How do you approach this? I don't want a debate about Calvinism V Armenianism or anything, but I want to hear people's thoughts on this...because I can see in a lot of Christian fiction how it effects the parts of the book where the character speaks with God and God speaks to them.

In most of those instances it is implied that God has no control over the MC and he begs him to make the right choice. To me, that is a disgusting way to portray a God-figure.
If you can't tell already, I do feel that God is completely Sovereign...there is much much much scripture to support that, in my view (even before I believed this, I felt at odds with some of Paul's writings, and that was unsettling!).

So then, my question. How do you approach God's complete sovereignty (or lack of it if you believe he leaves certain things to your characters decisions) both in your life and in your writing?

Even though I believe God is completely Sovereign, I have no idea how to approach this...I mean, I don't really understand how things work given God's sovereignty, if God's in control, why do we have to do anything (that's not really a question I'm asking, but it's something I don't really understand). How do I convince my character that God is sovereign while saying he must do things to make sure x doesn't happen?

No matter what you believe on this topic, I crave your thoughts.

*doesn't even know if this is a coherent question but posts anyway*

*edit* If you feel like telling me this is an irrelevant topic (to writing a theologically sound story), don't bother, I disagree.

*Council Member steps in *

This topic often becomes very... divisive when spoken of among believers. I ask that any who broach this topic be respectful of both views, no matter your beliefs, and that you approach this as a question about how to write , not your personal reasons for being one or the other. We are all brothers and sisters here, let us keep that in mind.

Thank you.

There are many facts that are true, but not helpful to talk about in any given context. A couple of examples: First, it's true that God made everything, but answering a question about where a car came from with "God made it" rather than "So-and-so parked it there five minutes ago" isn't helpful. Second, it's true that God holds everything together, but it's still worthwhile to investigate gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces, etc. And third, even if (as I'm coming to suspect) free will is an illusion and (as I'm certain) God has total and absolute control, free will and "normal" cause-and-effect are generally far more useful models for day-to-day life. We're told about God's sovereignty for our comfort and assurance, not to confuse us, worry us, or give us headaches.


Agreed. There is, one has to admit, some small Scriptural precedent for that sort of portrayal---but it's in the Prophets' indictments of Israel, describing God's past dealings with the nation, not in any passage where God is actually dealing with a person.
If God's determined that a character is going to do something---that character will do it, eventually. If a character can converse with God as the prophets did, those interactions should be modeled on what the Scriptures tell us about the prophets' relationship with their God, where the prophets were often the ones begging God to relent.

Yes, I do want to avoid debates and stuff, thanks for this reminder.



That is a good analogy (about the car), I see what you are saying there.
I also agree about it being for our comfort and assurance; unfortunately, I manage to turn it into a headache.

Overall, good post. I think I am going to try and model it, like you said, on the prophets when they communicated with God, and try to portray them with the high level of reverence that is exhibited by people in the Bible. Thanks for the well thought-out reply, it's been really helpful for me as I think this through...

I may give my two cents at some point, RunningWolf (or should I start calling you Lycanis, I guess? ), but right now I don't have the time to think carefully about it. This isn't a subject I've engaged in frequently on a theological basis, though I've touched on the relevant science a bit.

You can call me RunningWolf, Wolf, or Lycanis, I like them all.

I would really appreciate your thoughts (especially because I know you see things differently than I do, and I'd like to hear how you've arrived at those conclusions)! No pressure, though, and it is a good idea to take your time if you're going to post a reply...I know this is a confusing topic.

This is a very... difficult topic. It's one I've recently been wondering about. I, by no means, have the perfect answer. This is a topic I'm sure I'll be coming back to time and again with new questions. These are just my thoughts on the subject and what I've observed.

I think that God has the capability of being completely sovereign, and is to an extent. But, He made Himself a bit less sovereign when He gave man free will. God doesn't want to force us to praise Him and love Him. He wants us to love and praise Him on our own, because that love and praise has meaning. If we didn't have our free will to choose that, I think it would be like God playing with a doll that said, "I love you," every time He pushed a button, and that can get really annoying.

The way I view it is, if God has complete and utter control over what is happening, and we don't truly have free will, then why did He let Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of Knowledge and Good and Evil? It's because He wanted them to choose Him. And I think we should reflect this trait of God in the same way in our writing.

Now, this doesn't mean we go and beg for God to move for us. God tells us to go to His throne boldly. I think part of it is sometimes God wants to move, but can't because of how we act. But when we turn and ask Him, He is right there ready to act.

