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 Post subject: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 3:48 pm 
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I've been taking another look at Wish Flight, and I decided I didn't want to be limiting myself to one POV. In fact, the lovely troupe of sisters plus their half-brother would all have very interesting POVs! I would love to write this story switching between all five PO- wait, five? :?

I suppose if someone could talk me down to one or two POVs, that would work, but I'm actually wondering if anyone has seen several POVs handled well. I want to get my hands on such books and study them.

I created these characters with the express purpose I having fun with their different and colliding personalities, and now look where I am. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do?
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 4:32 pm 
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Well... I use 7 POV, actually, so you will get 100 percent backing from me. :D

Tierin is obviously my MC, so we get the most POV from him. Airi is the second MC, if you will, thus she has the second most POV. From there we have the villain, Dunndar, who has a handful of POV scenes, and his minions get POV parts (Shadar in the first book, Volgarin in the second). Alonah gets a small amount of POV scenes, but she does count as a POV character. In the second book of my trilogy Mikhail has a handful of POV parts as well, which is what brings me up to 7.

I personally like multiple POVs because it allows you to do multiple things. You can describe your characters and their actions (including the MC) from other people's perspectives, that way you don't have the MCs philosophizing about themselves. You get a grander scope for the world, as seen through the eyes of multiple people. You get to explore the motivations of bad guys vs good guys... the list goes on.

The Left Behind series would be a sample of well written books that have multiple POVs. There are 5 major MCs who get a lot of POV time, and then there is a mix of other POVs from secondary characters, from time to time.

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Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do?
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 4:54 pm 
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I did not know your stories had so many POVs! I feel in appropriate company.

My, my, did you just recommend the Left Behind series? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do?
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 5:25 pm 
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*chuckles * Why thank you. :D Yes, I have several POVs, as you can see. Course, I have 120,000 words per book in the Trilogy, so I can spread all those POVs out. :D

*laughs * I may not agree doctrinally with the Left Behind Series on many topics, but there is no denying that they are well written, well crafted stories. :D

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Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

Works in progress:

The Diegosian Mark, 115,600 words (Preparing for Publication)
The Diegosian Rider, 121,400 words (Finished)
The Diegosian Warrior, 15,000 (In Progress)


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do?
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 5:42 pm 
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I have over three, if not four POVs in Penalty, although its estimated length is about 45 - 55 thousand words. :D But it's 3rd person, with three MCs who are in separate chapters on several occasions.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do?
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 6:08 pm 
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I know I don't agree with the theology in the Left Behind books, but I've no problem reading them for craft-of-writing education. :)

Here's where I differ from you guys: I was looking at switching POVs every scene. I felt I couldn't give each one their own chapter because we would have to wait too long to get inside the head of everyone in the story (it's very adventuresome and quickly paced), but the challenge of creating sympathy and empathy with each viewpoint when giving it so little time to become established before switching to another scared me! I'm interested in reading books with both rapid and not-so-rapid POV switching, to see which would work better.

You know, I am recalling having read such a book as I am requesting called Bella at Midnight. It has three or so main character POVs and many secondary POVs. They each had their own chapter, but I believe the chapters were often short. I'll need to reread it.

I just italicized the title in that last paragraph and realized it sounded like a companion to the Twilight series. :rofl: FTR, it's NOT!

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 6:45 pm 
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*shuffles in, hands clasped behind her back* I suppose I'm rather the oddball here...I have sixteen separate POVs. :blush:

The three main ones are Arionwyn, Aaron, and Iri, but I also have substantial chunks from Clark, Fairivel, and ... eleven other people. :P Crazy thing is, one of them is first person, and all the others are third. I drew the line at making some of them present tense and some past tense though.

As for books with multiple POVs...Lemme get back to you on that. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 6:48 pm 
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Too many points-of-view?

Nonsense!
God bless,
Joel ><>.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 7:23 pm 
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Eleutheria Mimetes wrote:
*shuffles in, hands clasped behind her back* I suppose I'm rather the oddball here...I have sixteen separate POVs. :blush:

o.O

Quote:
As for books with multiple POVs...Lemme get back to you on that. ;)

Yes, please, whatever inspired you to embark on your insane endeavor!

