Hey everyone! I've looked around on this theology sub-forum and couldn't find any thread on this, so I decided to make one.

On the forum, we see the phrase good Christian fantasy a LOT!

My question for you guys to think about is this: what defines good Christian fantasy? How do we write good Christian fantasy?

Now, let's forget about EVERYTHING you think is the answer, and take a look at this observation:

I've seen people talk about their fantasy writing style and talking a lot about C.S. Lewis. So let's say that C.S. Lewis' writing (mainly Narnia) is the basis of good Christian fantasy.

Did you know that Lewis' intention when he wrote Narnia was not necessarily to write Christian fantasy? His inspiration came from an image in his head at the age of 16: A faun carrying a parcel. He then decided to create a story from that. He did not necessarily set out to write "Christian" fantasy, but more a good story. However, because of his Christian world view, his Christian beliefs showed up in his story. They just kind of went in there, from my understanding. His being a Christian was such a part of him that it appeared in a children's book he wrote.

So, my question is, how should we go about writing fantasy in general?

Personally, I think that God has gifted us with creating through writing. We can use this gift to either glorify God, or to go against God. But, does glorifying God mean you have to intentionally put a Christ or God figure in your fantasy, or writing allegorically? I would say no. To me, glorifying God through your writing would mean committing it to Him and striving to do your best in your work. God gave you a gift, and you honor Him by writing to the best of your ability.

Does this mean we forget about putting any allegory or Christian aspects into our writing? Of course not! Our Christian world view should shine through our writing, just as C.S. Lewis' did. It should be such a part of us that it has no choice but to show up in what we set out to do.

There is nothing wrong with allegorical stories. In fact, I greatly appreciate them! There is a place for every type of writing. There is a place for writing allegorically and for intentionally putting a Christ figure in your writing. But I think a key to writing good Christian fantasy is to write to your best potential and always trying to honor God and committing your work to him by striving to honor him.

This is my personal observation on this subject. What do you guys think about this? How do you view this topic? How do you think we should go about writing Christian Fantasy?

There are a lot of good thoughts there, Nemo. Thank you for sharing.

As someone whose writing was definitely not God-sanctioned for a long time, I agree with this wholeheartedly. The reason I stopped for four years, and am starting up again now, is that I want to use my gift to glorify Him!


I concur. Though for my first novel (which will hopefully turn into a series) I plan to take the the first path, which I consider easier for a Christian writer since you don't have to worry about whether you are being too ambiguous. Later works will likely branch out more into allegory.


I also think the main key is prayer. Yes putting your best effort into it is what you should do, but looking to Him for inspiration is definitely necessary. If you are writing for Him, you will want to let him work through you get to the message out that He wants. Just my meager thoughts on the subject.

I agree. God may have someone write through allegories because that is where they are better suited to get across a message, while for others they may just write a good story to get their message out. It all depends. And those thoughts aren't meager. They were good.

Ummm ... I wouldn't agree that Lewis's fantasy is the model of good Christian fantasy. A model, certainly, but if we make Lewis our standard any number of others wouldn't measure up. Even the Inklings as a group wouldn't do for a single standard. (Though I'd aquiesce easily enough, at least for the sake of discussion, to the non-fiction writings of the Inklings about writing and fantasy as our standard.)



Indeed; this is a good example of a point he made about Christians in politics and society: what we need is not a Christian political party, or (to apply it here), "Christian fantasy" as a genre, but lots and lots of Christians who have been called to politial action, or writing fantasy, working out their faith in that vocation.

Another major point is that he started to write and didn't get anywhere until Aslan came in and dragged the whole rest of the series after him. If the stories hadn't been distinctly Christian, they wouldn't have been written.



Agreed ... particularly since the two are nearly mutually exclusive!



Yes! Indeed! But that's not enough; a story can in its construction and execution glorify God but in its content attack him. (Lewis had a phrase he used to describe something once: "beautiful but depraved".) Our fiction needs to cultivate truth in our readers---as the fact that it can do so has been the only justification for its existence since the question came up several centuries ago. (See Sir Philip Sidney's "An Apology for Poetry", published 1595.)



Or Tolkien's, or MacDonald's, or ...

And this is hardly unique to fiction; it's a command for our entire lives.



I'd like to see someone do a true allegory sometime; there's a reason it was the dominant form of narrative for a while. (As Lewis explains in one of the early chapters of The Allegory of Love.) Allegory can be incredibly powerful vehicle for certain kinds of stories, and similarly stories with rather direct symbolism (as the Archives of Anthropos) or with God as a character (as the Narnia series) can be quite compelling if done well.