Does that make sense? I feel like it was disconnected... And feel free to ask any questions! And, if this is starting to get it into a debate, feel free to ignore it.

I've started a post for this, but I've saved it and haven't finished it yet. It's not something I like to rush over, it's quite a deep topic.

Someone poke me if I forget to post it over weekend, please!

I've been enjoying reading this thread, and I'll be looking forward to your post, Lady Elanor.

God doesn't give up any sovereign power by giving us free will. For one, sovereign simply means greatest in status, authority or power. It's a relative term. However, he does retain control over the universe with his omnipotence (unlimited power, which is not relative), and his ability to prevent or permit any plan we have, whether that plan is good or bad. By permitting us to choose evil, he does not cause us to choose it as some would claim...I have a lot of complex logical arguments about this which I don't think I need to get into here...

That makes sense, and I don't want to keep people from stating their opinion here even (almost especially) if they disagree with me on some points.

I suppose I would like to ask a question, I do disagree on some points, but I understand at the same time because I recently thought this way, too. Please don't take this question wrong, I just want to see how you respond (don't think I'm trying to refute anything you're saying).

....*thinks very hard*....How does God accomplish his will if his ability to act is affected by our behavior? *gets out study Bible and book stand...thinks some more*



I suppose my question would be, how is it that we react that restrains God from acting? Would it be when we refuse to listen to him? When we want our own way?

(italics mine)

What about when "we all once lived in the passions of our flesh"? How did that ever change, unless our flesh became passionate about listening to God? Did God change our hearts then? (without our help or permission?)

If we carried out "the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." How did we ever start following God (who is so vastly different from our natural tendencies toward our own flesh and desires)?

I guess the bottom line is:
What's the turning point? Surely it was all God's doing, right?

P.S. I really am not trying to start a debate...I just want to understand better how everyone thinks about this and how to approach it in writing.
I will work on responding to the next posts now...

I totally understand, it's definitely nothing to rush over. Looking forward to it (I will try to poke you...if I remember to. )!

I like how you chose to describe that, Luke. I've not heard it said quite like that.

I'm glad this has been interesting for you...I hope that it is edifying to us all in the end!



That is a very interesting way to think about it!...I'm not sure that I entirely agree, though, but that is a very good way to approach it. Mind if I ask you a question, too? (again, I just want to know what you think, especially after seeing how you approach my broader question)

How do (all of you, if you want to respond to this as well) you approach the passage about the "Potter and the clay"?



This is one of the passages that bothered me for awhile (and to tell the truth is still humbling and confusing)...what are your guys' thoughts on it? How should this effect our writing?

I'll note in passing that not all the prophets were always especially reverent. (Jonah? Elijah's trip to Horeb? Moses striking the rock?) The important thing is to portray God as perfect and in control.

(By the way, Wolf, in your post timestamped 10:23, it looks like you're missing a closing italics tag somewhere ...)

Good point, I don't think I meant they would always be treating him the way they should, but I do need to keep in mind that they won't always revere him the way they ought, so that I will show that they are weak in that way (however that should be done, depending on the character and the situation).

(Oops! Thanks... )

Ah, yes...A very interesting topic...

I've yet to find any way to look at this that makes sense and doesn't seem to have at least some conflict with Scripture. For the purposes of story writing, though, I'm not sure it actually matters all that much, because in Scripture we see God telling people to do things when He talks to them, but He also listens their concerns, and often responds to them in some way or another. I wouldn't be too worried about portraying it perfectly, though, because we really can't. After all, He seems to speak at least somewhat differently to different people, and even what's in the prophets isn't necessarily how God would talk to people now.

That is a good point, we won't be able to do a perfect job of it...but I do want to do my best, and I've seen how bad it can effect someone's book...one practically had the God-The-Son figure pleading with the MC...almost as if he were at the character's mercy (maybe not quite, but way too close). That's just not right...

I mostly agree, although I'd have to see the specific example to be sure, but there's something to keep in mind: If anyone that much more powerful would plead with someone that much weaker, it'd be God. If that were the most loving thing to do, would he do it? Hard to say... I agree that it seems very strange for God to be pleading with someone, and yet...it seems very strange for Jesus to die for us, too. But are they the same kind of strangeness? I really don't know. But I also wouldn't be inclined to rule it out as something God would never do. Mind you, I don't think I'd ever write it, either. There is what we see in the prophets, which, at times, looks an awful lot like pleading, and while the idea of God being at a person's mercy is absurd, so, IMO, is the idea of God making someone love Him. Perhaps part of the difficulty is that God doesn't necessarily have to actively make someone do something, when He can, if He wants, simply steer said person into doing it. And I'm kind of rambling, so I'll stop now. In case you can't tell, my general view on this subject has lots of 'I have no idea' parts in it...

