suicide" if you will, where suicide is not "murder of oneself", but a justifiable action?


I don't really believe so. Taking one's own life is taking things into their own hands rather than trusting God to get them through something safely. And who is to say it is God's will for you to sacrifice yourself in any way you choose? You do not belong to yourself, but to Him.
Your life is not yours to give away to anyone.

Loki Loki Loki wrote:
Make any sense? Again, not advocating suicide. But Lady Kitra told us to discuss...


And an interesting discussion it is. :D
Author:  Aratrea [ December 24th, 2012, 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Oh. *notes that the original question was whether or not it is right to have a character commit suicide, not if suicide could ever be right. :P

In that case, I think it's fine, given that characters can and should sometimes mess up and commit questionable actions.
Author:  Captain Nemo Marlene [ December 24th, 2012, 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Kitra, are you asking whether it's OK to write about these situations, or is it OK for the characters to be doing these actions in the first place?

Writing about it, my first reaction right now is, yes. It's okay to write about it. People write about murder and things such as that. So why would we exclude suicide?

Now, whether or not it's OK for the characters to perform these actions is another question.

For this, I want to propose a highly unlikely and very extreme example. I know it probably has holes in it, but just go along with it.

What if there was a villain holding one person to gun point who was a very dear friend. The man said that if you killed yourself, he would spare your friend. (I know it's unlikely that he would actually spare your friend, but just go with it.) However, if you did not, he would kill your friend. If you could truly save your friend by taking your own life, would this be laying your life down for a friend? Or would this be self-murder?

I'm not saying what's right or wrong here. Just giving us all something to think about.

But if this is derailing the thread, ignore all of that. :)
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 24th, 2012, 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
More so I am wondering if you all were to read of a character that did so, would you think them noble, or would you question their decision?

For my part, Equal, I'd be hesitate to do so in that scenario, because it means the villain stands to gain something by my own suicide than by killing me himself.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ December 25th, 2012, 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
God gave our lives to us. They are our most sacred possession. In a sense, they are our only true possession. From our life, all of our rights and possessions are derived.

But just as with taking the life of another, the question is not, "is it right to take life?" but rather "when is it right to take life."

A man who throws himself onto a grenade to save someone else has killed himself just as much as a man who puts a gun to his own head. Both will be held responsible. But while one man has sacrificed his life for others, the other man has sacrificed his life to an idol of some sin.

And finally, Jesus did kill himself. If you accept that Jesus willingly became sin, you accept that Jesus chose to die. He chose the time, place, his executioners, his manner of death. He killed himself, just as much as a person who commits assisted suicide, regardless of the fact that they are not technically the ones who do the killing, has killed themselves.

All suicide is really sacrifice, either to God, or to an idol. No one really possesses their life anyway, we have all either given our life to God, or again, to an idol.

In other questions of morality, we do not say, my will and intellect belong to God, so let him force me to do something right, it's not my place to use things I've given to God.

And yet, we only condone martyrdom if the circumstances make the martyr.

The sin is why you take your life, not that you take your life.

So, is it OK for a character to take their own life? Well, that's up to you.

As for portraying it, I would advise caution. Portraying suicide, especially violent suicides, is not something to be done lightly. You have to consider your target audience and the potential impact on your readers. Beyond that, it's really not my place to tell you whether you can or can't write about it.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ December 26th, 2012, 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Um, there is actually a thread very similar to this one. Perhaps we should merge the two and have this be a part of the suicide thread?
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ February 16th, 2013, 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Mmm. I think this is a spin-off thread from that one. It specifically refers to suicide in self-defense. Death before dishonour and all that.
Author:  Lady Elanor [ October 26th, 2013, 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
Lady Kitra Skene wrote:
More so I am wondering if you all were to read of a character that did so, would you think them noble, or would you question their decision?


Actually I would think they were noble. It's not like they asked to be in that situation, but being in that situation they are willing to give their lives for a friend. I believe the bible says 'there is no greater love'. I think it takes a very courageous person to willingly lay down their life for someone else.
Author:  Lady Abigail Mimetes [ October 28th, 2013, 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Suicide
I think it would be kind of like the Sicarii Jews in Masada...you know, how they committed a mass suicide to prevent themselves from being captured and enslaved by the Romans....I think they were noble to do so, so in certain situations, yes, I believe I would think it is noble, not to mention, an epic plot twist, and I would cry reading it. ;)
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