One of the themes I hope to express---though as a natural outgrowth of the story, not as an infodump or an ex cathedra authoris lecture---and at times even emphasize in my "Shine Cycle" is heroism, including what it is and why it's important. I've searched for threads on the topic (searching just titles, as there are 12 pages of threads containing either "honor" or "honour" in their "message text") and come up empty, so I'm creating this one for discussion of the subject and how to work it into the story.

It's really, really hard to define "honor" precisely yet accurately. My understanding of it includes the ideas of both virtue and holiness, but neither is quite sufficient---to begin with, the former can be to some extent taught, but true honor can really only be distinguished from false or "imitation" honor when tested. Like a shield, honor can be true, bringing glory to God its maker and to its possessor in its day of trial, or it can be false, decorative and superficially beautiful but proving to be a betrayer when tested.

I find it instructive to contrast honor with chivalry. Where honor primarily (but not only) concerns itself with intentions, chivalry is a matter of actions, of obedience to a code---for (the most central and obvious) example, keeping one's word. But, as Shakespeare put it through the mouth of his character Othello, "a man may smile, and smile, and be a villain"; neither flawless courtesy nor scrupulous observance of the rules of chivalry is enough. And while chivalry (though containing rules about the treatment of commoners) restricted itself originally to the nobility on the argument that they should avoid unchivalrous and dishonorable behavior because "noblesse oblige", honor cannot be so restricted: anyone from the poorest peasant to the king can be honorable or dishonorable, and honor is desirable and valuable for its own sake, not because of anyone's position in society.

In the world of my Shine Cycle, the Shine and Wild Empire (the "country" with which I am most concerned) has deliberately aimed to cultivate honor in its citizens, officials, and allies. Honorable behavior is expected---even when not legally required---of all, and a typical standard education includes extensive explanation and exploration of the theory and ethics of honor and of the motivation behind the societal expectations. On the surface, the culture looks much like a chivalry-driven quasi-medieval society, but it's widely understood that honorable and chivalrous action is not enough.

The Empire, with the help of its allies and friends, has managed to impose "something like a code of conduct" in international relations, but all are resigned to the fact that true honor is impossible in the Dragon Empire until the last of the old order (the fallen Ayna---i.e. angel-equivalent---Tashere, who ruled it for most of its history was expelled from the universe at the beginning of the War of Power, but his apprentice Gondolor replaced him as it's ruler and is as thoroughly corrupt as he was) falls.

Turning away from my worldbuilding again, in her novel A Civil Campaign Lois McMaster Bujold has the main protagonist's father lecture him on the distinction between honor and reputation ("Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.") and then has him tell his fiancee-to-be (the story is somewhat complicated), when she asks him how he could bear to swear an oath of office after being forsworn once, "What, when they issued you your honor, didn't they give you the model with the reset button? Mine's right here," pointing at his navel, then after the laughter has lightened the situation, he says that the best advice he's gotten has been to "just go on." I find the reputation-as-external-honor-as-internal distinction to be useful as far as it goes, but rather simplistic; on the other hand, as a Christian I know that "resetting" one's honor doesn't come down to forgiving oneself and "just go[ing] on" (which I on reflection find a somewhat dangerous idea) but rather to repentance and confession to and absolution from God.

What do you all think?

Well, I think that instead of which, like you said, is a very bad idea, I think that you could say that God restores our honor, and that our honor isn't found in ourselves, if that makes sense...God can help someone do honorable things, thereby granting them honor, but that honor wasn't earned by them, but by God's grace they've achieved an honorable lifestyle (or whatever).
Is this even the right way to answer? My head hurts a little, I hope that helped somehow...

Like I said at the beginning, my idea of "honor" includes both "virtue" and "holiness", but goes beyond them. I rather doubt that anyone on this forum would agree with Bujold's idea.

I wasn't trying to imply anyone here would, sorry. I guess I misunderstood your question?

(I probably should have stuck a on the end of my last reply.) I didn't mean to get any such implication from your comment; what I said was a more general form of "you'll get no argument from me!". But the question with which I closed the head post was intended to apply to any and all parts of its content, and to the topic as a whole, not just to the last digression which immediately preceded it.

I know how that is, sometimes I do that with my posts.



Oh, I see now.



Ok, I understand.
Well, here are some more general thoughts aimed at your worldbuilding:



I like that, I think that's a big part of it, you need to follow the spirit of the law, not only the letter of it...and I think that's part of what makes it hard to grasp, if you know what I mean, it's harder to think of the abstract "spirit of the law" than it is to think of the "letter of the law" even though we know that we are in a way breaking the law if we, having found a loophole, do something that is against the "spirit" of the law (or, in this case, some sort of ethical code or whatever)...when someone is making it a point to follow some rules, even when those rules have loopholes, then you can tell that they are sincere (unless of course, they are acting, but you know what I mean).

Really, I like this as a theme, and it'll probably show up a few times in my own writing even though I hadn't thought to make it a emphasized point in it.

What I'm trying to get at here is that "honor" is more than even "following the spirit of the (law, code, or whatever)", as chivalry (which, above, I used as the external-s/actions-only contrast) might reasonably cover situations the code doesn't explicitly extend to. The point of honor is for the actions to be right because the heart is right. And "actors", to use your term, who do what's right because it's expected of them rather than because their heart is right, are indeed a problem---but, on the other hand, that's a better situation than those people not doing what's right if the societal expectation isn't there.

The advantages of writing about a world that's overwhelmingly-majority-Christian.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at, but I sorta talked myself into a corner, thanks for unraveling that.

I think that's awesome, I hope to read about that place in a book someday.

I've really enjoyed reading this, these are some very good thoughts. I hadn't thought about some of those things before.