Honestly, I think His will is messed up a LOT by humans (both Christian and non-believers). First of all, His will, I believe, is for everyone to be saved and to know Him. But will it happen? No. Why? Because humans get the choice. But I also believe that God has an infinite amount of plan B's. When things don't go along with His plan A, He uses what we give Him to the fullest point that we allow Him. If we have no faith, He can't work very much. If we have a lot of faith, He can work in huge ways. He's always working and will always turn all things to good for those who love Him, but He can't always do it in the caliber that He wants to because we won't let Him (intentionally, or unintentionally...).

(By the way, if I ever at all seem to be getting offensive, please let me know. I don't think I am, but I still want to make sure no one is offended by what I'm saying)



I think it varies. *thinks she could express her thoughts better if she were talking instead of typing, but isn't sure*



Ah, but that's the thing! We DID give him permission when we accepted Him as our savior. When we accepted Him, our spirits literally became God's spirit, and we are new. This makes us more in-tune to hearing God. And we (hopefully) keep listening to God on how we can improve personally. But spiritually, God has already made us perfect. But that's another discussion for another time, I think...



AIE! O.O I have so many disconnected thoughts on that... I'll try to get back to you on it... Poke me if I don't. I'm just trying to make sense of my thoughts so I can communicate them in a coherent way. And I've got school to do now...(On a side note, do you have skype? 'Cause if my mom says I can add you [which she most likely would], I'd like to voice chat about this with you... that might be a bit easier)

(Totally understand... and I'm sorry if I start debating. PLEASE STOP ME IF I DO! Seriously. I'm a debater [literally. I compete in debate], and I enjoy debating. So if I start debating, let me know and I can continue my thoughts through PM.)

I know what you mean, but I can't seem to think of any time in scripture that God pleaded with anyone...even Jesus when he was being crucified (but of course the people were fulfilling his plans at the time).
Of course I can't say either that God would never do it (I have a hard time being sure about most anything, but I would have to have infinite knowledge to know God would not do it...but from what I see in scripture it doesn't seem to fit his personality).



Well, I can't find it, but there is a passage (or verse) in Isaiah that makes it sound like God only reveals himself in a way to woo someone if they are his Chosen...



One instance of God choosing who to reveal himself to, is when he chose the Israelites...or Abraham, and blessed them. Was it because Abraham was such an awesome guy? Did Abraham earn the blessing...did he earn the grace that God showed him (and his offspring) time and again (and again, and again, and again............)?

Even still, I don't really understand how this all works, I'm not claiming to understand anything that much.
For instance, I don't understand why God would hide "these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children." but does that mean anything at all really? The only thing it shows really is that God's ways are not ours...

You're good, you're not being offensive so far. But the same goes for me, let me know if I'm being offensive as well.
Something about God having plan Bs doesn't seem to click...wouldn't he know what was going to happen (even if he wasn't really in control), and have one all-sufficient plan? It seems almost impossible, but God isn't restricted by that.



I know how that is, I seem to be able to communicate better when talking too, so if something I say makes absolutely no sense, you know why.



So we gave him permission to claim our hearts "while we were yet sinners"? Because we're not new until after we are saved (it seems like being saved is something someone else does, often without permission too, just a thought).



"I have so many disconnected thoughts on that..." So do I. I will poke you (if I remember to), take your time.

"And I've got school to do now..." I have chores to do as well...

About Skype...yes, and I like the idea of talking about it that way...it would definitely make things easier...but I will have to get back to you on that because my parents might be a little nervous about it (but would be more likely to give consent if we just do sound), so I will ask and possibly PM you what they say.

...Wow, I've sort of wanted to do debate...and *looks up definition of debate* I think we are debating...but I think we're doing it in an edifying way, I will tell you if I think you're going too far though (and you should do the same for me!).

Thanks for the time you've all taken to discuss this...I will be back later.

*removes a bunch of smilies*

I think kingjon and Arien made some excellent points. I'm going to mash 'em (their points, not them ) together and expound.