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 7:42 pm 
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I don't nessesarily have one POV per chapter. I switch between scenes, from time to time. :D

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The Rainbow in the Storm- My Blog

Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

Works in progress:

The Diegosian Mark, 115,600 words (Preparing for Publication)
The Diegosian Rider, 121,400 words (Finished)
The Diegosian Warrior, 15,000 (In Progress)


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 6:07 am 
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I have a lot of POV's as well; more than five. :)

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From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
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Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
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My favourite quote: "God will give His kindness for you to use when your own runs out."

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 9:32 am 
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Multiple POVs are wonderful . . . as long as you avoid switching them mid-scene. :blush: Sometimes it can be smooth and useful, but most of the time it's confusing and sloppy, and that's where I have problems.

I do multiple POVs. Azura mostly, Arctax gets a lot of screen time, so to speak, and Niama gets the occasional opinion in. Other than that, I have a lot of POV from Zanraz, a couple from assorted Polarians and an Ananthi, and others from Silvergold, Jade, Talik, and so forth . . .
I'm nowhere close to E, though. ;)

Redwall by Brian Jacques has lots of POVs. Firebird by Kathy Tyers has smooth POV switches (and the Annotated version has lots of writing tips). Other than that, I can't think of a lot of books with multiple POVs. I'll look forward to seeing what else comes up. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 9:34 am 
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Ciela Tsana Mimetes wrote:
Multiple POVs are wonderful . . . as long as you avoid switching them mid-scene. :blush: Sometimes it can be smooth and useful, but most of the time its confusing and sloppy, and that's where I have problems.



That's what I worry about in mine, and it's what I'll want to hear about from my test readers.

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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king

J. R. R. Tolkien


My favourite quote: "God will give His kindness for you to use when your own runs out."

Pippin's Waggy Tales

Autumn Leaves


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 9:50 am 
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Yeah, have to be careful with POV switches in the middle of a scene. I watch out for that in my own book, actually. See, I have had a couple of times where one sentence in a scene is a POV switch. I don't realize it when I write it, and many of my Betas don't see it, but eventually the realization hits (or my POV Beta Reader will catch it). That is where I struggle with POV switching. Those tiny little bits that should be said from the POV character's point of view. :P

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The Rainbow in the Storm- My Blog

Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

Works in progress:

The Diegosian Mark, 115,600 words (Preparing for Publication)
The Diegosian Rider, 121,400 words (Finished)
The Diegosian Warrior, 15,000 (In Progress)


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 7:33 pm 
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I've seen several POVs handled well by expert authors (Lois McMaster Bujold does this the best of all the authors I've read, and the late Robert Jordan also handled it quite well). But in general, the fewer POV switches, the better. I'd recommend starting with at most two POV characters, and cautiously working your way up to four, but how many a story needs depends on its scope (Bujold's one novel with four POVs is an Austen-esque "comedy of biology and manners" with the somewhat complicated plot that description suggests, while Jordan has a large number of POV characters because his story---stretching to fourteen books---is immense in scope yet intricately detailed and complicated in its plot).

The first and most important thing is that POV has to be absolutely clear. We (the reader) have to know whose head we're in (from/through whose perspective we're seeing things), and it has to be very obvious when this changes. It's a very good idea to not change perspective at all in the middle of a scene or section.

A second point is to not multiply POVs just to let us see different characters' thoughts and emotions. The reason to use someone as a POV character is to give us information that we otherwise couldn't get (except by the author contriving to have the character meet the POV character and info-dump it), or to give a substantially different perspective on events. And once you've added a new POV charater, it's better to use that character again if you can rather than adding yet another.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 8:18 pm 
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I have one story that has two MCs and occasionally switches POV to side characters when needed. I love the scope and depth that multiple POVs can give, and I don't know if you can have too many (Well...yes, you can. A book with over 30 POVs would be hard to get through.), if you do it well.

As for recommending books for multiple POVs...LOTR, for one thing. And also there's Auralia's Colors and the rest of the books that switched POVs quite frequently, at least the ones I have read do.

I also have a book I can point you to on how not to do it. ;) I literally put the book down and wouldn't finish it because this was done poorly. In this book (which I won't mention by name at this point), there are over 7 POV characters. Which is fine. Except the authors did not give that much thought as to how to go about handling the POV changes. I couldn't keep track of the characters and their settings, their names, their personalities, sub plots, and I was never able to relate to any of them. In one instance they introduced us to a character in one chapter and left it on a cliffhanger, but not get back to it after eight or nine chapters of more disjointed confusion, until I had almost completely forgotten about the character and the cliffhanger.

