Login | Register







Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 29 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 6th, 2010, 6:39 am 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
What makes something a genre convention rather than just plain old cliche?

Some modern genre conventions/cliches of fantasy:
dragons-as-pets/steeds
mindreading/mindspeaking
lost prince discovers he is supposed to be king
wizards
and all those times people blatantly borrow scenes/setups from LotR. :P

I have seen things well-done in either direction.

I was just thinking about this after reading DragonSpell, which tends to pull on the cliches to make them work again...but it really felt like some of the aspects (particularly the wizard Fenworth) really just existed for the sole purpose of genre convention.

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 6th, 2010, 2:00 pm 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: November 16th, 2009, 9:13 pm
Posts: 2045
Location: Eniret
I'm not sure whether to be ashamed that my story falls into two of those categories (dragons and 'mindspeaking') or not. Define genre convention, please.

_________________
2 Corinthians 3:17 ~ Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

eleutheria - Greek for liberty

My blog:
http://exhortationsbyelizabeth.blogspot.com
A fan of my book?
http://facebook.com/wingstrilogy/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 6th, 2010, 2:42 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
As far as I've learned, genre conventions are things that make a story be part of a genre.

For example, a genre convention of sci-fi is 'aliens'. Not all sci-fi stories have aliens, but all alien stories are sci-fi.

Also, the cliche-ness has to do with how well it's written, not the content itself.

So genre conventions are a good thing. ;)

The thing that I'm always worrying about is 'cliche'. Which is not a good thing unless I'm going for funny. Which I'm usually not. [I'm not a funny person. ;) (except in the dry, sarcastic, wishing-I-was-witty kind of way... ;))]

I'm just thinking about fantasy, because in the past 10 years it's been a written...and even more written... and over-written... genre.

This also happened back in the late 70's - early 90's (as far as I can tell, I wasn't born yet. :D I just happen to run across a lot of old books) and most of the fantasy written then has since gone out of print, never to be remembered. (ditto on sci-fi, which saw a rise in interest in the 80's & 90's - post-Star Wars and in the age of Star Trek - but now you don't see very much anymore...)

The enduring fantasy pieces are the really good ones, the ones which make all others cliche instead of cool.

DISCLAIMER: my best friend tells me I need to lay off the worry about cliche. So I may be over-analyzing this in my desperate effort to escape the cliche. ;)

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 6th, 2010, 8:04 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: October 24th, 2009, 3:23 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
Cliche is not always a bad thing, but usually it is. Genre conventions such as the ones you've listed (except the prince one, that's just a cliche) are general enough that if you have even a tiny bit of originality in your execution then you will most likely be fine. You just have to take the conventions and do them your way, not the same way as someone (or everyone) else. A good example of this is the Sword of Shannara Trilogy. The first book is pretty much completely cliche, but the second and third books take the genre conventions in a semi-unique direction, thus avoiding cliche-ness.

_________________
“It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 6th, 2010, 9:02 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
I can name a book that did the prince thing successfully - the Horse and His Boy. ;)

I should separate cliche from blatant copying such as 'orcs/goblins as bad guys', 'undead characters terrorizing people', etc....

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 7th, 2010, 11:49 am 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: October 24th, 2009, 3:23 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
I was mostly joking about the prince thing but I forgot to put a smilie to indicate that :P What do you mean "separate cliche from blatant copying"?

_________________
“It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 7th, 2010, 5:41 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
Welllllllllll, sometimes certain passages in books draw very strongly from certain classic fantasy and science fiction works.

For example, in LB Graham's Beyond the Summerland, a group of characters is kidnapped by the bad guys...in a very The Two Towers-like way. If you've read it, it's fairly obvious how it's a blatant reference to TTT.

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 7th, 2010, 8:17 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: October 24th, 2009, 3:23 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
So, that would fall under copying, not genre convention or cliche... gotcha, good point.

_________________
“It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:05 pm 
Captain
Captain
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2011, 10:06 am
Posts: 3652
Location: Colorado, currently
Discord Username: Varon
Gobins and orcs is a convention, it's easier to avoid being called a warmonger that way. ;)

They aren't exactly cliche because they were borrowed from legends and mythology.

_________________
I have not come to raise hell, but to bring your false Eden crashing down around your ears- Undecided project


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:14 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
Varon wrote:
Gobins and orcs is a convention, it's easier to avoid being called a warmonger that way. ;)

They aren't exactly cliche because they were borrowed from legends and mythology.


I've seen it both ways.