(Somehow this topic keeps coming up in this forum, over and over and over ...) First of all, as you said, we have to produce as good a product as we can; just as a slovenly ambassador does not reflect well on the one who sends him, an error-filled or even merely mediocre nominally-Christian novel doesn't bring much glory to God. But second, we have to be sure that it conveys and cultivates truth, as we are writing in the service of the one who is "the Truth". So to make sure of that, we need to be immersed---steeped---in truth, and pray constantly for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who alone leads to and teaches the truth. And third, our motivation needs to be right: God's glory, not our own. And we need to keep this in view whether we succeed (bringing the danger of becoming attached to the praise) or fail (bringing the danger of despair).

(Sorry about the tangents about alleory; the modern misunderstanding of it is a pet peeve of mine---and I have an essay explaining what it actually entails that I've submitted to, I hope, run on the HW blog sometime early this year.)

Wonderful post, kingjon.

Aye. I'm not saying he's the only one, but for the sake of the discussion I wanted just one example to go off of.



Good point. From what I heard, though, (and this could be totally wrong) Lewis had just been recently dreaming about lions and decided to put one in his story. After he added Aslan, it took off. So I'm not sure if it was exactly even "distinctly Christian" there, but more his beliefs influencing his writing.



Right. I think I was trying to say that. Thanks for putting that into words. I believe I was more implying that with our focus on God in the process, it should only be natural to continue that into the actual writing.



*nod nod* Again, I focused on Lewis for one example. There are many, many others we could use.



Along these lines, would you consider Hind's Feet on High Places a true allegory? Perhaps I just didn't like the style, but it seemed way too obvious, even for an allegory... I don't think I've read very many allegorical works, so I could be utterly wrong there. I'm just curious as to that book.



Good thoughts! I enjoyed your post. This is becoming a good discussion.



All good. Actually, it'd be neat to start an allegory thread sometime (unless we already have one?). I look forward to reading that post, too! Let me know when it's out.

Mmmm. Still, there are a few problems with picking Lewis (and his fantasy specifically; I'd have fewer objections if you'd picked the Space Trilogy): first, that there are (I believe) some who claim seriously that works along the lines of the Narnia books (though preferably less subtle, apparently) are the only fantasy books that should be written or read. Second, that attempting to imitate Lewis tends to lead writers into traps, like thoughtlessly tossing in any and all elements that leap to mind, or creating a symbolic representation of Biblical stories so transparent and simplistic it's almost a roman à clef.



I remember the "dreaming of lions" bit too, but the way I remember him putting it (wherever I read it) was that "Aslan dragged the whole story after him" (emphasis mine). What I gather from his descriptions is that what got him past his block and propelled the whole series thereafter was Aslan, the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate in the story as a lion. Just "a lion" wouldn't have done it.



You'd think so, but recent (the past several generations) trends in "Christian" "non-fiction" makes me want to to ensure that the need to represent and cultivate truth is explicit.



I'm not familiar with it; from the Wikipedia article (which looks to me like a review from somewhere ...) it may well be, but probably a simplified form relative to Bunyan, who himself used a massively simplified version of the form. What I want to see is a revival of the form as it was at its height, like in the Faerie Queene.

Amen to that! I feel like I'm getting a lot out of reading this discussion. I have been struggling a bit with how parallel a fantasy world's cosmology should be to that of the familiarworld. Not an easy topic.

Ah, understood. That wasn't my intention at all. He's just the one I am most familiar with, so that's why I went with his books.



Ah, OK. That makes sense.



Yup! I just didn't think that far. Thanks for clarifying that.



I'll have to look into Faerie Queene... it sounds better than Hind's Feet on High Places.

Indeed. I consider it one of the books that everyone ought to read, for edification and delight. But as it is Elizabethan-era poetry, and somewhat deliberately archaic (or arguably, rather, faux-archaic), I recommend reading it for the first time with the help of either someone who's more familiar with it or some sort of commentary (in extremis something like Cliff's Notes).

But back on topic ... I think that between us, the Captain and I may have mostly hashed out what "Christian fantasy" looks like if we take Lewis as our model. How does our perspective change if we take Tolkien, or Macdonald, or Williams (whom I do not reccommend for this purpose, though I think much of his poetry, his novels, and his non-fiction is well worth reading), or someone else as our model?

