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Telepathy
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Author:  Melody Kondrael [ May 4th, 2010, 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Telepathy
Mindy E. wrote:
And you've piqued my curiosity. ;) How do you think telepathy is creepy?

(And if Lady E. would rather, we could continue that discussion over pm. I don't know if this counts as spamming her thread...)


Before I get started, let me explain that if I do not return to this thread for a couple days, that doesn't mean I forgot ya, it means that a family member took away my computer for 6-8 hours of the day so I couldn't multi-task knitting and HW/etc... ;) Anyway, knitting project should be done soon so that I have more time to attend to writing, forums, etc. :)

I was not completely clear originally; I did not hit the animal topic, using blanket statements (something I ought not to use). I addressed animal communication back in the original thread.

::back much later in the day::

Okay, I've analyzed this situation, and this is the real problem:


Did you know that there are people out there who really do think the Force is real, and label themselves as Jedi?

That's how real a story can become to some people.

This hands us, the writers, a great power - and a great burden.

Real is good.

Truth is paramount.

You can sacrifice reality for story: you cannot sacrifice truth.

See, what we're dealing with is - how far can we stray from reality before it gets dangerous?

You must understand, fantasy is all right. Fantasy merely is creating an alternate form of reality which your reader temporarily steps into.

This alternate form of reality must not become the only form of reality that your reader believes.

Hence the problem of Jedism - it's so real - it's actually very similar to Christianity.

But that is not the original topic--telepathy.

Telepathy, as far as we know it, is not part of reality.

Telepathy is the communication of two minds through thought rather than words or body language.

In the (book) Lord of the Rings, the Ringbearers are permitted to use their Rings to telepathically speak among themselves, but this is only mentioned once (near the end of RotK if anyone's interested).

Telepathy typically appears in sci-fi, often connected with mystical energy fields such as the Force (Star Wars universe)

Hence is the problem.

Telepathy is often mystic. It often relies on 'psychic powers' (whatever those are) rather than cold hard science or else directly God-given abilities.

To many people, telepathy is automatically assigned to the new-age realm. I am afraid that I do that as well. I have heard the worst about it, and consistently freak out about anything that seems like it.

So, telepathy is not part of reality. However, it does not break any truths which we know.

Therefore, I cannot defend a position of 'no telepathy'. I cannot defend a position of 'all telepathy is okay'.

What I will warn writers, then, is to analyze your motivations for including telepathy, as well as the necessity of it to your plot. Avoid any hint towards mysticism - but don't take upon yourself the sole responsibility for some unknown reader's fall into New Age philosophy because ultimately, it is their choice and you can only do the best you can.

Ain't fantasy fun? :cool:

...And the real moral to this story is: don't try to start a discussion about things like telepathy while you're running back and forth from the kitchen to check on the pizza every couple minutes like I was doing last night... :roll:
Author:  Seer of Endor [ May 8th, 2010, 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Hope you don't mind my asking: what thread did this conversation start on?
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ May 8th, 2010, 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Um, Lady E.'s latest story excerpt thread. I don't know the thread title off the top of my head. I kind of derailed it, so I took it to another thread. :)
Author:  Seer of Endor [ May 8th, 2010, 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Ok, now I've got the context of the post. Thanks!
And actually, telepathy is a real thing, extremely rare, but real. Many cases involve demonic facilitation, but there's probably a few cases without it.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ May 8th, 2010, 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Seer wrote:
Ok, now I've got the context of the post. Thanks!
And actually, telepathy is a real thing, extremely rare, but real. Many cases involve demonic facilitation, but there's probably a few cases without it.


I'm fairly certain that Jay has done a fairly large amount of research on the subject, and he agrees as well, I think. (To an extent, of course! ;) )

My personal feeling is that, if telepathy were a real thing, which could be performed by skilled persons without demonic intervention, then there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, as far as I can tell.

That being said, I highly doubt the existence of telepathy without demonic involvement. My opinion is based solely on my own limited knowledge of the human mind, but that knowledge has at least been often evaluated.
Author:  Whythawye [ May 10th, 2010, 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Neil of Erk wrote:
I'm fairly certain that Jay has done a fairly large amount of research on the subject, and he agrees as well, I think. (To an extent, of course! ;) )

My personal feeling is that, if telepathy were a real thing, which could be performed by skilled persons with demonic intervention, then there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, as far as I can tell.