Goblins are usually considered okay to borrow - orcs are not. Orcs are a specific type of goblin-like creature, with their own history. Some books borrow that history almost word for word. (Orcs are commonly held to be a twisted form of elves)

I personally need to do some research on the origins of goblins and orcs in fantasy works. Just haven't had time/reason. I'm a little tired of every fantasy story having their own orc-like evil creatures anyhow. ;)

As a side note, off-topic, I haz no problem with humans fighting humans in stories. It's reality. Fantasy is not a way to escape reality - it's a way to dive deeper into it.

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:20 pm 
Captain
Captain
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2011, 10:06 am
Posts: 3652
Location: Colorado, currently
Discord Username: Varon
Orc is a specific type of goblin from European legends and mythology, it literally means slayer.

_________________
I have not come to raise hell, but to bring your false Eden crashing down around your ears- Undecided project


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:40 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
Varon wrote:
Orc is a specific type of goblin from European legends and mythology, it literally means slayer.


Not according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc

Quote:
The modern use of the English word "orc" to denote a race of evil, humanoid creatures begins with J. R. R. Tolkien.


Quote:
Old English influence

Tolkien's own statements about the real-world origins of his use of the word "orc" are as follows:

* "the word is, as far as I am concerned, actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability"[4]
* "I originally took the word from Old English orc (Beowulf 112 orc-neas and the gloss orc = þyrs ('ogre'), heldeofol ('hell-devil')). This is supposed not to be connected with modern English orc, ork, a name applied to various sea-beasts of the dolphin order."[5]
* "The word used in translation of Q urko, S orch is Orc. But that is because of the similarity of the ancient English word orc, 'evil spirit or bogey', to the Elvish words. There is possibly no connection between them. The English word is now generally supposed to be derived from Latin Orcus."[6]
* "Orc I derived from Anglo-Saxon, a word meaning demon, usually supposed to be derived from the Latin Orcus – Hell. But I doubt this, though the matter is too involved to set out here".[7]


And also it mentions the Gaelic & Norse forms of 'orc' which have to do with seals, not goblins.

I was curious and looked it up. :)

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:51 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 18th, 2010, 10:37 pm
Posts: 5545
Location: Kentucky
You worry too much about cliches. :D

_________________
Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 12:57 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
Janin of Yen wrote:
You worry too much about cliches. :D

You had better not have got that from RP. ;)

But yeah, sometimes I do. My little obsession... oh, that and story theory. :roll: Always cramming something into my head - always theorizing about why things work the way they do. Unfortunately, not always writing. :P Need to work on translating the information in my head to stories. ;)

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 2:12 pm 
Captain
Captain
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2011, 10:06 am
Posts: 3652
Location: Colorado, currently
Discord Username: Varon
It appears that my source was incorrect.

_________________
I have not come to raise hell, but to bring your false Eden crashing down around your ears- Undecided project


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 10:39 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: May 14th, 2010, 4:43 am
Posts: 4458
I thought that Tolkien took the word orc from the Elvish yrch? :)

eruheran

_________________
I am a dreamer of big dreams: a student of wisdom, a reader of books, and a crafter of words. I am a servant of my Master who has rescued me. I am an adventurer, living my life to the fullest. Will you join me on this wild journey?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 11:07 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 18th, 2010, 10:37 pm
Posts: 5545
Location: Kentucky
They were goblins in the Hobbit (which I read first). Then they changed to Orcs in the Lord of the Rings and I thought it was the stupidest thing...

_________________
Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 17th, 2010, 11:33 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: May 14th, 2010, 4:43 am
Posts: 4458
I never really liked Orcs, but I've tried to stay away from them and elves mainly because they 'reek' of Tolkien...if you know what I mean. :D

Also, in Ranger's Apprentice, whatever the bad creatures are called, they are SUCH a rip-off of Orcs! Argh! I liked the plot of Ranger's Apprentice but so much other stuff was taken from LoTR! :roll:

eruheran

_________________
I am a dreamer of big dreams: a student of wisdom, a reader of books, and a crafter of words. I am a servant of my Master who has rescued me. I am an adventurer, living my life to the fullest. Will you join me on this wild journey?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 18th, 2010, 1:36 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 18th, 2010, 10:37 pm
Posts: 5545
Location: Kentucky
The Kalkan? (or whatever, something like that...) But there were only three of them, and I didn't notice any similar traits unless being evil counts as one...