I'm not sure that the model should change... We write Christian Fantasy. There's already been a Lewis, a Tolkien, and a MacDonald. I, personally, am not fond of writers who strive to follow a certain someone. The world doesn't need another Peretti, they need the next BushMaid (I used you sweetheart, because I knew you would appreciate it ).

As a side note, I too use Lewis as an example in conversation, Captain, because he is perhaps the most widely accepted Christian Fiction writer, thus making him an easy author to use in discussions.

Yes.

I do agree with this. I was more making a point through Lewis and his experiences, not necessarily saying he's the model we should strive to be like. I honestly don't really always like it when people try to become another Lewis or Tolkien and write like him. Instead, we should focus on our own style and our own inspiration. I know I write better when I look at someone's story and then try to write it from another perspective than when I try to create my own world. But I know others work better the complete opposite, or both. Sometimes people do write better when they're going off of someone else' style, but the way I see it is these guys were popular because they were original. So why not try to be original instead of copying those guys?

Those are my two cents. Sorry for the small rant.

Yes ... and no. Imitating those who have gone before is part of what makes a genre a genre, and something that's similar enough to earlier works to be familiar but different enough to be fresh and new is both easier to write than and arguably superior to something completely new.

But:

I'm not talking about who we should model our writing after , but for our discussion of "what is 'good Christian fantasy' anyway? What are its essential elements?" the Captain picked Lewis as our (to use a less ambiguous phrase) case study, so she asked whether putting in a Christ-figure or "allegorical" elements is necessary. I think we've about exhausted the lines of inquiry that Lewis's fantasy affords us, so let's look at other authors. One possible question (merely rhetorical in this group, probably) one might ask after looking at Tolkien is whether you have to create a vast world in great detail, including thousands of years of history?

More seriously, look at MaDonald. Of his fantasy I've only read The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie, and that was before I really realized that there was such a thing as "Christian fantasy" as distinct from mere "fantasy". Looking back, I get the definite sense that those two novels are certainly "Christian fantasy" and not merely "fantasy written by a Christian", but I can't put my finger on why.


How ... odd. Perhaps it's because his books are thought of as children's books, or perhaps because it might be easier to forget that Tolkien is a Christian author. Tolkien essentially sparked the genre.

This is an awesome discussion, guys! *Is watching with interest*

I can't tell you how many people say "Tolkien was a Christian?" The reality is that it is easy enough to not realize Tolkien is a Christian because his books do not reflect Christianity much (not a slam on Tolkien, just a fact). Lewis, on the other hand, is much easier to pick up on. Also, many people do not like the darker nature of Tolkien's work, but prefer the lighter tones in Lewis'. Furthermore, many people never finish Tolkien's works because they become bogged down in his technicalities and descriptions.

For all these reasons, Lewis is 85% of the time the author, and Father of Fantasy, that I hear people refer to.

It is also poignant to note that Lewis published LWW 4 years before Tolkien published LofR and the two friends had many discussions about their works.

So who sparked the genre is subject to personal opinion, since I know people who would argue that Tolkien is the Father of Fantasy, and I know people who would argue that Lewis is.



Ah, see, I place all three of the men in question under the same model. Fantasy. So yes, I agree with you, I just don't break the three men apart, as a general rule. However, you can certainly find differences between them, their styles, and the ways in which they showed their Christianity in their writings.



Again, it comes down to what you call modeling. Case study I am happy to talk about.

As a side note, no, I absolutely do not think you need to have a history dense world like Tolkien did, in order to write effectively.


And I agree, Captain. The funny thing though, is that for all our rants on clichés, it is important to note at clichés were used because they work and people identify with them. Thus, even the most original people have patterned their stories off of someone, in my mind. I use the Dragon Rider argument all the time (seeing as I have Diegosian Riders). Just because Eragon has Dragon Riders, does not mean he invented them and we all cannot use them. The Japanese children have been told stories about dragon tamers and riders for centuries.

(*smiles* I did. )

*continues watching discussion*

This topic is positively fascinating. I'm so glad I found the theology board, this is a subject I ponder over a lot in regards to the fantasy genre. However, I feel I may be the most conservative one here, because I don't read Narnia or Lord of the Rings because I don't agree with magic. I'm afraid my knowledge of "Christian Fantasy" other than my own, some of my friends', and the Kingdom Series by Chuck Black, is non exisent.