That being said, I highly doubt the existence of telepathy with demonic involvement. My opinion is based solely on my own limited knowledge of the human mind, but that knowledge has at least been often evaluated.


I have, in coordination with my family (mostly my mom). And I do. :)

I am confused by what you mean here, did you possibly say 'with' instead of 'without' a couple times?

On earth, currently, without demonic influence, with technology, we are able to communicate with computers directly with our minds. Instructions are limited to emotions, and basic manipulations like push, pull, etc. But it does work.

There is such a thing as 'energy' in the human body and in the earth. 'Meridians' and 'pressure points' are very real. This is not demonic: it is part of God's creation. People who are skilled at manipulating these things can actually telepath between each other to about the same level as I was talking about above without technological assistance.

Of course many people use demonic power to achieve the same thing, predictably.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ May 10th, 2010, 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Neil of Erk wrote:
I'm fairly certain that Jay has done a fairly large amount of research on the subject, and he agrees as well, I think. (To an extent, of course! ;) )

My personal feeling is that, if telepathy were a real thing, which could be performed by skilled persons with demonic intervention, then there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, as far as I can tell.

That being said, I highly doubt the existence of telepathy with demonic involvement. My opinion is based solely on my own limited knowledge of the human mind, but that knowledge has at least been often evaluated.


I have, in coordination with my family (mostly my mom). And I do. :)

I am confused by what you mean here, did you possibly say 'with' instead of 'without' a couple times?

On earth, currently, without demonic influence, with technology, we are able to communicate with computers directly with our minds. Instructions are limited to emotions, and basic manipulations like push, pull, etc. But it does work.

There is such a thing as 'energy' in the human body and in the earth. 'Meridians' and 'pressure points' are very real. This is not demonic: it is part of God's creation. People who are skilled at manipulating these things can actually telepath between each other to about the same level as I was talking about above without technological assistance.

Of course many people use demonic power to achieve the same thing, predictably.


Pardon me. I wrote "with" instead of "without". I've corrected that now.

While we can communicate with computers via our thoughts, my understand of the technology is that advanced programs are able to sense and interpret our brain function, translating the electric activity.

I tend to think of mental telepathy as different than that. Rather than interpreting the physical functions of a persons physical brain, I've always thought of it as a person being able to access another person "mind". Not the physical brain, the "mind", if you understand me.
Author:  Seer of Endor [ May 10th, 2010, 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Neil of Erk wrote:

While we can communicate with computers via our thoughts, my understanding of the technology is that advanced programs are able to sense and interpret our brain function, translating the electric activity.

I tend to think of mental telepathy as different than that. Rather than interpreting the physical functions of a persons physical brain, I've always thought of it as a person being able to access another person "mind". Not the physical brain, the "mind", if you understand me.

I've generally been inclined to agree with you, Neil. However, some part of me always thought it could be possible apart from demonic intervention for someone somewhere. On the other hand, I also believe that people can use telepathy with demonic intervention without purposefully enlisting the demonic assistance. This brings into question if telepathy really can exist apart from demonic assistance at all, or if those who do it without enlisting demonic help are still using demonic power unwittingly.

In Christ,
Jordan
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ May 12th, 2010, 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Sorry I disappeared from this thread - I didn't have time for a couple days to get into a theological debate, but I'm around now. :)

Disclaimer: I really haven't done any 'real' research.

Yes, if telepathy were possible without touching the spiritual realm, then it'd be okay.

I don't know if it is.

I could envision a book version of it, btw, by translating those electrical signals...

I think that depending who's talking/writing, telepathy means multiple things. Some people just mean communication, some people mean 'opening your mind to someone else to communicate' and that's where it gets creepy-perilous. Controlled versus uncontrolled. I've been taught never to allow access to my mind to anyone (i.e. that's why hypnosis is a Very Bad Idea) because it's dangerous.

If you set up very clear, very tight limits in a book (theoretically) of why it works and how/when/where/etc, then one could get away with it. Theoretically.