I think God's sovereignty is one of those concepts we will never fully understand. We are not sovereign, so for us to wrap our finite brains around the mind and will of a God that is infinite is impossible. Therefore, I think it's natural that we would struggle portraying this element in our novels, because we do not fully understand it in real life.

However, we don't need to fully understand it to portray it accurately in a novel. Why? Because our characters are flawed like we are. We do not understand fully how God works; therefore, our characters do not need to fully understand how God works. The best way to write a realistic portrayal of God's sovereignty in our characters' lives is to mimic how we see God working in our lives.

So look around you. How do you see God working in your everyday life? How do you feel His sovereignty affects your everyday decisions? How do you see Him working in history? How did He interact with people in the Bible? Give your characters the same flawed perspective that you have - make your characters admit that they don't understand - and it will be realistic.

I think one way we can grasp our flawed perspective and translate it to our characters is to look at how we write our novels, as kingjon mentioned. People talk of novels "writing themselves." Characters change, plot twists arise, scenes fail and we have to rewrite. Some writers are more spontaneous than others, but even the most methodical writers have to allow a story to naturally develop through brainstorming and rewriting. If we try to force our story to be something it's not meant to be (such as refusing to kill a darling), the writing will fall flat.

So in a way, it feels like our novels write themselves. But they don't literally write themselves. They can't. If we take our hands off the keyboard, the words won't type. And we don't have characters standing behind our chair holding a knife to our throat saying "Write me this way! " Every single word that goes into that book has to be put there by us. Sometimes the inspiration may seem to come from nowhere, but we have to agree to put the words on the page.

I think we can use this model to understand a little better how God's sovereignty works with free will. We believe God is sovereign, and nothing happens without His permission. He has to "type the words." He is ordering everything, and He has an ultimate plan and it will be accomplished.

But we, on our finite level, can't see His ultimate plan. We can only focus on our plans and the immediate decisions we have to make. We go through life making choices based on our limited knowledge - just like a writer makes spontaneous decisions during writing. We learn and grow, adjusting as we discover God's will more fully - just like a writer revises and restructures as the story comes through. Sometimes we sin and reap the consequences; plans change, and we wonder how things might be better otherwise. Sometimes God even bemoans how He would have liked to bless us had we made a different decision - similar to how a writer weeps over having to kill scenes and plot twists they loved. Sometimes we suffer for doing right, or we don't understand what God is doing at all - like a writer that isn't sure yet where a plot twist is going.

But we can trust that, no matter how lost we may feel, God's plan will come through. His purposes will be accomplished, and we can trust that everything is working out for our good. We may not understand it. We may not be able to see it. We may wonder if we made things worse than they had to be - or wonder if the disaster was an inevitable part of God's plan. But no matter what, we can trust that God's plan will come through. Neither us nor the "bad guys" can prevent it, no matter how sinful and rebellious we might be. We can trust in His sovereignty, even though we don't understand - just like a writer can trust that, through hard work and revisions, the story will eventually morph into a complete novel that can be used to glorify God.

So my suggestion would be to capture that combination of trust and spontaneity. Your characters don't understand God's ultimate plan, nor do they fully understand how their free will works into that ultimate plan. They can never understand. But they can learn to seek God's guidance as they use their free will to face the decisions that come to them everyday. They can learn and grow, gradually becoming more aware of what God wants for them. When they make mistakes they can wonder how things might have been better and learn from their grief; they can watch how God works in spite of their sin and learn from His mercy. But through it all they can trust.

That is how I would handle it. For fiction that's set in a New Testament kind of environment, where God doesn't speak through prophets or "call through the clouds" much (if at all), your own experience plus some prayer will probably be sufficient in creating a realistic portrayal. You can draw on your own experience of praying to and being led by God. If your book includes instances where God speaks more literally, I would recommend primarily studying Scripture and mimicking the tone and format. Ask yourself - what is the purpose of this conversation? What is the spiritual state of the human? What is God going to tell them - is He rebuking them and telling them their punishment, or instructing them where to go? Issuing a general prophecy for the future? Will the character obey or rebel? Find a situation in the Bible with similar emotions and study God's words and the character's response. Note if God came back later with "additional" information. The Bible is your most trustworthy guide for understanding how God works, so copy it.

Wow, thank you so much Aubrey! That's the best analogy I've heard for it before, I tried to think up a writing analogy too, but I think it sort of fell flat...I'm going to copy your post and save it for reference ok?