I'm a little more forward in how I fit God into my stories because I find it irksome when people just leave His slot ambiguous in stories that are more serious, and more lengthy. For me, it's not enough to just 'let your Christianity seep in'. I'm not sure if it's the same way for everyone, but to me it sounds lazy and dangerous. There was a writer I was aquainted with once who wrote rather dark (and I don't mean heavy or even severe, I mean the playing with fire type) fantasy, and said that he never intentionally put God, or Christianity, into his stories. He did realize that worldview gets into stories no matter what, so he figured Christianity slipped into his, but he didn't do it on purpose. Which you could tell by the kinds of stories he wrote that he didn't intentionally let his faith guide his stories.

At the very least, in the modern world, readers do not read from a Christian perspective any more. Any gaps left in a story will be filled in with the gnostic, evolutionary, or materialist worldviews that permeat our culture nowadays. I don't think this means we're allowed to be more obvious with our symbols or Christian truths in especially our fantasy -- in fact, obviousness turns even Christians off quicker these days -- but I think it does mean we should not be timid.

Like I said.... I know next to nothing about Christian Fantasy authors, or even non-Christian fantasy authors. Mostly because there is next to no magic-free fantasy out there. I just write my own. It's working pretty well so far. (This turned out far longer than I inteded it to..... >.>)

* peeps in * Well...they were allegories, so perhaps that has something to do with it? I don't know.

But they're not. True allegory is vanishingly rare in modern fantasy. (I have an essay entitled "Allegory: What it Is and What it Isn't" that's in the queue to run on the HW blog sometime soonish, and this isn't the place even if I didn't, so I won't give my full explanation here, but the most obvious way of telling that The Princess and the Goblin isn't an allegory is that to understand a true allegory properly the reader has to know that it is one heading in, so the author of a true allegory always indicates that it is, and Macdonald (to the best of my knowledge) never said any such thing about The Princess and the Goblin.)

What would you say to someone who says that Christian fiction must be explicitly Christian, and says that God-glorifying fiction like Narnia is just fluff?

"You're wrong."

*chuckles*

Same answer from me.

Hrm... what I would want to say is "Why do you believe that?" Ask them questions to find out why they feel that way, because there most likely is a legitimate reason for them to think that way. And then I'd want to share how I view the subject, and hope that at least, if we don't agree, that we can respect each other's beliefs and maybe be a little more open to each other's points of views.

What would actually come out of my mouth.... I'm not sure. I think I'd have to be in the situation to know...

Excellent question, Sui.

Yes. Figuring out their objections might help in explaining it so that they can understand. Christian fiction is simply fiction that clearly illustrates Biblical truth, and this can be done in fantasy.

But if one doesn't write explicitly Christian (whether fantasy or otherwise), couldn't the reader connect the principles to anything but Christianity?

They could, which is why presentation is important. However, it does mean every single story has to show the source of truth, only that it must point towards the truth. The Bible, for example, has stories that do not mention God. This has been seized on by some as an excuse not to have God in stories, but that isn't what we should learn from such stories. What we should learn is that Christian writings should generally have God in them, and when sometimes they happen to not directly mention Him for various reasons, they can and should still point towards Him.

The problem someone might have with fantasy is how to point towards God from a secondary world.

*nods* Actually, in my writing I find it extremely easy to include an obvious God figure. It's even so far as to be hard not to include Him.

I suppose. But unless you view your stories first and foremost as evangelistic tools, so what? You are not responsible for a reader's misinterpretation of your story.

Yes, but in so doing, they're unknowingly connecting to the principles of Christianity. All the principles in the world have a basic foundation in God's principles. The 10 Commandments have been a basis of morality and law since they were instituted. The world tends to throw out the non-essentials, such as keeping the Sabbath and and not worshipping any false gods. But even in today's messed up climate, there is still a general acceptance that some things--murdering, stealing--are morally wrong.

God was before time, omnipotent and sovereign. He wrote the rules, and anything that would be considered a principal is undergirded by the structure He created. All truth derives from Him, even if those who write such things don't believe that.

In terms of Christian Fantasy, there could be many definitions and if I went into them all know it would give me a headache. A work of fiction doesn't necessarily have to include a Christ-figure to be considered Christian, but even then, as Christians, we can't help but have our faith underpin what we write, so we may include a character that represents Christ or God without even intending it. A true Christian fantasy is one that in its essence reflects, like a mirror, the greatest story ever told. It doesn't have to be the object itself, but merely a representation of that object.