Also theoretically, it would be interesting to see the evil characters do it wrong, and get in trouble for it. Theoretically, again. ;)

I think I'm going to leave it be, though. I have enough forms of communication, I don't need to deal with it. ;) (plus, it's awfully hard to show in a film. In Star Wars episode 5 they cut back and forth between characters to imply telepathy, but it really didn't look right, IMO.)
Author:  Whythawye [ May 12th, 2010, 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
I understand there to be several different kinds of telepathy that people use.

One kind is very brain oriented. Mechanical.

Another is the Mind, but this is hard to define.

Another is the Spirit. This happens in real life in various ways, but not really like some fantasy people have done it I think. Also hard to describe.

Etc.

It all depends on what you mean by the word, of course, whether it is possible, and whether it is alright.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ May 12th, 2010, 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
And this brings up something I've been meaning to ask about on here...I put it in another thread to keep things neat & tidy. :)
Author:  Lord Kieren Mimetes [ May 18th, 2010, 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
I think telepathy is possible with spiritual intervention. I haven't done any research, so I'm not sure about it otherwise.

My grandparents and other people I know have woken up in the night and gotten an urge to pray for certain people. Later they find out that this person was in a car accident or other mishap at the exact time they woke up. So if you classify this under spiritual telepathy, then that is definitely very real.
Author:  Armorbearer [ May 19th, 2010, 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
I agree, there is always demonic influence in this fallen world, but the demons and satan have nothing of their own. That is to say, God can do that same thing, and better. Jesus told Nathaniel what he said when there was no way he could have heard it, I see that as falling into what could be called "telepathy". So, can demons do it? i agree with the consensus of yes, they can. Can God do it, like Griffin was mentioning with the spiritual aspect? I believe he does. as for being able to do that sort of thing with no supernatural intervention... I haven't done enough research on the subject to know. I just know that with this sort of thing, we need to test the spirits to see if it is glorifying to God. If it is, i see no problem using it.

P.S. I'm not sure if I got the point of this thread or not, so if this is all coming out of nowhere and makes no sense, feel free to disregard it. ;)
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ May 29th, 2010, 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
I love this topic!

It is my opinion that telepathy could very well be possible without supernatural intervention.

People have different magnetic fields around their bodies, and some cases I've read about have concluded that with some people (especially identical twins) they are able in ways to communicate over distances.

Not in so many words, but through emotions, and just a soulful knowing. (if that makes any sense.) I'm not sure that that is so very different from telepathy.

And I don't think that something being impossible in this world makes it wrong in another world. Just my thoughts. I haven't given extensive thought to any of it.;)
Author:  Neil of Erk [ May 29th, 2010, 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Mindy E. wrote:
People have different magnetic fields around their bodies, and some cases i've read about have concluded that with some people (especially identical twins) they are able in ways to communicate over distances.


Well, what I think your getting at is that certain people are sensitive to the magnetic fields of certain other people, and while I'd agree with that, I don't think it could be considered telepathy. It's more a way of sensing a persons emotional qualities (something animals are famous for), whereas telepathy, IMHO, is an expression of thoughts, rather than feelings.

But you have it something there. Although, I don't think it's significant enough that a person could actually be fully aware the process is occurring, and it requires a certain proximity. Some of this stuff is also really emotion, when a person knows someone else so well that they can predict them, and so, they can guess accurately their emotional at long distances.

But a lot of it has to do with the leading of the Spirit as well. And, there a certain people who are naturally more perceptive of the spiritual climate, if you will. They usually become either God's Prophets or the Devil's spiritualists.

So, don't read to much in the magnetic field phenomenon. It's like body language, just less well known.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ June 1st, 2010, 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Willow Wenial wrote:
And I don't think that something being impossible in this world makes it wrong in another world.


That's what I keep thinking! I try to tell these other people (ahem) about werewolves and such, and they won't listen! *sulk*

Sorry. :D Anyway, I have a telepathy in my story (with my DragonRiders) where they not only hear each other's thoughts, (if the minds aren't shielded) but may involuntarily catch 'glimpses', so to speak, of other's emotions, even those of non-Riders. Again with the "what's impossible/wrong in our world may not be in another" .
Author:  Whythawye [ August 27th, 2011, 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
I had the urge to go dig up an old thread, and found this one, which was an old favorite of mine. :)

And I want to elaborate a bit on something...

