I am currently working on some bodies of literature from my world of Ska'Lah'Seh and was wondering how it would be taken if I had a Demon redeemed and return to being an angel? I was thinking about taking from the story of Prometheus.

Here is how the tale goes. It is the Story of Fir'Mon a lesser spirit of Fire. During Lum'Mon's (Lucifer) rebellion Fir'Mon had followed Lum'On, but after realizing that he and the other followers of Lum'On had been cut off from Yah (God) he immediately realized the wrongness of his actions. Lum'Mon was at that time the spirit of the Sun and due to his hatred of Man would often leave the earth in darkness for days. However Fir'Mon saw the suffering of mankind and wept. So Fir'Mon taught man how to make fire. Lum'Mon was so enraged by Fir'Mon's defiance he cast Fir'Mon into a volcano where he was sealed under the magma in constant agony feeling the heat but not actually burning as he was a spirit of Fire. When An'Ard (Christ) defeated Lum'Mon now Mam'Mon (satan) He went to the volcano where Fir'Mon had been sealed and released him but when he ascended from the magma he was no longer Fir'Mon but rather Sol'Mon the spirit of of a new sun.

What do you guys think?

I think it works well for a fantasy world. It is only if you compare that to the real world will we run into theological problems.

I agree, I think it sounds like a good story for a fantasy world.

What they said. ^

Cool idea. I agree with what everyone else said on this topic.

Ok thanks I was just wondering if others might find it offensive. I also thought it would be an interesting concept where he makes a huge sacrifice for others he had wronged in the past and undergoes a literal baptism through fire.

I made a small edit on the main post I did not feel right about Fir'Mon stealing even if it was from the devil. I also felt it didn't fit Sol'Mon's kind of uptight character.

how close to our world is your fantasy world? And are you planning for other demons to be redeemed?

And also...how close to Christ is your Christ-figure? Because if later on in your world, he comes to earth and dies to redeem others, then I would say that Sol'Mon being redeemed would be a theological problem. Since, you'd then have the dichotomy of redemption by grace/redemption by works.

Just a thought...

I think you misinterpreted the message. Sol'Mon was not redeemed by good works, his good works were merely after effect of his desire to change and right past wrongs. In short he experienced redemption through grace. What separated him from the other Dea'Mon was his repentant heart. A aspect of character necessary in being able to accept grace.

I am just getting curious do you really think guys that it would be a problem to portray the redemption of a true Fallen angel (in the christian tradition) ? Do you believe only humans are able to repent and to be saved, and not spirits ? This question has two sides :

1) Are spirits able to repent ?
2) Will God forgive them if they do ?

I am aware we are getting into serious matters, but God is so good and loving that I couldn't imagine him refusing his forgiveness to a Fallen angel who would sincerely repent. On the other hand, I don't know -the Fallen angels' offense toward God is so outrageous - if there would be enough good left in them after what they have done and how much they were perverted from their goodness of old...

I've kind of always thought of it as, no angel would repent if he actually was rebellious enough to turn away from what angels know of God's glory....

I really don't know, though, the Bible says so little about angels. I kind of feel like I'm groping in the dark whenever I try and answer a question about them.

Good point. That was so big. I guess that the better something is at the beginning, the worse he becomes if he goes wrong... that's the only explanation. The Fallen angels may have gone so wrong they are not even able to repent.



So true, this subject is quite risky -your are sure to be wrong, besides it makes me a little uncomfortable to draw upon things God voluntarily kept secret, for fear of letting my imagination go too far-

This mystery that surrounds angels has lead to many fantasies about them since the beginning of the world to our modern literature, and most of the time in a very gross way...that's what I want precisely to avoid

Yes, it seems like that.... When you think about how much they knew, how much they saw – and then they turned away. It's so hard to even imagine them doing that.

Eh, yesss. I know exactly what you mean.

Actually, there was one book regarding the angel-demon realm that I didn't think was done badly at all – of course there was a lot of speculation in it, but there has to be in a book about that, and I liked what she did with it, unlike most of the stories I've seen about angels and such. It was by Tosca Lee – 'Demon: A Memoir'.

It did touch on the concept of a demon repenting, too, if I remember right, and whether it existed and why. It was fascinating.

Wow thank you so much for the reference ! it looks fascinating indeed, I shall read it as soon as possible

Wow, this is old and doesn't even relate to my world anymore... I moved to make spirits more alien and mysterious much like real angels and demons.

However, I guess it doesn't necessarily invalidate the conversation, though I do personally lean against the whole idea nowadays, as demons are a corruption of nature and a profaning of God's will. Or at least that's how I view them now.

This is definitely the best way to write about them, I believe : I remember a quotation by the poet Mallarmé saying : “Everything that is sacred and that wishes to remain so must envelop itself in mystery.” I find it quite appropriate don't you think ?

And here is my writing rule (by the same author) : “To define is to kill. To suggest is to create.”

Yeah before they almost seemed like clearly defined deities with a vary specific mythology. At the time I thought that would be cool, then overtime I realized that, that just wasn't important and what realy mattered was the whole Idea of Spirits. Personifications of Nature and Gods will. That acted as agents of nature and God's will, without invading or intruding upon the world in a way that made them something "almost human". Spirits aren't like humans they are spirits. They don't think or act as we do. An good man and a good spirit are good for different reasons, and even more so an evil man and an evil spirit are evil for far more different reasons.