I don't think God has plan Bs the same humans do. But I do think that He always has a best, which could be considered plan A, only even that isn't entirely correct. Take the Fall, for example. Obviously God did not make them for the purpose of them sinning, but what He made out of it was (is), I believe, better than what it could have been without it. But then there are other times, I think, where because of what we do, something good happens instead of the best. That would be the plan B situations, I think, even though God knows full well that this is what will happen, because He leaves the best there anyway, knowing full well we will choose something else. Because if He removes it, then it isn't our failing anymore, exactly. Although, since He's God, and knows what would happen, you could argue that it's still our fault, because what we would have chosen, but that doesn't seem to fit with Scripture or my experience. So I guess I'd say that God has plan B situations, but that they're different from ours, because He knows he'll need to use it, even if it isn't the best. Sometimes He seems to go with something completely different, sometimes He takes a longer or harder path to the same place. You could, I suppose, argue that everything that has happened is actually the best possible, and you might even be right, since we really have no way of knowing, but that seems iffy to me.


Hmm. Maybe, but what about Israel in general? He always refers to the Israelites as His chosen people, so far as I know, and large portions of the prophets consist of Him trying to turn Israel back to Him. And even so, if He is actually wooing them, that would require some ability to choose, right? (And yes, I do consider 'He's too awesome to not love' to still allow choice.)


Well, we really don't know why God chooses the people He does. Is it because what He knows about what they will do? Is it something else? Or does He not so much choose out of the available people as create that person for what He wants that person to do? All we know is that He chooses certain people for certain things. Another question, actually, is this: When God chooses someone for something, was that person God's first choice, or did God choose that person after someone else refused? I don't think we really know.

Also interesting is the fact that God sometimes refers to even some of the heathen nations as His, and not in a way that suggests (to me, at least) that He's just talking about control, but as something He even cares about. I could be wrong, though...


Oh, and a good post, Aubrey. I definitely agree on God's sovereignty being one of those things we'll never understand. (At least not until heaven) Along with many other things about God...

Arien, that was beautiful! I think that was what I was trying to say.

Basically, I think that God has a BEST plan, but we tend to mess up that best plan, and God always has ways to still make good out of the situation, but that does not necessarily mean it was His best. It's not that God was unable, but that humans were the fault because of their free will and decisions to do something else.

So, thanks for getting that out for me, Arien.

So you're saying things turned out better because they sinned? So plan B was better than plan A? I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little confused by this whole paragraph...so if I ignore a point you made, it's not on purpose.



My point, is that he did choose Israel, and that this is an example of election, none of us understand why He chooses who He chooses for what...but we know it's right because it was God's decision...and those that don't choose him were not chosen by him for salvation.
There is a book by someone a lot smarter than I am called The Sovereignty of God, it is written from the point of view that God is completely Sovereign (and that means we can't mess up his plans)...I'm not saying "I'm right and you're wrong." I'm just saying this book is very convincing to me if anyone wants to think about it more.



That's an interesting view.

Another good book to read is What Love Is This? By Dave Hunt.

However, just to throw this out there, books should be used, in my opinion, as a resource after you have determined what you believe from the Bible. The bottom line should be what the Bible says. (As I am sure everyone will agree )


I have been collecting some thoughts together, I will post them for you all at some point.

Awesome post, Aubrey! Thank you for writing all that up.

You guys look like you're getting a good discussion going here.

What I was trying to say is that God's version of plan A and plan B are far more complicated than for us, and that sometimes it's really not the best terminology. But thinking about this more, if what has ended up happening is better, then does that mean that what was at the beginning was not perfect? Or that something can be better than that which is perfect? *mind explodes* Now I'm trying to remember what all the reasons for thinking that what has happened/will happen is better than if the Fall never happened...



Yes...and no. Yes, God chose them out of all the nations, but I don't think we actually have any reason to believe that God would not accept any others. In fact, some of the kings in the general area seemed to have knowledge of God in Abraham's time, and while that doesn't mean that God didn't elect the Israelites, or anything like that, it does mean that God was doing things that we never really learn about in the Bible.
And as to it being right, I think a better way to say it would be that God made the decision because it was right, rather than that the decision is right because God made it. And...we don't actually know that those who don't choose God weren't chosen by Him for salvation, and in fact, I'd be inclined to argue that large portions of the prophets make no sense from that point of view.