I have experienced telepathy. Not like in the honorable Lady E's book, but still what I would call telepathy nonetheless. It's like a sync. I'm able to know not only how someone is doing, but I'm able to do a sort of backwards prediction in a sense. We can talk together with only minimal helps from real words. Even when we don't talk we can connect to each other. It's hard to explain, but quite real and very natural.

Besides the fact that half of everything I say with my sister in the room occurs in her mind simultaneously. We often just don't say anything to let the other person say it for us. It's beyond coincidence. I wouldn't necessarily call this telepathy, but I would propose that it is similar enough to imply that more advanced forms are possible.

Possible enough to permit it fully in your world's cobha at least.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ August 28th, 2011, 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Sounds like the caveman in Stephen Lawhead's The Bone House. Definitely interesting...

eru
Author:  Mistress Kidh [ July 26th, 2012, 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Note: My grandfather (I think it was him) communicated with his brother when he was overseas by 'telepathy'. I am not sure how far he went with it, but I do know that when he wanted to talk him, he would 'tell him' to call (he couldn't call his brother because he was a soldier or something like that, his brother had to call him), and he would. :)
Author:  Lady PenWarrior [ July 31st, 2012, 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Interesting topic. I'm doing a blog series where I and a friend of mine are the main characters, and each of us have a certain 'power'. It's not magical, more unexplained/superhero-y. Mine's telepathy, so obviously this topic caught my attention. I hadn't thought at all this deeply into telepathy, and it hadn't even remotely ocurred to me to do so. I'm glad some people have! It's been enlightening to read this thread over.
Author:  Beowulf [ August 7th, 2012, 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Ray Bradbury actually captured some of the nifty effects of Telepathy in his book The Martian Chronicles, in which humans attempt to explore and eventually colonize the planet mars, and in the process, lose tons of rockets and people to the martians, who aren't very fond of their visitors. The Martians use telepathy to make the humans think that they are back at home in one instance, and then when they are comfortable, the martians strike. I could see somebody having the ability to interpret body language and carelessly disclosed information as a tool for understanding what someone is thinking, but I don't think it's actually possible to know exactly what they are thinking by "looking into their mind" without demonic powers. I find first of all the idea that intervention with demonic powers as an evil practice as interesting. Paul shows that the practices of demons is misleading (1 Timothy 4:1) and in James 3:15, we are told that jealousy and selfish ambition comes from that which is demonic. So there's our proof that we should try to avoid telepathy, unless the being that is telepathic is something other than human.
The idea isn't that the inhuman beings are simply innocent from demonic involvement, but that we humans are prohibited from it, unlike them. It might be good to check me on this, but I find it fine to have aliens that are telepathic come in and mess with a human's mind, but not vice-versa, because we humans seem to lack that ability all together, for only God knows the heart. As I said before, we are able to understand one another's train of thought through different hints such as actions, but I don't find it possible to "read" another's mind.

Just thoughts =) Please critique if y'all disagree.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ August 7th, 2012, 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
Good thoughts, Beowulf. What are your thoughts about humans in a different world using telepathy? Mine do, but in their world it's allowed and even condoned.
Author:  Beowulf [ August 15th, 2012, 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Telepathy
That sounds interesting, by allowed, what do you mean? I think that a book which crosses the bounds into witchcraft is dancing on a fine line between that which is morally acceptable, and that which isn't. I can't see any real solution to telepathy other than that of interaction with spirits which is a dangerous area to spend time near, because there is indeed a risk that the idea of witchcraft could be belittled into a minuscule and somewhat immoral tool used by certain less religious people. I tend to disagree with such an assertion and thus consider it a little unwise to use it unless it isn't done by humans.
Really though, if you stay short of anything that goes beyond the physical realm of human ability (such as telepathy) I think you're safe. You could use technology, or extreme logic to come to certain unpredictable solutions which tend to bring about the same sort of excitement.
I mustn't discourage you if that's something you disagree about though, because I understand that stories take a while to write, I would simply recommend reestablishing the instances which rely on telepathy and replace it with some sort of technological advancement of some kind.
And of course, if the society in which you have captured your story is one which is recognized as fallen because of the involvement of demons, then I think it might make sense, and I don't think you'd have to redo anything.

Forgive me if I am discouraging you in any way, those are simply my thoughts. =)
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