The way I see it an evil man is a man who has gone astray, while a Demon is an Angel that refuses to be an Angel. Humans can be redeemed by returning to the right path. Demons however chooses evil, and while some men do so freely as well (One could hardly call such a man a man any longer). They exist in an attempt to defy Gods will, to personify all that is unnatural. How then could they find redemption? Surely they no longer seek such things? For they have chosen this path knowingly, not faltered and wondered down it's passageways out of ignorance. They are the dark path that leads men astray!. They have become Ignorance and Damnation, how then can they find Enlightenment and Redemption.

Sorry rambling.

Hm. In the beginning, God said 'Let there be light.' But he didn't bother to define it for us.

Very interesting. * half grin *

I like that rule. I had never heard of Mallarmé before, but I think I shall see if there are any translations of his work around... you interest me in him.

But what about the fact that humans are said to have spirits themselves? How does that relate to what you're saying?

A spirit is like an angel or Demon what we often call a spirit is just the soul, or maybe the amount of vitality we have. Unless you mean the holy spirit which i think falls nicely under the correct definition if a bit more powerful then a mere angel. Or you could be referring to spirit, how some people like to see it as a substance that the soul is made from.

However, what I was referring to as a spirit is basically a entity made up of only its soul without need for a physical body. Though Ghosts (as in people who no longer have bodies) would fall under this category too. If thats what you mean. In which case I suppose something could be said about that. Essential a Ghost is just a soul with-ought a body and arguably with-ought a mind. But a Ghost was once mortal making it unlike other spirits. It is arguably something else entirely. Look at me... Ranting about things far above my pay grade as if I actually understand what I'm talking about.

Yes, exactly. That's what I was talking about. If a devil (or angel) is just a soul without need for a body, and a human is a soul with a need for one, what do you think makes up such a difference that you were talking about earlier between humans and angelic persons when it comes to good and evil?

I'm not certain that ghosts exist – at least as they are said to exist, as being the souls of dead people still hanging around without a body. So I really don't have any idea how they fit in.

Yeah, I know what you mean.... It's kind of interesting, though, to talk about.

Human will is free will, spirits like i was referring to are born with a predefined purpose. Like a natural law, they must follow that purpose or fall into utter corruption.

If you don't believe in free will than my argument is mute.

I do believe in it. So we're together on at least one point. * half grin *

But don't the angels have a free will too, since they are capable of turning away? And humans are also made for one purpose – to love God, as Jesus said – and when they reject it they also are corrupted. Eventually utterly corrupted. That is the result of their free will, the ability to give themselves up to corruption.

Hm I would say the angels' free will could be even more greater than humans', because sin has become a part of our nature since the day Adam and Eve transgressed, whereas sin seems to be exterior to angelic nature (they can live without committing any sin, which is impossible for us)...therefore their sinful actions must be even more terrible than ours But all of that is pure guessing and I believe we are getting into deep water here...I won't go further ^^

* nods * I see what you mean. The angels were more sheer good, and therefore were more sheer bad when they were bad, perhaps.

Maybe the very reason that they are capable of not sinning is the same reason that they are so depraved when they do change into sinning. Whatever that reason is.... That they are stronger than us, or that they are in the presence of God, or something else entirely....

Sometimes I wonder about heaven – not even the humans will sin when they go there. But how does that happen exactly? And does that maybe have anything to do with angels and demons?

Yeah, I know... we don't really have all that much to go on and all, so none of our speculation is at all solid. It's interesting, though.

And thinking about the way morality fits into different 'types' of life forms is a good idea for fantasy authors anyway, in my opinion, whether our ideas end up being applicable to angels and demons at all or not. I mean, fantasy authors (and sci fi authors as well) make up types of life forms all the time, sometimes dramatically different from humans. But how do they even work? How does anything but humans work? You know?

Well actually I almost always Wonder about Heaven xD It seems so unreal, and impossible to imagine for our little human minds we only have to believe what God tells us about it...

I think the fact there will be no more sin in Heaven is due firstly to us not having physical bodies anymore (or new and incorruptible bodies ?) because something in the animal nature of man has been disturbed since the original sin, and thus may lead to sin (even though most of the sin comes from the mind...) but I believe that first and foremost our minds shall become clearer -and everything such as temptation, trickery etc. will seem to us laughable and gross compared to the immediate and beaming and loving presence of God, so much more preferable, overwhelming and finally unveiled.

Furthermore, God promised to make us Children of God if we take this free choice, and how could we be children of God and sin ? It just doesn't make sense. Because if we are children of God, we are from God, that is to say we shall share somehow his nature, be in him and him in us, and forever reunited - and nothing in God's nature has anything to do with sin (the sin being the contrary of God's nature). So we can't be from God and sinning...

Yes I see what you mean when you Wonder whether man can conceive any living form which is not human...the risk of anthropomorphism and humanization is always present, because we are so stuck in our human point of view, drowned in subjectivity and our nature...the Bible itself is the Word of God destined to humans -God meant it for us, but it doesn't mean that Man's standard is unique in the whole universe...Yet the Bible tells us that angels have a will, emotions (they can rejoice of be saddened), and intelligence...just like humans, and just like God.

After all, God said He created humans at His resemblance, so there is a divine part in us (for exemple, the moral Law) and this part of God in us connects us with eternity and the whole universe (because God's mark, His "style" is in every created thing) so when one ask whether there could be anything living, self reflective and reasoning, and willing, and emotional, and yet not "human" -this side of Man being also God's, the question would rather be : "how could anything but God work", don't you think ? The natural answer would be "no" !

I am not sure if I made myself clear, that is a very difficult issue (and so sorry for my English....><)