I really should look at more things about it, but there are actually a lot of things that make sense to me if we do have free will and therefore can (sort of) mess up God's plans. Not, mind you, that you can really mess up the plans of someone who knows what's going to happen. But that doesn't rule out your actions causing Him to choose a different plan. After all, that's what prayer is about, isn't it? Further, I have yet to be convinced that God's sovereignty of necessity means that He must be in absolute control to the point where we have no free will. In fact, I don't see why God can't be in complete control and still give us free will. And no matter what position I take, I have yet to find one that doesn't seem to either contradict or not mesh well with parts of Scripture. And...God still seems a lot more loving to me if He has given us free will of some sort, at least.

Anyway, I should probably stop before we drift too far off-topic...

I'll look into getting that book from the library.

I agree with that, I got TSoG after I had decided that God must be more Sovereign than it may seem...

*edit* Aww, can't get that book from the library...thanks for the suggestion anyway though!

Ah, I see now.


You may have been thinking about how if we stayed in Eden we would never go to heaven...and I am convinced that no human has any idea what perfect is. Perhaps something perfect is something that can't get by on its own without God's complete sustenance...or something like that. More likely it's that (if that much is correct) and so much more we could never understand it.



As far as I can remember, no other nation asked him to accept them.



I agree, but that is different than a 'nation' or a 'people', I am not saying God left everyone else for dead, or that he redeemed every one of the Israelites.



God's nature won't allow him to do anything wrong. He does not need to look outside of himself to find Truth, or 'right'ness. So if God made a decision, it was the right one.



I can't look at all the prophets' writings and analyze them in this way right now, but I would say this scripture supports this view:





I didn't notice you go off topic..."Further, I have yet to be convinced that God's sovereignty of necessity means that He must be in absolute control to the point where we have no free will. In fact, I don't see why God can't be in complete control and still give us free will."

I'm starting to wonder how he could not be in control of something, having created it, its tendencies, surroundings, influences, the list goes on...whatever any of us do, we are 'playing right into his hands'...in other words, our freewill will line up with his Ultimate plan.

Not getting involved in this, despite how strongly I feel on it (or maybe BECAUSE I feel so strongly on it...), but I've just gotta say, I love all your posts on this, RunningWolf. Really great stuff.

*chuckles * I am also abstaining, Grace. *high-fives abstaining buddy *

*grins, and high-fives back*

True, but I'm not sure the choosing of one nation, but accepting people from others really leaves it as equivalent to God choosing some people and not the rest.


Okay, but then, well, I don't see it as a good example of election, because this is God choosing one nation, but not, well, un-choosing people outside of it, and so I really don't think it's the same.


Yes, but God's nature won't let Him do wrong, so He does not do wrong. It's not that it's wrong because God does not do it, but that He does not do it because it goes against what He has set as right. It's not necessarily an important difference, I guess, but there is a difference. Further, it means that something appearing to be wrong is, in fact, an argument against believing that God did it, although not a conclusive one, and so I don't think saying 'if God did it, it must be right' qualifies for an argument for Him having done it, but rather what you say when you've come to the conclusion that He did do it, but can't figure out why it's okay.


I would be cautious about using that passage for that argument... If you then say that this means that those who don't come to Him are those He did not choose...I think you then have to say that God did not, in fact, foreknow those people. And that really doesn't fit with God's sovereignty.


Well, I was thinking that the purpose of this thread was to discuss the effects of it on writing, and it's getting more into a discussion on the issue in general, but whatever.

Easy. You create something that's able to control itself, and refuse to control it directly. Voila, you have created something that you have given free will of a sort, at least. And I'm...iffy on the idea that no matter what we do, we're playing into His hands, as if He's a chessmaster, setting up this giant, complicated plan. I do, however, believe that He has a great deal of influence over us, and that often our mistakes are taken and made to cause something greater than we could have ever imagined. He does that a lot. But I'm very doubtful that everything always works out exactly as He wants it, especially given what He says to Israel and Judah through His prophets. So much of it is saying 'come back to Me, I love you' and it doesn't seem to fit a master plan that involves them not coming back to Him. I do believe, though, that He does have everything planned out, and that He isn't revising His plans as we do things, but I also am inclined to believe that because of our failures, we often fail to attain the best possible result. That would also mean that nothing we do actually matters, and to me it doesn't make sense for God to make the choices of the people He loves, the people He made to rule the earth, to mean nothing. But even so, I think it's far different from a lack of free will, and I find it to fit better with my understanding of love, God, and, well, pretty much everything. And it may fit Scripture better, too, if the passages usually used to support a lack of free will can fit with that as well.

But one thing I've considered recently, if we have no choice in whether we accept God or not, does He not love those who He does not call to Himself, or is it somehow done out of love for them?

Finally, there's a Scripture passage I came across this evening that I thought was rather interesting:

What do you make of this? It's relating their actions to not having been baptized by John, and the verse before it talks about other people doing something because they had been baptized by John, but this would seem to suggest that it is, in fact, possible to reject God's purpose for you, although perhaps the actual Greek suggests something else.

One simple question in return. By making a person he knows will sin, does God therefore force them to sin, or not?

We all agree that the answer is no (except the type of people who made me actually study this and decide I was no longer a Calvinist.) God is not forcing anyone to sin, because he desires that all men should believe in him. I should direct you to Romans 5:18, which draws a parallel that can't be any more clear. Just like the sin of one man (Adam) brought judgment on all men (and even the extreme Calvinists believe that this literally does mean all men...), so also by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came to all men for justification of life.

Here's where I get upset. You can interpret so many verses in different ways, and that's fine, but when you commit a logical fallacy or redefine a word in one instance to get the result you want, you're messing with scripture in a way that really bothers me.

The comparison there means that every single person who ever lived since Adam fell under the curse of sin, and also, that every single person who ever lived since Jesus could potentially have accepted that free gift of salvation.

Back to Romans 9. God created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. Knowing that their descendants would be so horribly evil. But it was our choice to sin...and therefore, who are we to say to God, 'Why did you allow us to choose sin?' Doesn't God have the right to make of humanity a race with the capacity to choose both good and evil? What if God, desiring to show both his perfect justice and his loving mercy, has endured the vile actions of those humans who he will send to hell, who he created knowing he would send them to hell? Even us, who answered when he called...were just as sinful as any of the 'vessels of wrath', but he will show compassion to us, and he will harden the others.

Why? That's the big question. The main point of contention between me and Calvinists is why God, who desires to save everyone, if it rests solely on him to choose who he will save, why doesn't he save everyone?

Yes, he chooses the ones who he will redeem and take to heaven...but I would say it's more like he KNOWS the ones who he will redeem and take to heaven. Remember that foreknowledge in Romans 8 comes before predestination.

What did he know about us that would cause him to choose us and not some other sinners?

You're right, this is more of a debate (as in, an argument about beliefs) than I realized, but, my views on this issue will affect my entire philosophy and worldview, which both affect how I will write (I have seen examples of how poor theological beliefs have led to a poor portrayal of God...I do not want to portray God any worse than my best).

I have no wish to continue this discussion the way that it has gone. I had hoped for an edifying discussion where people would present their thoughts, even respond to others' thoughts and why they disagree, and come away thinking about it, and how it effects their writing....though the main purpose was to help me figure out how to approach it in my own writing.

Sorry...I answered your question and added some thoughts that I hoped would help Nemo, because she sent me a message asking about this.

One of my thoughts that I wish to present is that personal opinions aside, logical error in interpreting scripture really bothers me, and I've seen a lot of it in the arguments of both Calvinists and Arminians. Which is why I am neither.

*Smiles* Good post, Luke. I agree, and you spoke a lot of sense.


You know, separating ourselves into Calvinists and Arminians (I am also neither) is something we should not do, I believe.

Paul says:




We mustn't let this bring contentions between us, because that was what was happening way back there in Paul's time. We are all of Christ, we are all His children, so let's rejoice in that and not let contentions divide us.

You see, the problem with this discussion is that we have such different views of God really, that it's hard not to feel frustrated that people think so differently of Him. However, as we're trying to keep it to a writing discussion here, lets try and change our focus, ok. And it's such a doctrinal difference that it does affect your writing, and everything else.

However, I am not sure this is something we should overly worry about when writing. When a person accepts Christ their lives change dramatically. This is God's work of grace in them. You can show that; you can show how we pray, to know His will, to become more like Him, to draw closer to Him. The Bible says that 'God is angry with the wicked everyday' but He also created them. He is just, loving, gentle, fearful, merciful, and He is 'not willing that any should perish'. Being sad, and sorrowful over the way someone is sinning is not the same as begging with them, so if you don't want to portray that, then don't. But please don't show Him as indifferent to the wicked, uncaring, unloving etc. There is an angry side to God, but there is also His merciful side, and I think it's important to show God's salvation to people, and not just His wrath. There is hope for everyone, I believe, in Jesus.


Anyhow, not offence to anyone with what I wrote I hope.

Very good thoughts, Elanor. Thank you.

I cannot entirely agree, Elanor, but no offense at all, you were very gracious, as always. *hugs*

*Laughs* I'm ok with that, Andi. Neither of us agree over this issue at all, and never will I fear. I could have a few things to say in a bolder way, but I think they might cause offence, so I am not going to say them.


The Bible says something about endless debates not being edifying, and I think this is one of those in many ways, which is why I don't discuss it much anymore. I know this isn't a debate, but it can be a conversation that goes 'round and 'round in circles.

Thanks, Luke.

I'm very glad it was helpful, RunningWolf. I was thinking about this topic and God gave me rambles, so I posted them in hopes they would be helpful.

To work this back towards writing, do you have a specific situation in your book where you need to reference God's sovereignty directly, or He talks to someone directly? If you describe the actual scenario, we may be able to help you with the details.

Before I say anything I just want to say sorry if I offend you, this topic is one that I really have a hard time containing myself over...But this is what I think:

So, we know that the Bible is completely true. nothing is wrong, nothing contradicts itself. If it looks that way then we are looking at it wrong and need to ground our ideas in what the Bible say alone, not what some book says, not what we have to say about any topic but what God says about it in the Bible.

So if I say anything, (or anyone for that matter) says something in direct conflict with even just one verse in the Bible then we need to rethink what we believe from a more Biblical point of view.

With that in mind let's look at what the Bible says about God's sovereignty:



Looking at this passage it doesn't really look like God has a "plan B" if we just so happen to get in his way, it seems like God's will is final. I don't think God's going to say "Oh shucks! Billy-Bob just sinned, well I guess I'll have to rethink my plan for the world's future..." I mean really, let's get our act together! There's a lot more I'd like to talk about but lunch is calling...Besides I'd just rant anyway

Lastly don't you think there are more important issues to talk about in your book then sovereignty? I mean, yes God's sovereignty is a key theme in God's nature, but knowing it doesn't give you your salvation. I should think if we talk about how to portray anything it should be how to more effectively preach the Gospel in and through our books.

Those are good thoughts, Josiah. I'm pretty sure I agree with everything you said...we need to make sure we believe the Bible over our own speculations...I'm done debating about it here anyway.

As for your last paragraph...I think God's sovereignty has a lot to do with just about everything, and I can see where some books were lacking because of an (in my opinion at least) improper understanding of God's Sovereignty....If I want to portray Salvation properly, I ought to understand God's plan for it as well as possible-don't you think?



Well...I just knew it would come up, really, but I suppose one place it will apply (when I get there) is when some of the Werewolves repent - I thought I would portray this as an example of God pursuing and catching those he loved. My guess for how he did this is that he appears to Lycanis, the first of the Werewolves to repent, and opens Lycanis' eyes to his (God's) glory, and works a miracle in Lycanis, changing his heart so that he can lead others of his kind to follow God's calling...I'm not trying to preach Calvinism, I'm not trying to preach predestination (though I'm inclined to believe in that), I merely want to portray salvation as accurately as possible...I'm sure there are other scenarios it will be useful, but- *get's tired of all the red and adds Lycanis to dictionary* -I can't think of or haven't discovered them yet...One thing I can think of to do is look closely at other times God has done things like this (he blinded Saul so that his 'eyes' might be opened, for one). Any more thoughts on this are really appreciated Aubrey (or anyone else)!

Thoughts...

I do of course agree that God does those things. He does sometimes specially turn someone to him.

But as I don't agree with the irresistible grace part of Calvinism, I believe that's an exception, not a rule. God does not have to be all-dominating or all-absent from the process of a sinner choosing to repent. The Holy Ghost comes to us after we're saved...he doesn't typically 'work in our hearts' in such a controlling way so that we will repent.

Thanks, Luke. I guess I meant thoughts on how to apply the theme of salvation or whatever to that situation and others like that...if that makes any sense.

If you want to write about God specially showing a person the way to him, that's fine, but that makes God a character in your story and it gets a whole lot more complicated. Plus, if you make the point that such a case is the only way somebody can ever choose God (as some people I know have done), you'll have people like me disagreeing and non-Christians rolling their eyes at the apparent elitism.

If you write about someone learning the truth from another character, or from the Bible, which is how most of us find God, that's still tricky but mainly because it's hard to make it seem real and not totally cheesy.

Just remember that less is more when it comes to these things. We don't have to write sermons to make a good point.

And also remember that however somebody finds God, he did move first. He died for us and gave us the Bible, after all. What more do we need, to believe?