There were other reasons as to why I didn't like this book, but that was the major reason I put it down.

So when shifting POVs, make sure that you put a lot of thought into how you handle the characters. Make sure the reader has a chance to get to know the character, and don't go too long without covering the character again.

Ultimately, multiple POVs can be very powerful and effective, and each POV adds another layer of depth in the story. But it does have to be used carefully. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 19th, 2012, 9:01 pm 
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Thank you, Redwing, I agree. :D

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The Rainbow in the Storm- My Blog

Be careful of your thoughts; guard your mind, for your thoughts become words. Be guarded when you speak, for your words turn into action. Watch what you do, for your actions will become habits. Be wary of your habits, for they become your character. Pray over your character; strive to mold it to the image of Christ, because your character will shape your destiny.

Ideas can germinate from the smallest seeds. Collect those seeds, and let them grow in the back of your mind. You may be surprised by what finally blooms.

When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you. Instead, He’s opening your hands to receive something better. The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you.

Works in progress:

The Diegosian Mark, 115,600 words (Preparing for Publication)
The Diegosian Rider, 121,400 words (Finished)
The Diegosian Warrior, 15,000 (In Progress)


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 20th, 2012, 5:13 am 
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That was a good post, Red! :) Thanks.

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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king

J. R. R. Tolkien


My favourite quote: "God will give His kindness for you to use when your own runs out."

Pippin's Waggy Tales

Autumn Leaves


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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 20th, 2012, 2:57 pm 
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Thank you for all these tips, everybody! Have fun with your multiple POVs, Kath. :)

To paraphrase another author: You can get away with practically anything in a book, as long as you do it well.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 20th, 2012, 8:04 pm 
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Ciela Tsana Mimetes wrote:
Redwall by Brian Jacques has lots of POVs. Firebird by Kathy Tyers has smooth POV switches (and the Annotated version has lots of writing tips). Other than that, I can't think of a lot of books with multiple POVs. I'll look forward to seeing what else comes up. :D

Ooh, I never realized how many POV switchings Firebird has, even though the series is one of my favorites! I also have the Redwall books on hand. Looks like my sister will finally get me to read some. ;)

kingjon wrote:
I've seen several POVs handled well by expert authors (Lois McMaster Bujold does this the best of all the authors I've read, and the late Robert Jordan also handled it quite well). But in general, the fewer POV switches, the better. I'd recommend starting with at most two POV characters, and cautiously working your way up to four, but how many a story needs depends on its scope (Bujold's one novel with four POVs is an Austen-esque "comedy of biology and manners" with the somewhat complicated plot that description suggests, while Jordan has a large number of POV characters because his story---stretching to fourteen books---is immense in scope yet intricately detailed and complicated in its plot).

I've not heard of either of these authors, but shall look into them. Thank you.

And thank you everyone who has talked about the craft of multiple POVs - Especially Red and Kingjon. Y'all mentioned a few things I really need to consider, such as the function of each of the POVs.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 30th, 2012, 3:18 pm 
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I like multiple POVs, though I don't usually write them. In the story I wrote during NaNo, I had two MCs who I would switch back and forth every chapter. Both in third person. I think if you have multiple POVs, first person would get too confusing. (Sorry E :P )

In the fantasy novel I am planning, Anria is the main character, but the five people she is with all will have some POv scenes. All in third person.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 31st, 2012, 12:29 am 
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Aliza Rose Mimetes wrote:
I think if you have multiple POVs, first person would get too confusing.

If each character has a sufficiently distinctive voice (and the POV character's voice should, IMO, come through whether you're writing in first or third person), having multiple first-person POVs isn't necessarily any more confusing than multiple POVs in general.

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Creator of the Shine Cycle, an expansive fantasy planned series, spanning over two centuries of an imagined world's history, several universes (including various alternate histories and our own future), and the stories of dozens of characters (many from our world).

Developer of Strategic Primer, a strategy/simulation game played by email; currently in a redesign phase after the ending of "the current campaign" in 2022.

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 Post subject: Re: Too many POVs! What to do? *Book Recommendations*
PostPosted: March 31st, 2012, 9:58 am 
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I've only got on first-person POV - the MC - and the rest are third person. :)

The Restorer's Son and The Restorer's Journey are very good examples of multiple first-person perspectives that are very well delineated.

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