(If Melody is obsessed with cliches, you're obsessed with LotR rip-offs... :D )

_________________
Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 18th, 2010, 5:18 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: May 14th, 2010, 4:43 am
Posts: 4458
No, it started with an M. The kalkans were different, but there was something that the exiled bad guy controlled with his mind or something. :)

(Yes, I am) :D

eruheran

_________________
I am a dreamer of big dreams: a student of wisdom, a reader of books, and a crafter of words. I am a servant of my Master who has rescued me. I am an adventurer, living my life to the fullest. Will you join me on this wild journey?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 18th, 2010, 11:01 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 30th, 2010, 1:23 am
Posts: 4684
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Are you thinking of Wargals? They are actually passively mentioned in Fellowship. :roll:

_________________
_________________________
THINGS AREN'T ALWAYS AS THEY APPEAR.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 12:28 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 18th, 2010, 10:37 pm
Posts: 5545
Location: Kentucky
Wargals. That's it. They're actually mentioned? Then it's not a rip off of orcs, he's simply building upon an idea Tolkien never did anything with. I do that all the time. There's one tiny detail an author briefly glances over that my mind will fasten hold of and begin to spin a tale...

That is the one really odd thing about Ranger's Apprentice. The mindwork. In a series otherwise devoid of anything magical or remotely fantastical, we have a villain who has mind control??? That's... intense. But it's never developed, only briefly mentioned! Weird....

_________________
Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 1:23 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 30th, 2010, 1:23 am
Posts: 4684
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
I THINK I read that somewhere, but I'm not certain. It's either at the part right before they enter Moria and the wolves attack, or it's right after they leave Moria when they are being chased by the Orcs. I'm not certain, so don't quote me on that. :)

_________________
_________________________
THINGS AREN'T ALWAYS AS THEY APPEAR.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 6:47 am 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: March 27th, 2010, 2:47 pm
Posts: 921
You're probably thinking the word 'warg' which is some kind of huge wolf-thing. Tolkien didn't do very much with them in the specifics - they seemed like a sort of animal rather than an evil being like an orc or a balrog.

In-universe, 'orc' comes from 'yrch' & other forms of the word, but out-of-universe, the word had real linguistic roots. :)

_________________
“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
~Robert Schumann

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
(A star shines on the hour of our meeting)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 7:20 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 18th, 2010, 10:37 pm
Posts: 5545
Location: Kentucky
An expert to the rescue!!!

Now that you mention it, warg sound familiar. :)

_________________
Floyd was frozen where he stood. He struggled to breathe, but the air smelled of blood and death and guilt. He tried to formulate a name, to ask, but language was meaningless, and words would not come. He tried to scream but the sound got stuck in his heart, shattered into a million pieces, and scattered to the wind.

In a world without superheroes, who will stand against the forces of evil?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 10:28 pm 
Foundational Member
Foundational Member
User avatar

Joined: October 24th, 2009, 3:23 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
In Tolkien's books, wargs are very large wolves with a particularly vicious temperament. They don't appear much if at all in the LotR, but they appear in the Hobbit as mounts for the Goblins that trap Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves in a grove of pine trees. In the film versions of the LotR, there are wargs that look more like hyenas, also as mounts for goblins/orcs. They are just a beast, but a vicious one.

_________________
“It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 19th, 2010, 11:08 pm 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: May 14th, 2010, 4:43 am
Posts: 4458
The Wargs were wolf-like creatures in the Hobbit. Gandalf threw fireworks pine-cones down on them. They were also in the Battle of the Five Armies. Anyways, Wargals are pretty much clones of Orcs...no originality at all. :)

eruheran

_________________
I am a dreamer of big dreams: a student of wisdom, a reader of books, and a crafter of words. I am a servant of my Master who has rescued me. I am an adventurer, living my life to the fullest. Will you join me on this wild journey?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 20th, 2010, 3:17 am 
Grease Monkeys
Grease Monkeys
User avatar

Joined: June 30th, 2010, 1:23 am
Posts: 4684
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Ah, yes. Wargs. That's it. Well, they are very similar. I think that Wargals were based off of Wargs.

_________________
_________________________
THINGS AREN'T ALWAYS AS THEY APPEAR.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Genre Conventions versus the Cliche
PostPosted: July 20th, 2010, 4:44 pm 
Captain
Captain
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2011, 10:06 am
Posts: 3652
Location: Colorado, currently
Discord Username: Varon
Wargals were more wolfish, they reminded my of the vyes in "The Tapestry" series, but not shape-shifting.

_________________
I have not come to raise hell, but to bring your false Eden crashing down around your ears- Undecided project


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 29 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron